Timing Rationalism...

I can never seem to time Rationalism correctly so it is my second tree.

I always end up having to go with Commerce or Patronage opener.

Any tips on achieving this?

If you really want you can use the option of saving SPs.

But if you dont: From my personal experiences Rationalism is near impossible to unlock as a second tree. Maybe others know some strategies, but from every game I've played I just don't do it. But don't be too caught up, Commerce can be pretty powerful as your 'filler' tree and Patronage just as much. Not to mention the starting three trees

If it is possible I'd like to know as well as I would also prefer it as my second tree. I always just assumed it wasn't so I've been happy to take policies from other trees (which help me just as much in any case)

Don't really want to save SP's as I know it can be done without.

I think it's probably got something to do with not building too many culture buildings early on.

I have come close to unlocking it as second tree, but always seem to miss out by a few turns.

I don't know; I tend to go wide early and build hardly any Culture buildings (apart from Monument) before Renaissance... but I've never managed to do it without policy-saving. That said, I've never actually tried as I actually like the Commerce tree and indeed hope to get at least the right-hand side finished before Rationalism.

You can do so if you:

1. Don't pop a culture ruin (I've seen Maddjinn in his Babylon LP get screwed by one turn because he popped one).

2. Not go Tradition. It's really hard (though not impossible) to get the timing down if you went the Tradition 4 cities approach. You'll NEED a very early NC to do so. Or at least, delay Legalism for a while. Consider:

With Legalism: +3 CPT in the capital and +(2*x) CPT where x is the number of cities, max of 4 because of the monuments. If you have four cities, that's +11 CPT.

With Liberty (2 policies deep): +4 CPT. +12 if you put in a monument in each city.

3.) Plant 5 or so cities early on and gun for science. Works great with Maya and Messenger of the Gods.

The timing is really tight. When I first attempted the Legalism trick with Siam, I missed it by one turn because one of my cities auto-assigned an Artist Specialist for a few turns. That's probably my best science game ever. Finished on turn 268.

It can be done, even with 4 City Tradition opener, no need to delay Legalism.
- Don't build Amphitheater
- Don't pick pantheon that give you more culture.
- Don't be friend/ally with Culture city state.
- Focus on building NC (can be built after 3rd or 4th city)
- You are likely to enter Renaissance via Acoustic (quickest route).

The perfect timing will be finishing Oracle the turn you enter Renaissance.

If you can time it so it's your seventh policy on top of getting The Oracle... DAMN! That's a wicked boost in science right there!

an easy way (in theory) is to build more cities (and not build any monuments / culture buildings, not befriend or ally any cultural city states, and no cultural beliefs). Even with the tradition tree you're pretty safe if you have 5 cities or more, yet 4 (or even 3 cities) is doable but tight.

Growth (Science) is important here. Civil service gives major boost, so don't neglect it. Be prepared to it if you do have some river tiles. Having 6-7 early archers will also speed this up in many cases, since they will wander around and pick 1-2 Maritime alliances for you. When you reach education, you might need to rush one or two universities with cash to be there in time. It is doable on almost any map. NC should be there between t.60-80

Prebuilding amphitheaters (but not finishing them until you hit rationalism) may be a good thing to do, since you want a fast passage through that policy branch.

Sometimes, when your science and culture are booming in early game, you can afford opening Patronage/Commerce and still be able to open rationalism around t.100. So it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Just had a game when I hit rationalism on the exact turn and thought of this thread. It was even Tradition with two cities (and one puppet). Definitely possible as long as you don't have any heavy focus on culture. Osamu's list is good.

BTW, why not just enable policy saving? It isn't like it breaks the game since 1. You are likely only a handful of turns away from Rationalism anyway and 2. Opportunity cost. For every turn you hold onto policy points, you are not getting the benefit of using them.