BNW Deity Tier List

Yeah I've done fairly well with them. Don't get me wrong, they're not top tier, but I don't think they're bottom any more. It's mainly about not going ott on cities or moai. Bear in mind that you don't need to work all your moai, and that going wide you can spend a few rubbish tiles which you wouldn't work anyway to get one or two good ones. You don't need to moai every single tile, and should still improve the lux''s and farm the wheat etc. ICS is dead for everyone from science, but wide is not; the science penalty is not that strong if you stay reasonable, and culture policies get a much bigger boost from Polynesia (relative to other wide civs) than they used to. When I've played, I've taken liberty (sometimes with tradition opener for borders), then mixed aesthetics with rationalism (which Polynesia does need).
Tbh, I haven't really found the need to get landmarks, as moai do a good job anyway, so the few that I did get out really benefitted from being super fast as they were being snapped up, so I focused on depriving the culture leader from what they had yet to get.
Lastly, you don't need to crazy on the moai super early; I spammed them near the end when I had lots of pop and was getting culture, but for the majority of the game they were just in the prime spots.

Interesting, I think starting at 5 pop, I sent my pop to work the prime Moais. Too early? I guess I mismanaged. Did liberty + aesthetics 1 policy + exploration + rationalism opener + patronage 2 policies. Have you played Brazil? I think on non-island maps, I would always prefer Brazil/France to Polynesia, since they both get +culture tiles (Brazil gets +3 w/ religion, +2 otherwise; France gets +3; Polynesia gets +3 for most, with a couple +4s/+5s), but Brazil also has a GA boost, which you can get going fairly consistently in the end-game, France has a theming bonus. With Polynesia, I couldn't get any wonders, so another civ did, so there ended up being two huge runaway culture civs that I couldn't overcome (I did the math, it wouldn't have worked even if I could faith-buy GMs).

If someone else seconds your experience with Polynesia, I may move both Brazil and Polynesia up. At their core, Brazil/France/Polynesia's path to culture/diplo victory are very similar. Polynesia just seems to be outclassed by the other two (Brazil's jungle start also lets it have a viable science-backup).
 
Interesting, I think starting at 5 pop, I sent my pop to work the prime Moais. Too early? I guess I mismanaged. Did liberty + aesthetics 1 policy + exploration + rationalism opener + patronage 2 policies. Have you played Brazil? I think on non-island maps, I would always prefer Brazil/France to Polynesia, since they both get +culture tiles (Brazil gets +3 w/ religion, +2 otherwise; France gets +3; Polynesia gets +3 for most, with a couple +4s/+5s), but Brazil also has a GA boost, which you can get going fairly consistently in the end-game, France has a theming bonus. With Polynesia, I couldn't get any wonders, so another civ did, so there ended up being two huge runaway culture civs that I couldn't overcome (I did the math, it wouldn't have worked even if I could faith-buy GMs).

If someone else seconds your experience with Polynesia, I may move both Brazil and Polynesia up. At their core, Brazil/France/Polynesia's path to culture/diplo victory are very similar. Polynesia just seems to be outclassed by the other two (Brazil's jungle start also lets it have a viable science-backup).

I've tried Brazil but not France yet. I think Brazil are a little stronger in the long run, but don't get anything early. If it were me I'd have Brazil middle tier and Polynesia lower middle tier, just because pangea can be a little rough. I'd recommend both for an interesting game though :).
On the moai, I'll usually wait until the tiles I want to work get outer tiles that can also take moai, which happens quicker if I took the tradition opener (it's kind of a snowball thing). It's terrain dependant so I didn't stick to a hard and fast rule, but on a 10 pop city I'd have as a weak rule of thumb about 2 working a moai, usually with 3 culture, or more if I could get it, sometimes 1 moai worked if there was also a uni, when I'd work both scientists and get a second moai worked at 11 or 12.
 
