Were Ancient Macedonians Greek?

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Domen said:
I agree. But in such case, neither is "Macedonian" a static category!

And if "Macedonian" is not a static category - then why this entire silly affair with forbidding the "whoever lives there" to call themselves as they want, and instead applying to them a silly name with "Former..." at the beginning? Do Greeks mind if I call their state - Former Ottoman Eyalets of Rumelia and Morea?

Even if Ancient Macedonians were Greeks, there is not a single reason to claim this name as "property" of modern state of Greece. Especially, that - which is so ironic in this entire affair - most of Ancient Greeks actually did not want Ancient Macedonians to be considered as part of their community! :lol:

Which is why forbidding Macedonians to call themselves Macedonians and instead calling them "FYROM" is silly.
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Does anyone who isn't a right-wing Greek nationalist think it isn't?
 
The FYROMians are not Macedonians.
 
An excerpt from Swain, "Hellenism and Empire", quoted on RAT:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-gre...kedonians-included.html?limitstart=0&start=90

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-gre...-me-makedonians-included.html?start=90#279707

First, it seems likely that Appian would anyway not have looked directly to a Greek background as his source of identity, but rather to a Graeco-Macedonian one. The status of the Macedonians as Greeks had long been open to dispute. Alexander the Great was protected from scrutiny by his own merits. The Successors, the founders of the Hellenistic kingdoms and their heirs, were more exposed… It is clear from Appian’s Syrian Wars that Appian himself had discussed the question of the relationship between Macedonians and Greeks. ‘The affairs of the Macedonians and the Greeks were closely associated (epimikta) at various times and places, as I have demonstrated in my Hellenic History’ (Syrian Wars 2.5). In other words, being Macedonians was different (cf. ibid. 57. 297, Mithridatic War 41. 159), and very definitely a source of pride (cf. Preface 9.33, 10.37-42, 12.45; Civil Wars ii. 149. 619-152. 649 for the digressive comparison between Caesar and Alexander), but not too different. Appian as an Alexandrian could legitimately claim the authority of Macedonian arms, as well as the intellectual inheritance of Greece.

Swain, Hellenism and Empire
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On the other hand, such a comparison:

For centuries Europeans called the indigenous populations of Americas Indians. Leaving aside the fact these people were not really Indians, did they at least have a single ethnic identity? A single language? Calling the Cherokee Indians (Amerindians and American Indians are not really some improvements in terminology) does it mean the Cherokee have some sort of Indian idenity or speak some Indian language?
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The FYROMians are not Macedonians.
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The FYROMians are not the FOERMians - that's true. :)

Does anyone who isn't a right-wing Greek nationalist think it isn't?
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Yes, left-wing Greek nationalists and Greek nationalists of the centre. :)
 
Dachs said:
or maybe the term "barbarian" was deployed inconsistently by greeks because it reflected not objective reality but a wide variety of personal prejudices
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Or, OR...It could be that the term "barbarian" was used by the bourgeoisie controlled Greek city-states who were disdainful of the agrarian peasant class that made up the bulk of the population of the Greek speaking fringe regions to the North as a continuation of the prejudice against the peasant and artisan class that made up the Doric populations of the South.
 
How ironic, that modern Slavic Macedonian language, is a direct descendant of language codified by Cyril and Methodius - both of whom were Greek. :)

Apparently Greeks are pushing away their own child - Slavic Macedonia. :)

On the other hand, Ancient Macedonia (which wasn't Slavic, but probably also not Greek) was rejected by Ancient Greeks, but now is "adopted" again. :)
 
You, Greeks themselves, "created the monster"! You, Greeks, are responsible for your "nightmare" FYROM! :)

Just read:

Old Church Slavonic, also known as Old Church Slavic (often abbreviated to OCS; self-name словѣ́ньскъ ѩзꙑ́къ, slověnĭskŭ językŭ) was the first Slavic literary language. The 9th century Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius are credited with standardizing the language and using it in translating the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts as part of the Christianisation of the Slavic peoples.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] It is thought to have been based primarily on the dialect of the 9th century Byzantine Slavs living in the Province of Thessalonica (now in Greek Macedonia). It played an important role in the history of the Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic traditions, and some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches use Church Slavonic as a liturgical language to this day. As the oldest attested Slavic language, OCS provides important evidence for the features of Proto-Slavic, the unattested common ancestor of all Slavic languages.
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Cyril and Methodius did not know, that 1000 years later Greek nationalists would have so much problems with "FYROM" - if they knew, they would have exterminated all Slavic inhabitants of Macedon, instead of helping them in preserving their identity and even shaping their Slavic Macedonian language! :) Bad, bad "FYROMians" (who are known under the name "Macedonians" since about year 900 CE - but anyway, let's call them "FYROMians", because they are evil Slavs).
 
