What if the Europeans hadn't discovered the New World until 1692?

Traitorfish · Aug 13, 2014

madviking said:
i just remembered that i read in 1493 that potatoes starting becoming a major staple crop in europe beginning in the 16th century and taking off in the 17th century. so if potatoes aren't around in 1692 i imagine that the growth rate of europe would be much less.

Probably, although potatoes weren't taken up in a big way until the 18th century, so it might not be a dramatic difference. (They were common before then, but mostly seen in garden plots and served more as a guarantee against crop failure than a staple crop.) The 19th century was really the Century of the Potato, when it pretty much served as the nutritional foundation of European industrialisation, so there'd still be time for it become widely enough adopted to fulfil the same function, especially if we're looking at a less-rapidly developing capitalist economy due to the lack of American commodities like coffee and sugar.

madviking · Aug 13, 2014

eh we're kinda grasping at straws here but i dunno if we can say if potatoes would've been more quickly adopted if they came later. but it's worth mentioning as it's just one of many things that changed global history just in the columbian exchange: the aforementioned silver trade, guano, etc.

essentially, the world would've developed very differently if the columbian exchange was delayed by two hundred years than it did in otl.

Traitorfish · Aug 13, 2014

madviking said:
eh we're kinda grasping at straws here but i dunno if we can say if potatoes would've been more quickly adopted if they came later.

It's definitively speculative, but one of the unusual things about potatoes compared to other New World crops is that they were adopted in a more deliberate way than others. Tomatoes and such just sort of caught on because liked the taste of them, but in the 18th century landowners went out of their way to encourage the cultivation of potatoes, because it allowed them to sustain the same labour on more land, giving less land over to cash crops. You're still looking at butterflies and such, that's true, but it does allow us to make some relatively informed guesses about how the potato might work out.

awesome · Aug 16, 2014

if i remember correctly, at least some yams are native to the old world, so those could have been adopted in time, just like the potato was.

Domen · Aug 17, 2014

As to the other part, the Norse settlement in North America was almost certainly abandoned or died out to starvation/weather/disease.

In Greenland there is actually evidence that at least some settlements were wiped out by Inuits, not died out.

In North America we have written sources which say about combats between Vikings and Skraelings (natives).

===========================================

Description of a clash which took place between Vikings and Skraelings during Thorfinn Karlsefni's expedition to Vinland:

(...) Thereupon Karlsefni and his men took red shields and displayed them. The Skraelings sprang from thir boats, and they met and fought together. Sharp rain of missiles fell down, because the Skraelings had slings and bows. Karlsefni and Snorri noticed, that using long wooden bars they were lifting large round items, almost as large as a sheep's stomach, dark blue to black in colour. They were throwing those items over the heads of Karsefni's men, and those items were making terrific noise when falling down.

That thing to such an extent terrified Karlsefni and his people, that they could only think about escaping along the bank of the river, because it seemed to them that the crowd of Skraelings was pushing on them from all sides. They did not stop, until they reached some rocks, where they stopped and stood their ground for some time, but then started running away again.

Freydis Eriksdottir came out of doors and seeing that Karlsefni and the men were fleeing, she shouted:

"Why are you running from these wretches? I thought, that such courageous men were going to slaughter them like cattle. If only I had a weapon, I would have fought better than any of you."

But they did not react to her words, so Freydhis tried to join them in their run, but could not keep up in escape since she was pregnant. She reached the edge of a nearby forest, and the Skraelings were just behind her.

Then she saw a dead man before her. It was Thorbrand, son of Snorri, his skull was pierced by blade of a flat stone, a naked sword lied beside him. Freydis snatched it up and as the Skraelings came close she let fall her shift and slapped her breasts with the naked blade. Seeing this the Skraelings were frightened and ran to their boats and rowed away. Then Karlsefni and his men came close to her, and praised her bravery.

Two men of Karlsefni and four Skraelings were killed. But Karlsefni suffered a defeat. It now seemed clear to Karlsefni and his people that though this was an attractive country their lives there would be filled with fear and turmoil because of the Skraelings and so they decided to leave. (...)

This is how settlement established in Vinland by Karlsefni's expedition was abandoned. That took place in ca. 1010 AD.

Gucumatz · Aug 17, 2014

The likelihood of the Vikings being wiped out by inuits is generally considered quite low, considering there is basically no archaeological evidence to support the sagas battles - and considering quite an extensive oral history of skirmishes of inuits, there doesn't seem to have been any support from that side of the literature either. The only archaeological evidence sometimes brought up is the remains of a small farm which was burned down in the last years, but no evidence of any weapons - or remains on the site and considering the Inuit, there would have been remains. Even in the last reports of boat visits to Greenland, there was no news of the sort - but the fact there was little transportation of people/goods in the last years suggests more that the population slowly dwindled out, most likely the majority of which can be accounted to emmigration.

Its much harder to make any real deductions on what happened to the population in Vinland.

Domen · Aug 17, 2014

Battles described in sagas - including that from my post above - took place in North America, not in Greenland. But this "battle" was a skirmish in which 6 people died. And you want to find archaeological evidence that it took place?

Archaeologists had problems with finding evidence that the battle of Grunwald 1410 took place. So thoroughly the battlefield was cleaned up by local peasants etc. after the end of the battle. And you want to find traces of a skirmish?

Its much harder to make any real deductions on what happened to the population in Vinland.

It seems that there were never many Vikings living there (no more than few hundreds). And probably what happened to them is exactly what the sagas say - they simply abandoned their villages and sailed back to Greenland and to Iceland.

Someone passed on those stories about Viking voyages in Vinland to scribes who wrote them down. Guess who.

Gucumatz · Aug 17, 2014

Ah - Apologies, I thought the saga quote relayed to Greenland. Most of my post was about:

In Greenland there is actually evidence that at least some settlements were wiped out by Inuits

What if the Europeans hadn't discovered the New World until 1692?

Traitorfish

The Tighnahulish Kid

madviking

north american scum

Traitorfish

The Tighnahulish Kid

awesome

Meme Lord

Domen

Misico dux Vandalorum

Gucumatz

JS, secretly Rod Serling

Domen

Misico dux Vandalorum

Gucumatz

JS, secretly Rod Serling

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