Splitting up the tiers was a good choice. I still don't agree with Rome being that high. A solid Civ, yes, but their window of opportunity is too small on Deity. Their production bonus isn't enough to carry them to an upper tier, especially when the meta-game is to ignore a large number of buildings and rush-buy a good portion of the others. It is kind of like Egypt in that their UA is great on Emperor/Immortal, but the pacing of the game is too quick on Deity that the UA loses a huge chunk of its usefulness.

There are a few others I don't agree with either, but the list is obviously subjective so not a big deal. The two I want to mention though is Inca and France. In G&K I think many would have ranked Inca higher, but perhaps they are not that great now since internal trade routes can give everyone massive food? I haven't played them yet in BNW, but it seems like their terrace farms were indirectly nerfed.

The other is France. I've tried a few games but have yet to actually finish one with France. Again, in G&K I would have ranked them higher. The +2 culture per city was actually very good for war-mongering, and musketeers are crazy good if you bee-line correctly (AI typically still stuck on 16 str pikes when you have 28 str muskets). The party keeps going when legions hit the field.

I will need to give them a few games. Musketeers are still great, of course, but haven't played with the chateau much, and tourism bonuses take away from their war-mongering synergy they had in the past.
 
Am I missing something? Why is Ethiopia so godly ranked? :|
 
Significant faith boost on a building which is high priority anyway (or in the case of Tradition, completely free).

The 20% against Civs with more cities generally works against any Deity AI with how they spam cities. If you reach a point where you finally get more cities than a Deity AI, you've likely already won the game anyway.

In other words: A free, nearly guaranteed religion and a free +20% combat strength on all units.
 
I can somewhat get behind this. Naval trade routes are absurd and so getting quick Harbors is no joke. They're fairly essential if you want to have reasonable trading partners after all.

I actually think they got a little worse, personally.

The second best thing about Carthage's early harbours (best of course being free city connections for stuff like Messenger of the Gods and a bit of extra cash) was the extra hammer on sea resources. It gave fresh cities some really good tiles to get up to speed quickly in a way that moving the hammer down to Lighthouses doesn't--chances are you'll still want monuments, shrines, etc. first.

The free trade route extension isn't as valuable as it looks on paper, IMO. Firstly, chances are you'll want to sending your ships out from the one hub that has the best resource diversity and has been upgraded with econ buildings, so multiple free harbours don't actually help your trade network that much unless the bulk of your empire is still out of reach of good routes after them. Secondly, sending long sea routes out in the very early game does give you a little extra cash, but at that point barbarian ships are still spawning all over the place and your quinqs are better off scouting than sitting on a route.

I just randomed Carthage in a situation that would be pretty much ideal, and ... well, it just isn't looking all that good. I can't see what they have over civs like Portugal other than the quinq rush, and that's pretty situational. Yes, the free city connections are very nice now that there's less gold on the map--especially if you want to expand early--but I'm not sure that makes up for the Carthaginian UUs or how strong some of the other maritime civs are.
 
I agree fairy well with this list, good work overall. It is obvious some people like a list as this.

The only tricky part is I am unsure about is how to place Spain on it, it is one of the civs I am the most nervous about in MP games, because if Spain gets that early wonder, or two.. it becomes godly. If not, it is nothing special.
 
I agree fairy well with this list, good work overall. It is obvious some people like a list as this.

The only tricky part is I am unsure about is how to place Spain on it, it is one of the civs I am the most nervous about in MP games, because if Spain gets that early wonder, or two.. it becomes godly. If not, it is nothing special.

Hence, Spain usually shows up as a wildcard on all of such lists.
 
3 civs that in my opinion are too low i OP list.

Songhai
If you take fast Honor and start farming barbarian camps early you get tons of gold that can be used to buy workers or buildings. This makes your game start really good. Mud Pyramid Mosque is really decent and Mandekalu Cavalry is not bat also.
And dont forget that you also get 3x gold for plundering cities but the real fun starts when you start taking cities from Egypt with Burial Tombs :)
Songhai is also really fun to play since from start you got guaranteed a lot of action.

