Germanic - Celtic relationship?

you might want to try rephrasing your question.

The purpose of this thread is to endeavor presentation of significant relationship between "Germanic and Celtic peoples". It's not my question. The answer is clearly, "Not only linguistically, but also archaeologically we find those people "defined by whomever" as "Germanic and Celtic" were certainly related with very strong ties at a "not entirely so distant past" (to 600BC but certainly before).

Can you agree with this paragraph?
 
The purpose of this thread is to endeavor presentation of significant relationship between "Germanic and Celtic peoples". It's not my question. The answer is clearly, "Not only linguistically, but also archaeologically we find those people "defined by whomever" as "Germanic and Celtic" were certainly related with very strong ties at a "not entirely so distant past" (to 600BC but certainly before).

Can you agree with this paragraph?

No, because it seems like you're still speaking in ethnic terms. This isn't an ethnic discussion. There aren't any "Germanic and Celtic peoples". The peoples who spoke Germanic and Celtic dialects were certainly related culturally, and they share linguistic ties as both are related under the IE language family. I honestly don't know what you mean by "were certainly related with very strong ties at a 'not entirely so distant past'". I feel like you're fundamentally misunderstanding the words "Germanic" and "Celtic" and what they relate to specifically.
 
Am I the only person who thinks that all the quotation marks in Adjuvant's posts make them really hard to parse?
 
But I don't think that culture has that sort of identifiable impact on individual personalities in a meaningful way.
[...]
I said that it is not wholly based on self-identification, but primarily.
I don't even know what "personality" even really is. But I must say that this is a to me pretty outlandish view to basically deny culture it's weight on how people relate to the world and them-self and how that in turn shapes people. Seems exceedingly wrong to me on several levels and I honestly can't fathom why anyone would even think that. I mean it already starts with language. Language is basically designed to shape one's view of the world. One thinks in words after all.
But well, contrary to my customs I am gonna spare you a prolonged ramble of mine.
 
No, because it seems like you're still speaking in ethnic terms. This isn't an ethnic discussion. There aren't any "Germanic and Celtic peoples". The peoples who spoke Germanic and Celtic dialects were certainly related culturally, and they share linguistic ties as both are related under the IE language family. I honestly don't know what you mean by "were certainly related with very strong ties at a 'not entirely so distant past'". I feel like you're fundamentally misunderstanding the words "Germanic" and "Celtic" and what they relate to specifically.

You are tripping.

I think you're trying to "paint me into a corner" of old "ethnicity theory". People don't have to be biggots to realize "differences between groups of people happen because of descendancy". Of course there are differences, culturally and physically, between groups of people. What exactly are you trying to present here? Is it some hippie stuff where there's "no race but the human race"?

Seriously, in some effort to "perfect a humanistic world view" you're very much ignoring massive issues in how we study people sociologically and anthropologically. I have no clue who taught you this crap, but you need to ask for your money back.

edit: example: Is it somehow offensive to you when I mentioned "Huns appearing as Kazakhs" in this thread...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=467616&page=3

...because I suppose that's some kind of "ethnic profiling".
 
I just googled a "list of ethnic groups". All you get is wikipedia because I'm starting to get tired of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups

Scroll down. Do you see the Germans? Do you know why there are no "Celts"? Because they ARE the Germans. It's been this way since 1300bc (at least), evidence supported in my first post in this thread with "Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures". (I put it in quotations because that's the manner with which we refer them SCIENTIFICALLY today)
 
You are tripping.

I think you're trying to "paint me into a corner" of old "ethnicity theory". People don't have to be biggots to realize "differences between groups of people happen because of descendancy". Of course there are differences, culturally and physically, between groups of people. What exactly are you trying to present here? Is it some hippie stuff where there's "no race but the human race"?

Seriously, in some effort to "perfect a humanistic world view" you're very much ignoring massive issues in how we study people sociologically and anthropologically. I have no clue who taught you this crap, but you need to ask for your money back.

Whee-whoo here comes the anti-PC brigade. We've come to the point of no return.
 
I just googled a "list of ethnic groups". All you get is wikipedia because I'm starting to get tired of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups

Scroll down. Do you see the Germans? Do you know why there are no "Celts"? Because they ARE the Germans. It's been this way since 1300bc (at least), evidence supported in my first post in this thread with "Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures". (I put it in quotations because that's the manner with which we refer them SCIENTIFICALLY today)

I suggest you hit "C" in the table of contents of your link.
 
I feel like I should be weighing in on this, but Adjuvant's posting style makes my head hurt, so I'll just say this.

"Celts" are already a diverse enough group that the connections between them are kind of vague. The idea that "Celts" are "Germans" therefor seems even more tenuous.

Also, this idea that Celts = Halstatt culture seems a little silly and primordialist.
 
I don't even know what "personality" even really is. But I must say that this is a to me pretty outlandish view to basically deny culture it's weight on how people relate to the world and them-self and how that in turn shapes people. Seems exceedingly wrong to me on several levels and I honestly can't fathom why anyone would even think that. I mean it already starts with language. Language is basically designed to shape one's view of the world. One thinks in words after all.
But well, contrary to my customs I am gonna spare you a prolonged ramble of mine.
If you can meaningfully demonstrate how a given culture supposedly has an identifiable impact on the way people of that culture see the world, by all means, go for it. But to me, your comment just looks like a crummy excuse for BS stereotyping.
 
