The Deity Challenge Line-up - (Future Challenges)

Great word, Acken. I'm an English teacher, and it took a French-speaking fellow Civfanatic to introduce me to the word.

Merci beaucoup pour votre inspiration!

Thanks also for your kind words.

I kinda figured that a lot of the people who were hyped 6 months ago are a bit jaded now. That's why the next 4 DCLs are all completely unique.

I wish I could post them all now, but people are still working on the last few. Or not, as the case may be. I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of interest in The Netherlands map. I worked hard to find a Small Continents map that I thought was tough AND interesting. Ah well

consentient said:

I've updated the Finisher's spreadsheet. I've taken away what was before the main page, a big list of players and their finish times, and spread it out amongst the numbered challenges.

I've done away with the notes, since if people really want to learn about the games they can read the write-ups on the threads.

I have, however, added a list of 'Top Finishers' to highlight the sterling work that the regulars have put in.

Also, there has been a real drop-off in contributions since the Indonesia map. I'm wondering if everything is alright with my hosting, or if there are problems that aren't being aired.

As you can see from the 'Downloads and VCs' page on the Finisher's sheet, compared with the peak time under DingleBirdy when there were 20+ submissions for the Inca map, things have really dried up lately.

I'm not moaning for moaning's sake. Just want to know if everything is OK. Perhaps everyone is just a little busy?

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Great job on the new Finisher's List. Very interesting that CV is so rarely used. Also, nobody has won the Netherlands game by Domination yet? That's what I'm working on and I've got a shot at it, but I'd think some of the really good warmongers here would be able to do this by now.

Regarding fewer downloads; besides BE being launched, it's probably also a factor of time. I'm sure there are many lurkers who will download many of the more recent ones as time goes on.

consentient said:

I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of interest in The Netherlands map. I worked hard to find a Small Continents map that I thought was tough AND interesting. Ah well

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The Netherlands map is one of the most fun yet. My approach is just excruciatingly slow, and I don't like entering into big wars unless I have a lot of really free hours to concentrate on strategy. The problem is that it is so hard to guard your cities from so many directions AND make forward progress.

That spreadsheet is very clean! Nice job! It is missing some really good players but I can understand making a 5 game completed requirement to help promote more players posting.

I think this game requires a lot of free time. I also think some of the top players are into other things like Multi Player games with the NQ Group. I know others put all the time they have into HOF/GOTM games. Other players have said they do not like the informal approach of the DCL since they see many players reloading or replaying maps. That is only someones opinion though. One does not have to choose to reload/replay.

I really think the game is broken and other new games have taken player interest away. I prefer the base game as it is though and it is not hard to find new ways to make the game more of a challenge. I know I wouldn't play too much if we didn't have a handful of us sharing games and ideas.

Perhaps we should start another thread posting up save files from turn 80 as kb27787 has suggested and see if players will take over a game and post results? Just an idea and does not have to materialize.

*About the Netherlands Map: I enjoyed it very much. I was having trouble defending the continent that I took over in greed. It was unfortunate that I lost all my save files when I had to reformat my hard drive. I could replay it but I usually do not enjoy replays since I know where everything is and it is hard not to exploit that information.*

I am one of the players that does reload, as a learning process... like worker steeling, why did I loose the warrior that time, maybe if I did this, so I will reload and try...

I use these maps and threads as teaching tools, which requires that I try different approaches, which include reading the spoilers after my first play, and seeing if maybe what another did, improves my game, or hinders my play... and that also takes reloading. And with all learning, I learn more by my failures, and understanding why I failed, than just an easy walk through.

If it were not for the friendly competitions, and the opportunity to learn, I would be looking for other games to play.

And for those who want strict rules, that is what the HOF is for.

consentient said:

DCL #18 will offer something to the turtlers by ways of compensation. After two explicitly warmongering maps, there will be a map that evens things up a little bit. There will also be an interesting feature seldom seen in ANY game, and not yet seen before on the DCL.

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After turtling my way to a diplo victory in DCL17 i'm curious to see what you have for DCL18

Now i really need to learn how to do domination. Even in the Mongol DCL i couldn't get the victory quickly enough and came to a point where i was out-teched too much to be able to conquer anyone

I kind of proved that you can easily break the AI game enough to be able to turtle to a relatively late win win on a war-heavy map.