Assyria
Assyria got one of the best UA in the game, especially for deity. If you plan to play warmongering game Ashurbanipal for me is one of the top picks.
I might be wrong here because i didnt play too many deity games so far but Siege Tower seems to be most overpowered unit there is. If you play a game and your neighbour is Assyria get ready for trouble. 5-7 of Siege Towers + some support units and you are done if you are not prepared properly.

Celts
I agree that Celts rely mostly on starting position and if you are unlucky you are screwed. But if you get this forest...man...u are set. Guaranteed religion of your choice is really powerfull. Ceilidh Hall is super strong also especialy if you go warmonger

EDIT.

Shoshone
This one i missed in OP's list. Man...WAY too low. Shoshone start is godlike since you can pick what you want from ruins. Population-culture-population-faith-culture.....and so on. On huge maps where u can grab 7-10 ruins Shoshone is top tier. Thx to good start you can go any playstyle you want. And you got 100% guaranteed religion.
 
Celts
I agree that Celts rely mostly on starting position and if you are unlucky you are screwed. But if you get this forest...man...u are set. Guaranteed religion of your choice is really powerfull. Ceilidh Hall is super strong also especialy if you go warmonger

Are you sure? You are pretty much guaranteed to get the first Pantheon (excepting an AI working a religious wonder off the bat) but insomuch Celt's UA only means +2 :c5faith: , unless you cook a forest map, you will sometimes not get even the first two religions, esp. if Ethiopia and other Piety-first civs are in the game.
 
Are you sure? You are pretty much guaranteed to get the first Pantheon (excepting an AI working a religious wonder off the bat) but insomuch Celt's UA only means +2 :c5faith: , unless you cook a forest map, you will sometimes not get even the first two religions, esp. if Ethiopia and other Piety-first civs are in the game.

Thats why you take Pantheon to back up Celts UA and get religion. UA+Stone Circles/Goddess of Festivals/Tears of the Gods/Religious Idols.
Ofcourse you need this 3 forest next to your capital :)
 
Thats why you take Pantheon to back up Celts UA and get religion. UA+Stone Circles/Goddess of Festivals/Tears of the Gods/Religious Idols.
Ofcourse you need this 3 forest next to your capital :)

Sure, but that becomes map dependent. What if you had 2-3 Salt like I did? You just take Fertility and hope for some decent choices.
 
Sure, but that becomes map dependent. What if you had 2-3 Salt like I did? You just take Fertility and hope for some decent choices.

Agreed. But in my personal opinion i still rank Celts same than Siam or England that are tier higher:)
 
I actually think they got a little worse, personally.

The second best thing about Carthage's early harbours (best of course being free city connections for stuff like Messenger of the Gods and a bit of extra cash) was the extra hammer on sea resources. It gave fresh cities some really good tiles to get up to speed quickly in a way that moving the hammer down to Lighthouses doesn't--chances are you'll still want monuments, shrines, etc. first.

The free trade route extension isn't as valuable as it looks on paper, IMO. Firstly, chances are you'll want to sending your ships out from the one hub that has the best resource diversity and has been upgraded with econ buildings, so multiple free harbours don't actually help your trade network that much unless the bulk of your empire is still out of reach of good routes after them. Secondly, sending long sea routes out in the very early game does give you a little extra cash, but at that point barbarian ships are still spawning all over the place and your quinqs are better off scouting than sitting on a route.

I just randomed Carthage in a situation that would be pretty much ideal, and ... well, it just isn't looking all that good. I can't see what they have over civs like Portugal other than the quinq rush, and that's pretty situational. Yes, the free city connections are very nice now that there's less gold on the map--especially if you want to expand early--but I'm not sure that makes up for the Carthaginian UUs or how strong some of the other maritime civs are.

Carthage in my opinion has always been one of the strongest naval nations. In BNW there have been newcomers to the maritime stage like Portugal and Morocco, but I still find Carthage one of the best for a huge naval empire. Start liberty and expand at a healthy rate. Early on, its a bit silly to use cargo ships on trade routes with other civs, you'd want to have them bring food to your less populous cities and quickly work up a juicy wide empire.