That said, your question is sort of going in two directions, here, and there's a sort of nugget in there that is worth answering - namely, whether ethnicity is wholly based on self-identification or not. In this post I said that it is not wholly based on self-identification, but primarily.

That brings up an interesting point. Did Celtic peoples view themselves as being part of a collective identity (sort of the way Hellenic peoples did during the Persian invasion, although Greeks obviously still fought for both sides). I suppose a figure like Vercingetorix lends some weight to the idea, but I wonder to what extent (how many groups did they identify as being a part of themselves).
 
If you can meaningfully demonstrate how a given culture supposedly has an identifiable impact on the way people of that culture see the world, by all means, go for it.
Modern New Yorker vs Member of hunter-and-gatherer tribe

And what is the extreme there, is the significantly more subtle difference between say Germans and Americans. I don't know the details, but you lived in Germany for a while if I am not mistaken. You can not possibly want to tell me that you didn't experience a difference in culture. I certainly did. And if you have, why exactly are you disputing that said culture shapes people? Would it make any sense to assume so, given how people are beyond a doubt shaped by their environment, of which culture is by definition a defining feature, as culture defines how people have a common conception of said environment.
Is to just say "Americans are more confident" a stereo-type? Of course. But we have little else than stereo-types to describe different cultures. In everyday conversation anyway. They are just the messenger and you know what they say about those.
 
That brings up an interesting point. Did Celtic peoples view themselves as being part of a collective identity (sort of the way Hellenic peoples did during the Persian invasion, although Greeks obviously still fought for both sides).
No, there was a sense of community between Goedelic Speakers, and a separate community of Brythonic speakers post Anglo-Saxon invasion, but you don't get a sense of "Celtic Identity" until the 19th century.
 
I suggest you hit "C" in the table of contents of your link.

I suppose, if I'm going to cite that list, although I really don't like citing wikipedia. If you review the links, the cited article from "Celts" refers an ethno-linguistic group which "these people" would have argued more stresses their argument, while the germanic links refer an actual lineage.

The illustration was to show the statement, "There aren't any "Germanic and Celtic peoples"." inherently false. I guess I dropped the ball there a bit. Care to give better links than wikipedia?
 
That brings up an interesting point. Did Celtic peoples view themselves as being part of a collective identity (sort of the way Hellenic peoples did during the Persian invasion, although Greeks obviously still fought for both sides). I suppose a figure like Vercingetorix lends some weight to the idea, but I wonder to what extent (how many groups did they identify as being a part of themselves).
What PCH said is correct: no, there wasn't. The Auernoi didn't feel any particular kinship for the Goidelic-speakers of Ireland or the Skordiskoi of the Balkans.
Modern New Yorker vs Member of hunter-and-gatherer tribe

And what is the extreme there, is the significantly more subtle difference between say Germans and Americans. I don't know the details, but you lived in Germany for a while if I am not mistaken. You can not possibly want to tell me that you didn't experience a difference in culture. I certainly did. And if you have, why exactly are you disputing that said culture shapes people? Would it make any sense to assume so, given how people are beyond a doubt shaped by their environment, of which culture is by definition a defining feature, as culture defines how people have a common conception of said environment.
Is to just say "Americans are more confident" a stereo-type? Of course. But we have little else than stereo-types to describe different cultures. In everyday conversation anyway. They are just the messenger and you know what they say about those.
"Member of hunter-and-gatherer tribe" [sic] is not, uh, a "culture".

There are, of course, very obvious cultural differences between Germans and Americans. Language is obviously not the same, diet is variable, sports teams are different, and stuff like that. But I never felt like there was some sort of personality characteristic that tended to be more prevalent in Germans than Americans, or vice versa. You sound like you're tending towards a variant on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, that language has a disproportionate effect on the way people think about things, and that people who speak different languages view the world in different ways because of those languages. This is, however, widely regarded to be false nowadays. Obviously culture has some impact on the way people view the world, but it's only one of a multitude of factors such that people end up being idiosyncratic anyway. Just try to demonstrate causation for a given personality being based on culture - you can't. Maybe Chad Ochocinco is a dick because he's from Miami. Or maybe he's a dick because he's rich. Maybe it's because of the attention lavished on him during some of his formative years. Maybe it's for some other reason. Who the hell knows?
 