Bob Morane said:

Now i really need to learn how to do domination. Even in the Mongol DCL i couldn't get the victory quickly enough and came to a point where i was out-teched too much to be able to conquer anyone

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Maybe try DCL #1 with Zulu. I had it in mind since I haven't played it myself.

consentient said:

There will also be an interesting feature seldom seen in ANY game, and not yet seen before on the DCL.

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I wonder what that is. Perhaps 2 natural wonders in the capital - a dream for turtlers

I would enjoy not having to deal with a warmongering menace for a change... you know... compete fair-and-square with the AIs for those wonders...
I actually like isolated starts a lot; I don't really need those caravan beakers that much (and caravans tend to get plundered anyway by barbs)

btw, if you want a challenge, then don't bribe... I'm sure that would change A LOT of strats... (no bribing then backstabbing/getting your stuff back in a DoW)

Well, i didn't bribe anyone to go to war in DCL17. I did offer gifts to keep good relations but that's it. No tricky diplomacy.
What i did was an early preventive war against the closest threat, as i suggested in how to handle your neighbor so yes, i guess i "broke" his game in order to avoid being crushed but other AIs were left on their own business. One of them became the new warmonger but i did not bribe her to do it.

kb27787 said:

I would enjoy not having to deal with a warmongering menace for a change... you know... compete fair-and-square with the AIs for those wonders...

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I can't promise you anything except a good opportunity to test your 5-buffs = no DoW theory

Consistent, it's not really related to future challenges but what DCL would you suggest to someone who want to practice warmongering? I mostly win on Deity using a tradition "science turtle" game which is the easiest for me (only have to defend my homeland and i'm good at this even with a small army, don't have to worry too much about taking CSs, does not really require any wonder). In the German DCL i went diplomatic which is unusual but domination ...

I did try the Honor-Commerce-Autocracy with both China and Mongolia but in both games, after taking down 1 or 2 AIs with my UU, i had a hard time keeping the pace. Between happiness issues and terrain slowing me i couldn't take many more before my UUs were obsolete, and then i was behind in tech and war became really difficult.

I would guess that either Zulu, Mongolia or China would be best for Domination.

Yes those are the ones I'd pick. I thought that Germany was great for Honor-Commerce but I got quite lucky in that the tech pace of the AI was very weak. I myself have not mastered keeping the tech pace. I think the key is to either take enough cities to have overall good science, and/or to defer capture until the cities are somewhat bigger and better.

I still think that Liberty domination (poss. w Honor later) is more consistent than opening Honor, but maybe its because I haven't 'gotten' it yet. It could also be that not all maps are very good for it (though Peddorelm completed Zulu and Mongolia).

The next two DCLs will be a lot less about warmongering, as compensation for the Turtlers who have been patient with war-favouring maps on #16 & #17. But #20 is aimed to be the 'perfect' map - i.e. very easy and open to any play style and VC.

Then, starting with #21, we will rotate back to 'pretty difficult'.

[EDIT: Oh, and it's 'consentient'. I wish I was consistent! ]

consentient said:

Yes those are the ones I'd pick. I thought that Germany was great for Honor-Commerce

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Thanks for the answer. After two failed attempts i needed a break, also i consider Germany a late game power as they really have nothing in the early game for me. In this particular game i was incredibly lucky and got 3 barbarian units out of 6 camps but my usual conversion rate at immortal+ is 0 units out of 2-3 camps

I myself have not mastered keeping the tech pace. I think the key is to either take enough cities to have overall good science, and/or to defer capture until the cities are somewhat bigger and better.

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I found that tech pace is not really an issue as long as you have your UU (for strong UUs like those civs have) but i can't conquer fast enough to win with those alone and after they become obsolete i find out i'm lagging behind. Waiting longer to take cities will make for longer resistance and more lost and buildings and a shorter time to use UUs, don't know if it's better.

I still think that Liberty domination (poss. w Honor later) is more consistent than opening Honor, but maybe its because I haven't 'gotten' it yet.