I think Carthage has the unique niche of an aggressively expansive naval/maritime nation, with its UUs and UA. You can maybe compare it to the Ottomans - but they have nothing built in that would reward high expansion to the extent Carthage does.

Yes, there are reasons to select Portugal over Carthage, but gold isn't the only thing at stake here. Portugal has its entire kit focused on making gold. More $ from resource diversity, boats that can sell goods, feitorias for free luxuries. When it comes to Carthage, it can have an early game threat from being able to cross mountains and the quinqeremes.

Carthage is a strong maritime power but not necessarily all about making gold. There is probably a great strategy to utilizing Carthage as an aggressive but rich nation, and I frankly feel they're fairly underrated.

City Connections are all you really need early on to have a significant gold input, you don't want to waste hammers on cargo ships to trade with other nations, just to send food to the rest of your empire. Then you spam cities everywhere and flood everyone's ports with cargo ships and make everyone afraid.

They've always had a niche role but I feel they got a minor indirect buff in this expansion. People always stick them in the same category as Portugal or Morocco or other goldmaking nations, when they really have their own category. Not to mention Dido is one of the most badass leaders, not from what she looks like but that lore..
 
Nekondas... a lot of what you say sounds situational. e.g. you can't always get stone circles/ goddess of festivals / tears of the gods / religious idols (I mean you can, but you won't have the start for it). The Celts' main benefit (being one of the first few to religion) is a lot more situational now with BNW and any civ going down Piety able to beat you to it. You also can't use the UU as much, since a spearman rush is now pretty laughable and will set you back far more than it'll help. Do you go Piety or Tradition or Liberty? I tried a Celts game on Immortal (had a start that didn't lend itself to a faith-pantheon; but my first two cities were both 3-forested) with Piety and it was pretty bad. Then again, all my Piety starts so far have been somewhere between "okay" and "awful", so maybe I should stick to Tradition/Liberty. Anyone else do well with the Celts in BNW's new Deity religion timing? I do realize I dropped them 2 tiers from G&K (my biggest drop), and maybe that was too harsh.

For Songhai, you end up with Egypt as a neighbor, what, ~5% of the time? =/ Can't judge a civ based on situational starts. Or Brazil would be Top tier. As it stands, Songhai is in the second best tier of warmongers. Are we really going to say they're "as good as the Mongols"? The problem is more with how good blatant aggressive warmongering is in BNW (not very) compared to G&K. Songhai is certainly a 2nd tier warmongering civ (only behind China, Mongolia, Zulu and England on this list, so they're like tied for 4th best warmongering civ; and only behind England on water maps), but that makes them a 4th tier civ overall. How many barb camps do you clear anyway on standard settings? Five-six at most? +300 early gold is great, and you'll get to set up safer early trade routes, but as far as infrastructure goes, even if I played the same way, an average Spain game has comparable yields (and I think most people would prefer 1 happiness to 2 culture). And we're still getting a ton of disagreement over Assyria. Overall, it doesn't seem like people think they're as good as the Mongols/Zulu, but I don't think many people have really tried them on Deity yet (since the BNW focus is culture/diplo and not war).

Also, is Shoshone really guaranteed religion on Deity? From just one ruins pop? If so, I'll move them up one. I had not thought they were guaranteed, just that they had a better shot than other non-faith civs. I assume you'll find at least one ruin after turn 20 (but unlikely to find 4 of them to get two faith boosts), but didn't realize that would guarantee you a religion on Deity. Let me know if this is true.
 
More Warmonger discussion. I moved England down, bad idea? or just an accurate reflection of warmongering in BNW. England does have an extra spy too. Enough to move it back up? I think I'm very comfortable putting the Mongols as a definitive new 3rd tier civ. Hard to say they're better than China/Austria right? And, I'm going to start comparing every "pure" warmongering civ on the axis of "better than Mongols" (China, England?); "on par with Mongols" (Zulu); "worse than Mongols" (Assyria/Songhai, Huns?); and "significantly worse than Mongols" (Germany/Japan, Ottoman?); oh, and then there's poor Denmark.

