[Guide] Freedom's Science Victory

If you usually spend a lot of gold in city states Patronage left automatically become more attractive. Patronage is also more attractive early than Commerce I believe if you buy a lot of CS fast.

You also must not forget the science boost from Mercantilism. While it is a small boost (around 40bpt late game) this boost is included into bulbs while Scholasticism isn't. Also Mercantilism/BigBen saves gold not only on ship parts but often on labs and sometimes on school in a high culture game.

Napkin maths based on the babyonian immortal game provided by ironfighter in the other thread show that going Scholasticism then FT is approximately as good as going FT then mercantilism in science alone. Being more thorough in recording the data involved (scholasticism values etc) would be required to come up with better maths and better analysis but it's a start.

Thanks Acken.

Edit : I wonder what is your tech path after Plastics. You speak about Penicilin. I use to tech railroad after Plastics on the way to Satellites. How do you manage to have Biology and Penicilin before Sats ? Do you build hospitals and medical center or just additional caravans ?

+1 on the thanks.

What normally sells me on Patronage is the +food and +culture. If I can get a 2 CS alliances early from quests that culture gain is huge as a percent of my early game output. Same for Maritime bonuses.

Memoryjar said:

Thanks Acken.

Edit : I wonder what is your tech path after Plastics. You speak about Penicilin. I use to tech railroad after Plastics on the way to Satellites. How do you manage to have Biology and Penicilin before Sats ? Do you build hospitals and medical center or just additional caravans ?

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You should grab Fertilizer first most of the time. Chemistry + Fertilizer takes only 4ish turns post plastics.

Like I said it kind of depends on how hard it will be for you to build Appollo and Hubble and whether or not the trade routes would help reach the gold goal. If your GPT is really high, you have friends and have gone right Commerce, you can even consider buying a few hospital/medical labs. You'll get even more value out of it if your game is slower too.

On the other hand, going penicillin requires to bulb 1 or 2 more GS right away than going railroad. Another option that I've been playing with is to go Biology then Railroad for 2 routes. Either way you have around 20-30 turns after plastics to reach Satellites and then between the additional GSs and the 12-14 turns of Hubble construction you probably can reach the end of the tech tree.

To be honest the path after plastics is still a part that I'm unsure of as I've tried to do it in multiple ways and they yield similar results The only thing to remember is that theoretically compared to Order you can delay Appollo (Order needs it fast in order to start building parts), you should have time to grab some stuff prior to it. The real question however is does they really make a difference ?

Iberian said:

+1 on the thanks.

What normally sells me on Patronage is the +food and +culture. If I can get a 2 CS alliances early from quests that culture gain is huge as a percent of my early game output. Same for Maritime bonuses.

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Yes but patronage only helps you get those. It's not about getting food/culture vs not getting it. So the question is whether or not slower decay, better gifts (both of these translate to a diminution of CS gold gifts) and some science is worth 3 policies at the opportunity cost of more gpt, cheaper rushes, and some science.

I don't have an answer. First you'd have to translate both on the same scale to make comparable maths.

Acken said:

The real question however is does they really make a difference ?

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That's my issue. It gives me 30 turn (and at Glory7) in an OCC games to go to penicillin before satellites.

I tried it once in current Minor gauntlet (Maya, science game). I had a poor result. But I think, it's more how I play than its effect. So I need to playtest to see if it's only good for OCC games.

It shouldn't really matter because your bpt only slowly increases post plastics, so since you need penicilin no matter your path it shouldn't change the speed you finish the tree too much. Since Appollo can be finished only 2-3 turns before the end of the tree my gut feeling is that getting the routes and the possible food boost (if gold allow) is a better idea.
But like I said, tests have revealed minor differences.

I never play OCC though so the times I gives are completely off for it.

Acken said:

Yes but patronage only helps you get those. It's not about getting food/culture vs not getting it. So the question is whether or not slower decay, better gifts (both of these translate to a diminution of CS gold gifts) and some science is worth 3 policies at the opportunity cost of more gpt, cheaper rushes, and some science.

I don't have an answer. First you'd have to translate both on the same scale to make comparable maths.

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If you can win in sub 220 it is going to be hard for Patronage to make up that 7k difference. It would also be a game by game decision. If I had some time to kill I would make a spreadsheet to figure it out with variables I could plug in before choosing which path to go down but I don't. Which is too bad because I find it enjoyable even if it takes all the fun of guess work out of the game.

Acken said:

On the other hand, going penicillin requires to bulb 1 or 2 more GS right away than going railroad. Another option that I've been playing with is to go Biology then Railroad for 2 routes. Either way you have around 20-30 turns after plastics to reach Satellites and then between the additional GSs and the 12-14 turns of Hubble construction you probably can reach the end of the tech tree.

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Have you tried planning around GE-ing Hubble? It seems to me that it really smooths out the late game, especially if you only have one really good production city. It also lets you bulb later -- and, in my experience, if you do prioritize Hospitals/Medical Labs your science actually continues to ramp up pretty fast for a while.

Obviously the GE for this has to come from somewhere. Maybe you just have great faith generation and can afford 2GEs + 2GSs or something (although that's probably worse than 3 GSs). Assuming no extra faith generation, you could reallocate the GE you use on Statue of Liberty. You could instead hard-build the SoL or even just skip it. I've found that in high culture games/lower difficulties/Poland I often don't actually need the extra policy (getting an extra Wagon Trains or something is not that relevant). The hammers are great, of course, but if your gold generation is good enough I think Freedom can get by without them.

