Honour first? Farming the barbarians

Xiao Xiong said:

So in considering all your comments, I think I have arrived at this strategy:

-- Go for tradition opener first, to get the 3 culture points ASAP, and level up on the social policies faster

-- Once I've explored enough of the map, or if my scout upgrades to an archer, then grab honour opener and earn culture from clearing out barbs

After that either continue down tradition or honour depending on the situation, or switch to liberty and run it through to the end, before coming back to tradition or honour. I like the idea of popping opera houses with legalism.

Also I like having the honour opener done, because you never know when things are going to go to all out war, and if that happens it's nice to be able to hit the adjacent unit bonus just before launching the counter-attack.

My theory here is that advancing social policies faster than the AI does is a lasting benefit, especially if it can be worked in to something you have to do anyway, like clearing barbs.

I guess the situation where I would NOT follow this route is if my starting area is so crowded that the AI is likely to take care of most of the barbs.

Click to expand...

To my mind, you understand perfectly. Taking the Tradition opener first, then taking Honor and Liberty after that works fine. My experience is that you will fill another SP tree or two long before you move beyond the first two SPs in Tradition The reason for that is most players forestall adopting Legalism until that policy will give them Opera Houses at the least.
There are areas that are left unsettled even on a crowded map. Look to the icy wastes that lie to the North and South. A relatively cheap Caravel can harvest Barbs from a camp in those locales well into the game. You can replace the Caravel with a Frigate when available.

You're overestimating the culture you're getting from barbs, and underestimating the rest of the Honour tree.
What about Military Caste? +2 culture and +1 happiness for each garrisonned unit. That culture also goes to town expansion. This is a far better and more durable deal than having to chase barbs around the map.
Those barbs will be pushed to the fringes of the map soon anyway, and you don't want to pay upkeep for units you're just using to scour the map for barbs. Not worth it.

The Honour tree is great, though. Not if you're isolated, but if you're having pesky neighbours it's great. You can easily get away with running a heavy defecit once you have the Honour finisher, since the money from killing units makes up for it.

For early rushes Honour is not so good. Honour's bonuses - except for the opener - only pay off over time, unlike those of the Liberty tree.

fmlizard2 said:

Honor stinks for anything but an early domination push. Seldom is a war decided based upon little bonuses your units may have.

You win by building a stronger foundation than your opponent. If you build a bigger and better empire, the battles will handle themselves. Take Tradition or Liberty.

Click to expand...

Yep. Having a strong army is obviously great. But if you have neither production to build it with nor economy to buy it with, how exactly does it help you?

binhthuy71 said:

The other thing is that using this strategy with the Aztecs will gain even more Culture per Barb.

Click to expand...

Aztecs and Germans are special cases. Mongols can be quite cool on low-mid difficulties. Barrack trained chariots chasing the barbs and super fast logistics for keshiks. On higher difficulties delaying Chivalry beeline isn't worth it. Not even for Songhai.

Not recommend in my opinion, all you need 12 culture to get first tree, and 45-50 for second, I almost never take third. Also honor like all of them are very strong.

I believe all those policies were designed just what kind of start you get. You start surrounded by 2-3 sickos warmongers, go for Honor. Tradition, well, if your capital is truly good, lots of river, Liberty, if your Capital isnt so strong and you need two cities. Thats what Im trying to follow anyway.

Optional said:

For early rushes Honour is not so good. Honour's bonuses - except for the opener - only pay off over time, unlike those of the Liberty tree.

Click to expand...

A free early general and extra production speed when building melee units is not good for early rush? That general is almost essential for any early rush.

I find that specific policy - Military Tradition? - coming a bit too early, when I still have only one city, so a general + extra units will give me unit support problems.
I first need a couple of towns in before I can pick this, but then I would be already very close to a general normally anyway.
I far prefer the right side of the Honour tree, especially Military Caste, which actually helps more in peace time than in war.
What perhaps also matters is that I have a preference for allying a military City State for my units, so my cities can concentrate on other things.
Granted, I'm more a builder than a warmonger in my style of play.

CYZ said:

A free early general and extra production speed when building melee units is not good for early rush? That general is almost essential for any early rush.

Click to expand...

+1 from Republic maybe sucks, but this early Warrior Code doesn't give you much more and first GG will come quickly anyway. Steel/Chivalry/Machinery by turn 80, on the other hand, is not something Honor can give you, when Liberty can. There is no competition, IMO.

The Pilgrim said:

+1 from Republic maybe sucks, but this early Warrior Code doesn't give you much more and first GG will come quickly anyway. Steel/Chivalry/Machinery by turn 80, on the other hand, is not something Honor can give you, when Liberty can. There is no competition, IMO.

Click to expand...

I said early rush.

So you won't have a general unless you've been warmongering right of the bat, which is a poor strategy to begin with.

So for a warrior UU or swordsmen rush, that GG is very usefull. You gotta wait until your second rush for it to pop otherwise.

If I'm rushing early the GG is either my second/third policy (for the production bonus) or fourth/five policy (supporting my first rush army).


Otherwise, yes, it's weak if it comes later or if you don't need it. If I just want the xp bonus I usually pop it for a GA

From my experience (immortal mostly) if swords rush is possible it is possible without GG. Awesome when city spammer spawns next to you and settles low-defense unprotected puppets for you. If the neighbors are kicking out pikes right away you're stuck until LS/crossbows UU/knights UU anyways. Sacrificing long term goals for an early GG doesn't seems like a good deal to me.