As warmongering Civ Mongols are top tier because Keshik (+Khan) is the best unit in the game right now. U can win any war vs any AI Civ super easy. All you have to do is rush Chivalry, buid 6+ Keshik's and pick a target. Doesnt matter who you attack or how many units he has. U can hit&run him to death without loosing one unit. You dont need siege units to get cities - i just get 2-3 pikeman/swordsman to do capturing job. Having maxed honor (as you should have) preatty soon you get your units lvl 5+ meaning 2 attacks and +1 range. Then you pick another civ to conquer (if you got enough :c5happy:). :c5happy: is your biggest problem, especially if you dont have good religion. Otherwise, gg, you won :)

Nekondas... a lot of what you say sounds situational. e.g. you can't always get stone circles/ goddess of festivals / tears of the gods / religious idols (I mean you can, but you won't have the start for it). The Celts' main benefit (being one of the first few to religion) is a lot more situational now with BNW and any civ going down Piety able to beat you to it. You also can't use the UU as much, since a spearman rush is now pretty laughable and will set you back far more than it'll help. Do you go Piety or Tradition or Liberty? I tried a Celts game on Immortal (had a start that didn't lend itself to a faith-pantheon; but my first two cities were both 3-forested) with Piety and it was pretty bad. Then again, all my Piety starts so far have been somewhere between "okay" and "awful", so maybe I should stick to Tradition/Liberty. Anyone else do well with the Celts in BNW's new Deity religion timing? I do realize I dropped them 2 tiers from G&K (my biggest drop), and maybe that was too harsh.

For Songhai, you end up with Egypt as a neighbor, what, ~5% of the time? =/ Can't judge a civ based on situational starts. Or Brazil would be Top tier. As it stands, Songhai is in the second best tier of warmongers. Are we really going to say they're "as good as the Mongols"? The problem is more with how good blatant aggressive warmongering is in BNW (not very) compared to G&K. Songhai is certainly a 2nd tier warmongering civ (only behind China, Mongolia, Zulu and England on this list, so they're like tied for 4th best warmongering civ; and only behind England on water maps), but that makes them a 4th tier civ overall. How many barb camps do you clear anyway on standard settings? Five-six at most? +300 early gold is great, and you'll get to set up safer early trade routes, but as far as infrastructure goes, even if I played the same way, an average Spain game has comparable yields (and I think most people would prefer 1 happiness to 2 culture). And we're still getting a ton of disagreement over Assyria. Overall, it doesn't seem like people think they're as good as the Mongols/Zulu, but I don't think many people have really tried them on Deity yet (since the BNW focus is culture/diplo and not war).

Also, is Shoshone really guaranteed religion on Deity? From just one ruins pop? If so, I'll move them up one. I had not thought they were guaranteed, just that they had a better shot than other non-faith civs. I assume you'll find at least one ruin after turn 20 (but unlikely to find 4 of them to get two faith boosts), but didn't realize that would guarantee you a religion on Deity. Let me know if this is true.

I played Celts like 2 times and i always started tradition-liberty-commerce. I didn't try Piety start with them so no idea about that.
Assyria is funny because i played them 3 times - 2 lost 1 win. In all three games i wasn't attacking, i was defending myself and retaliating after. I have no idea why but it seems AI doesn't like Assyria so much. I might be wrong here, need to test it more :)
 
Not quite sure why Greece is so low, the early rushes are really iffy and pretty much dead, but much like Siam, since they fixed the stupid long range bullying in G&K they are the only Civ that can get CS with 0 degradation and the Patronage finisher no longer affects that degradation so even other Civs contending for Patronage can't block you out of that game anymore by quickly finishing Patronage. They can compete for allies, sure, but you become the easy favorite, especially with hostiles.

I'm not sure where I'd put it though, it's lower than Korea and Poland to me, but possibly higher than some of the upper tier, and some in the top tier.

Being serious here, try it out and aim for a religion and 2 quick policies in Patronage, feels great.
 
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