Well you can delay Hubble with a faith GE but you can't delay Appolo so at best you will bulb one less GS now to bulb it later (the GS you'd lose to research satellites). Maybe you can win around 1K that way.

The reason why I GE statue of liberty is to free up some time in the capital and it helps to finish all the buildings in expansions. I guess you'd consider it mainly if yes it's impossible to do appollo and hubble at the same time.

If you have 4 cities running 8 specialist that is 32 hammers per turn. Or 320 if it takes you 10 turns to build SoL. You have to decide if 320 hammers now is worth the GE later on something else.

Typically I burn it on SoL because I am impatient.

Iberian said:

If you have 4 cities running 8 specialist that is 32 hammers per turn. Or 320 if it takes you 10 turns to build SoL. You have to decide if 320 hammers now is worth the GE later on something else.

Typically I burn it on SoL because I am impatient.

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320 hammers * %-production bonuses. And don't forget the earlier SP and whatever your city is freed up to build during those 10 turns as well.

Thanks for this guide. I'm probably never going to use it for an actual SV, but I think there are numerous sub-tips collected in one place that can help tech-ing in general.

Also, thanks to Tetley for the idea of putting the unwanted GP on dig sites

Obviously you want to avoid generating merchants and engineers. And you must check that you don't.

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What does this actually mean? I work the banks and markets but stop working them shy of producing the merchants? Is it ever 'safe' to start working them again?

[EDIT: Another question. What should I propose in the WC when 2 of the 7 AIs have gone Order, and no one else has gone anything, and the World's Fair is over, and Sciences Funding is only wanted by 1 of them?

World Ideology: Could bribe the other 5, but might cost more than it's worth in terms of negating the happiness hit.

Sciences funding: might cause everyone around me to hate me?

There doesn't seem anything WORTH proposing that won't make people hate me.

I really hate the WC.]

You can work them but you should stop if the GP comes before the next GS. Then after GS you can work them again because GS are usually generated much more often.

Thanks for the guide I use it for an guaranteed SV on Immortal, with a few caveats:
I build Hubble in my strongest production city and Apollo in my second. I build a part in the Apollo city if the time to completion is around 13 turns, saving me gold. I might even bulb Rocketry and Satellites, knowing I'm getting another 2 from Hubble.
Since the Halloween patch you can't mass bulb any more, so I wait until I can tech Advanced Ballistics, Mobile Tactics, and Telecommunications. I bulb those and use the Rationalism finisher for Particle Physics. I might bulb Nuclear Fission if I have to spare and Uranium.

I usually play Spain and normally isn't an issue, although on a rather bad map I still managed a t350 SV. I'm pretty chuffed at that as I had to steal Education...

consentient said:

What does this actually mean? I work the banks and markets but stop working them shy of producing the merchants? Is it ever 'safe' to start working them again?

[EDIT: Another question. What should I propose in the WC when 2 of the 7 AIs have gone Order, and no one else has gone anything, and the World's Fair is over, and Sciences Funding is only wanted by 1 of them?

World Ideology: Could bribe the other 5, but might cost more than it's worth in terms of negating the happiness hit.

Sciences funding: might cause everyone around me to hate me?

There doesn't seem anything WORTH proposing that won't make people hate me.

I really hate the WC.]

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It means you have to check to not accidently generate a GMer. You could plan to generate a GE in the game at some point. It should only delay your last GS by around 5 turns.

The way to check is to look at your GP timers in your cities.

For the WC there's really only 2 thing that matter for a SV, the world fair and science funding. But science funding is not mandatory so if you can't pass it just propose some crap everybody likes. You can also propose science funding first pre-modern era and WF second. If you have patronage for the FP it's often easy to pass it by using some diplomats (if you can't get them to vote for it, make them vote for/against the other proposition, since they have like 1 delegate you're fine).

phillipwyllie said:

Thanks for the guide I use it for an guaranteed SV on Immortal, with a few caveats:
I build Hubble in my strongest production city and Apollo in my second. I build a part in the Apollo city if the time to completion is around 13 turns, saving me gold. I might even bulb Rocketry and Satellites, knowing I'm getting another 2 from Hubble.
Since the Halloween patch you can't mass bulb any more, so I wait until I can tech Advanced Ballistics, Mobile Tactics, and Telecommunications. I bulb those and use the Rationalism finisher for Particle Physics. I might bulb Nuclear Fission if I have to spare and Uranium.

I usually play Spain and normally isn't an issue, although on a rather bad map I still managed a t350 SV. I'm pretty chuffed at that as I had to steal Education...

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You have to bulb with care since the patch yes. However the guide itself is largely unchanged.

Rather than checking GP timers city-by-city, open the bottom tab of the menu at the top left of the screen (the one that usually shows what tech you are researching). That tab presents all of your cities, showing how many turns to generate each type of GP in each city.

I chose World Ideology: Freedom and paid 100GPT to get it passed. Will update this post with the effect.

Notched up my second deity win with this as a guide - thanks! Question: I completed Rationalism (and Tradition) but had poor faith so only had 1400 or so accumulated.

To buy GS with faith, I thought only rationalism was needed and that the first faith GS was 1000. In my game, the option to purchase never appeared. Is there another condition I missed?


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The city you want to buy the GS in must have a religion (not necessarily yours).