Xiao Xiong said:

Lately I have been getting honour first, just the first policy, and then following the liberty tree.

Click to expand...

To get back to the opening post, this is how it started, and I think it overlooks the main qualities of the Honour tree.
The main qualities for me are the durable qualities.

A Great General is a huge boost to any military campaign. Yes it's possible without it, but 20% extra for every unit who is part of your campaign is not to be sneezed at.
But that's not where the real quality of the Honour tree lies for me. I'm always getting rushed early by the AI before I have the chance to do anything myself, and dealing with that rush + the ordinary dealings with barbs will already get me a Great General, if not I will be close to it. You wouldn't take the Honour tree for that, neither as for the culture against barbs.

The better Honour policies are lower down, and they're durable. To run down the tree, from the bottom up:
The finisher: Earn gold for every killed unit. The longer the game lasts, the more units you'll kill. Makes a big difference financially.
Professional army: Cheaper upgrades and +1 happy for every defensive building. The longer the game lasts, the more you will upgrade, saving you lots of money over time. Also more defensive buildings will come available, but even if you build just walls it's nice enough.
Military Caste: +2 culture and +1 happy for every city with a garrison. Again, a lasting effect. Strong.
The first Honour policies are less durable:
Military Tradition (?): +10% strength for every flanked unit. This one is still durable, of course.
Warrior Code: Instant Great General + 15% discount on melee units. The discount will probably save quite some beakers over the course of the game, the general... it depends a lot on what's going on in your game when you need it. You'll get one without Honour anyway, that's for sure.
Honour starter: Get culture for barbs + barb camp notifications. This one fizzes out quickly.

No, for me the best Honour policies are the lower down ones, not the first ones. And it's about durability. The effect of the Honour tree you'll see over time. It's very different from the Liberty tree: pouff, a worker, pouff, a settler, pouff, a golden age, pouff, a great person. It's instant satisfaction. Not that the Liberty bonuses don't have effect over time as well, no, they're durable as well, I see that, but the effect is still much more immediate than with the Honour tree.
Perhaps it's why the Honour tree is less popular, I'm not sure, but I think the tree gets underestimated.

yes. i have been loving this opening .. 1 archer per camp .. especially if youre going for domination. my current deity game with the celts i am farming 3 camps.. it works out to be about 3 culture per turn and the archers generally stay garrisoned.. then clearing for CS's.. i find this style spreads your units around nicely too.

~ the xp is good and youll quickly gain a general

and yeah.. you need a good army to deal with deity enemies

Aspon said:

the honor track is one of the best in the game why people neglect it I just don't get. I almost never open with any other policy track and would be surprised if many other immortal or deity players did either.

the plus 50% experience is a crucial boost. also the plus culture and happiness for the staioned units. the free general early is a nice boost much easier to take citys. added combat bonus for units in near tiles. and reduced upgrade costs. if you plan on having a small cultural win and have enemys on your island or pang then it helps get very quick upgraded units which is essential because you cannot afford many units. or if you planb to go large and far the extra happiness and culture boost is huge not to mention the drastic speed boost to promos and combatt effectiveness.

all policy tracks contain boost. but I openly say Honor is without doubt the best track in the game the only reason I can see for ignoring it is if your trying a unique challenge for yourself or if you got your own island all to yourself and plan to never war.

the idea of taking honor just to get the culture for killing barbs boost then not exploring is manifestly absurd. why waste such a powerful policy track?
tradition and liberty are nice but in no way compete with honor.

Click to expand...

Actually, it is almost always Tradition for me, or liberty if I have alot of room. Honor only happens once in a blue moon when I have to fight first-thing.

This thread is a year old lol. Haven't the social policies gone through a good bit of change since then?

DeeBo said:

This thread is a year old lol. Haven't the social policies gone through a good bit of change since then?

Click to expand...

Ha, didn't realize it was a necro thread.

Egad necro.

Tradition is a way better combination with honor because you are going to stay small and improve you're military and then atack someone .

If you pick the opening tradition you can use the comba:

oligarchy for the free garison unit + honor +1 happiness +1 culture for each garison. and put a lot of scouts into you're cities

Olso if you are going to fight building opera houses is the least thing you will do so you can use the free culture buildings for opera houses will help you to complete autocracy

Xiao: "-- Go for tradition opener first, to get the 3 culture points ASAP, and level up on the social policies faster

-- Once I've explored enough of the map, or if my scout upgrades to an archer, then grab honour opener and earn culture from clearing out barbs.

This is basically how I play my games, if I get a culture ruin it's a win. I do like this with the Aztecs and Maya, it's fun on large maps and 1-2 less civs and 2-4 less CS. Just running around and chasing culture, it gives you something to do between many, many boring turns.

And I'm not like tommynt, winning in any way possible as noone ever done before. He plays in his own, very lonely class.

I play Emp/Imm and like to play a peaceful game, if it lasts for 323 turns, I'm sure tommynt wouldn't disagree as he does the same on Deity, time after time. But 150 turns faster.

Even if I read what players like tommynt does, I don't play that way and I never ever set a goal for fastest finish in my games.

I play for fun and have 2000 hrs played.

You find tommynt's Let's Play on his profile, I think, I'll check.

And don't listen to Optional, he still thinks he's playing Civ4.