"Member of hunter-and-gatherer tribe" [sic] is not, uh, a "culture".
Very observing. So, uh, insert a culture of any hunter-and-gatherer tribe you like. Doesn't matter. Just was supposed to demonstrate how culture potentially means a grave difference in a perception of the world, for which you asked. Now you may argue, that this would only be due to different economic/political/social conditions. But it is a false dichotomy to distinguish those from culture. But well, such an extreme example will probably not do much good to our discussion, so I suggest to leave it at that. So here is something more comparable: Family sizes in America versus Germany. I'd like to suggest: A reflection of American culture. But yeah, I have no empirical sound studies which demonstrate the impact of culture with mathematical certainty. If only that can mean a difference in our discussion, the situation is hopeless. I am not ready to believe that yet, though.
You sound like you're tending towards a variant on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, that language has a disproportionate effect on the way people think about things, and that people who speak different languages view the world in different ways because of those languages. This is, however, widely regarded to be false nowadays.
Don't know about that. I read an article the other day which claimed that Chinese pupils had an easier times to learn mathematics because the Chinese language was more effective in handling it. But more generally it just to me makes sense that language would have some not negligible sway. It after all is our tool to grasp the world in a communicate-able way. And different languages are different tools. Can't possibly comment on the real proportions. But I personally for instance get a different vibe from speaking English than I get from speaking German. I am pretty sure that I think and reason differently in those languages. How different? Duh, how should I know... But I certainly don't mean to pose this as some kind of over-reaching factor. It is one of many of what shapes and constitutes a culture.
But I never felt like there was some sort of personality characteristic that tended to be more prevalent in Germans than Americans, or vice versa.
It isn't really about personality characteristics as such. When Americans seem more confident, I don't mean to say by that, that Americans as a rule tend to have a more confident personality. I simply mean, that they seem more confident. Due their culture. I can not possibly tell you what the exact consequences of this are or even that exact nature of it. I don't know if there ever was an attempt to measure cultural differences beyond customs like food or cloths and such. But I know that this exists. I know that it even exists within Germany from personal experience as well as from the exchange of experiences with others. And it simply makes sense. Because, as already said, we are shaped by our social environment. And this social environment is shaped by culture. And culture constitutes how we perceive the world. It makes absolutely no sense that this was not subject to regional differences and to differences which can correlate with nationality.

Obviously culture has some impact on the way people view the world, but it's only one of a multitude of factors such that people end up being idiosyncratic anyway.
I think here we arrive at the heart of the issue.
At first: Sure, no disagreement there. I don't mean to class personalities individuals have according to their culture :crazyeye:. Obviously other things are (way) more important here. Yet this doesn't exclude the possibility of underling subtle tendencies I don't really want to pin down to specific trades, tendencies which give a group a feeling of belonging, of familiarity, of bond ship. And that is all which is required to debunk your claim that ethnicity was primarily a matter of delusion, of self-identification.
Did you honestly not sense a different kind of "feeling" in Germany as contrasted to America? Nothing concrete. Just what you felt.
 
The Germanic - Briton relationship was pushing:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/saxonadvent/saxonadvent.html

http://historum.com/european-history/67849-what-origin-celts-34.html#post1890242

(...) To Aëtius, thrice consul: the groans of the British... The barbarians push us back to the sea, the sea pushes us back to the barbarians; between these two kinds of death, we are either drowned or slaughtered. (...)

But the Scottish (Irish) - Briton relationship was similar:

(...) Hordes of Scots and Picts seized the whole of the extreme north of the island from its inhabitants, right up to the wall (...) there were enemy assaults and massacres more cruel. The pitiable citizens were torn apart by their foe like lambs by the butcher; their life became like that of beasts of the field. (...)

Here some people agree, but some claim otherwise, so I'm not sure:

http://historum.com/european-history/73305-native-english-people-not-really-germanic.html

It seems that Scottish people were also invaders (like Anglo-Saxons), they came from Ireland!

There is always (since the 1940s at least, when English people decided that it was no longer politically correct to be Germanic) this issue whether Anglo-Saxons replaced Ancient Britons, or assimilated them. Let's listen to the lecture of prof. Ofer Bar-Yosef from Harvard University about prehistoric migrations of humans (this can also help answering the question what happened with Britons during Anglo-Saxon invasions).

His lecture is titled "Evidence for the Spread of Modern Humans":

http://carta.anthropogeny.org/mediaplayer/play/16063/8178

Here is one excerpt from his lecture:

Ofer Bar-Yosef said:
(...) We always assume that people were very successful, and we never talk about extinction. And when they colonize an area where people were already there before, it's nice to talk about interbreeding because this makes "make love no war". But sometimes, you make war, no love - and you kill the locals. And this is one of the kinds of relationships well-known between groups of hunter-gatherers. (...)

And also this:

 
Were the Celtic tribes and Gothic(Germanic) ones enemies? Did they fight regular wars between each other? I'm interested in the relationship between Celtic and Germanic tribes in the Classical era, before and after Rome's conquest of Gaul.
 
They fought wars between each other, but they also fought wars amongst themselves: "Celtic" and "Germanic" were categories imposed upon them by the Romans, not categories they invented for themselves. (The Romans weren't even entirely consistent "Celt" often just meant "barbarian on this side of the Rhine" and German "barbarian on that side of the Rhine", regardless of what languages people actually spoke, in part because individual chiefdoms might contain speakers of multiple languages.) These were societies organised into localised chiefdoms and dominated by a class of professional warriors, so low-key, localised warfare was a pretty much a constant feature of life, and if you lived by the Loire or the Elbe you were hardly going to lug yourself over to the Rhine just to carry out a few cattle-raids.
 
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