To summ up the FYROM-Macedon issue:

Frankenstein (monster) was named after its creator - Dr Frankenstein. :)

In the same way, Macedon (Slavic) is named after its creator - Macedon (Greek).

And NO - you cannot call it "FYROM", because Greeks themselves gave name "Macedonians" to Slavic immigrants to the region of Macedon! :)

You created the monster, guys:



FYROM is YOUR child, guys! :) Or - more precisely - a child of your Greek ancestors (Cyril and Methodius included).

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I hope that modern Greeks do realize, that modern Slavic Macedonian language, is a direct child of two Greek people - Cyril and Methodius - who codified Slavic dialect spoken in the reagion of Thessalonica during the 9th century.

So - technically - by calling modern Slavic Republic of Macedon "FYROM", you are pushing away your own child - because the name "Macedonians" was applied by ethnic Greek inhabitants of Byzantine Empire to ethnic Slavic inhabitants of the region of Macedon since at least year 900 CE. If I am wrong, please correct me and tell me how were these people called, and how was Macedonian language (which is one of modern South Slavic languages) called since Medieval times until nowadays. Surely they were not called FYROMians for the last 1000 years!

Frankenstein (monster) was named after its creator - Dr Frankenstein. The same case is here - Slavic immigrants to the region of Macedon, who came there during the Early Middle Ages - were called "Macedonians" by their ethnic Greek neighbours.

I find it very ridiculous, that nowadays these facts are rejected.

BTW - of course Ancient Macedonians were not Slavic, but being called "Macedonians" for the last 1000 years (since around year 900 - 1000 after Christ) - and the name being invented by Greeks themselves - is probably enough time, to justify this Slavic-speaking nation to call themselves Macedonians, and their state to call itself Macedon.

Another issue is - and this is why this thread was originally established - whether Ancient Macedonians were Greeks?
 
Not only FYROM is our child, but all of the South Slavs, the Russians and the Europeans (Ancient Romans included).
 
Not only FYROM is our child, but all of the South Slavs, the Russians and the Europeans (Ancient Romans included).
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Oh.

So you are apparently a very bad father, who hates his children (at least one of them - FYROM) and even swindles money from his children. :)

Seems like this "European family" founded by "father Greece", is a very pathological family - especially its father. :)
 
BTW, coming back to Ancient times:

There is too little of Ancient Macedonian surviving for linguists to make a thorough analysis of and therefore come to a definitive classification. There are two main recent theories, that Macedonian was an archaic dialect of Greek, incorporating many influences from Illyrian and Thracian, or that Macedonian and Paeonian formed a sister group to the Greek dialects within a larger linguistic family, which had a common ancestry.
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Domen is on a rampage in this thread.

But yeah, post #2 puts the ancient barbarian line into the appropriate context.
 
Domen said:
"Macedonia, a country considered by Greeks as a kingdom of barbarians, was inhabited by Illyrians, Thracians and greek Dorians".
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If they changed that quote to "considered by Greek [City States] as a kingdom of barbarians," it probably wouldn't be far from the truth. The quote acknowledges (although probably downplays) its Greek heritage with the reference to Greek Dorians. Whether they were Greeks that were heavily influenced by Thracians and others or Thracians and others heavily influenced by the Greeks is a question of degree in an often silly conversation of ethnicity.

Only later, when he invented a story that his dynasty originated from kings of the Greek city of Argos, they allowed him to participate.
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I believe his military and political influence had something to do with allowing him to participate as well.

Dachs said:
or maybe the term "barbarian" was deployed inconsistently by greeks because it reflected not objective reality but a wide variety of personal prejudices
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Or pretty much this.
 
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