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Liberty-Honor would mean you don't take commerce. Commerce is really good for happiness and warmongers need it. I feel like i would have even more happiness issues with Liberty-Honor. I guess i just need to practice, i've never been a very good warmonger, even on lower difficulties, i think i'm not fast enough. Lower diff, it does not matter cause i always end up ahead of AI in tech but Deity i need to focus science to be ahead.

But #20 is aimed to be the 'perfect' map - i.e. very easy and open to any play style and VC.

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Well, we'll see about this in time.

Oh, and it's 'consentient'. I wish I was consistent! ]

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Woops, sorry

might be a bit of a stupid question, but where IS the finisher spreadsheet.

Currently turtling with Morocco, I'm just going to post the finishing screenshot for archiving purposes

Stormtrooper, head to the first page of any DCL thread. Link is there.

@Bob Morane: Liberty-Honor give you no happiness problems and all the money you want. Dip into commerce for the opener and the roads.

Got it, thanks. Awesome, awesome work to compile all of this. Christ I wish I could have joined these forums earlier

consentient said:

I can't promise you anything except a good opportunity to test your 5-buffs = no DoW theory

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Well I didn't say ANY 5 buffs... and it's not really my theory... granted, things might've changed with the fall patch and whatnot so I'm not sure if some if this still applies...

From this:
http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/diplomacy.php
You can see that having same or different ideology PALES in comparison to other more important things (and that warmonger penalty, which can go over +100 is the scariest one of all and can override a multitude of green buffs)
Warmongers probably should consult here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/1nudz9/warmongering_calculations_updated_for_beta_patch/

And you can understand why going to war against a common foe (-50) overrides a lot of other transgressions (nuking them is also +50)

You can also see why stealing a CS worker via DoW and then making peace immediately when asked is much, much better than demanding tribute (which can be a worker) from the CS they pledged to protect (+15) which makes no sense at all and I wished they'd fix that...

Good Diplomatic Modifiers - Negative is Good

Score Action Taken by You or Situation
-80 We Liberated their Capital City - choose Liberate when conquering any City taken from them. Other Cities give smaller bonuses.
-35 We have made a Public Declaration of Friendship
-15 We have made Declarations of Friendship with the same Leaders
-15 We have Denounced the same Leaders
-30 We've Traded recently. This varies. A single GPT from you will not give a -30, but a Luxury for a Luxury will. Multiple deals may add up, but -30 is max, based on how good the deal is.
-30 They asked for help and we provided it. (Accept their request for help)
-20 Build a Landmark in their lands instead of Extracting Artifact
-15 They liked our Proposal to the World Congress - lasts 45 turns.
-20 We have helped them pass their Proposal to the World Congress - lasts 45 turns
-20 We have helped relocate the World Congress to their lands (Vote for them as host if they'll win anyway), lasts 45 turns
-5 We are both following the X Ideology
-20 You freed their captured Citizens (rescue Settler/Worker from Barbarian)
-5 You have adopted their Religion in the majority of your Cities
-3 They have willingly taken on your Religion in their Cities
-50 We have fought together against a common foe (War on same target, same time)
-6 You have no contested borders (either distant Civ, or they are not covetous of land)
-10 You forgave them for Spying
-1 We have an Embassy in their Capital



Bad Relationship Modifiers - Positive is Bad

Score Action Taken by You or Situation
+15-100+ Warmongering Penalties - read below. Can go far beyond 100 if you capture many Cities.
+50 We have used Nuclear Weapons
+35 We have Denounced them
+35 They have Denounced us
+15 We have Denounced Civs that they like
+15 We've made a Declaration of Frienship with one of their Enemies
+20 per Other Civs they like more than you have Denounced you
+15 You made a promise to other Civs to move your troops from their Borders, and then broke it!
+40 You refused to move your troops away from their Borders when they asked
+10-20 You built Wonders that they Coveted
+30 You have stolen their territory with a Great General
+80 You captured their original Capital
+10-30 They covet lands that you currently own
+35 They believe we are building new Cities too aggressively
+20 We asked them to stop Settling new Cities near us
+20 We made a promise to War with another Civ (10 turns), then broke it
+20 You made a promise to stop Settling Cities near them, then broke it
+15 They asked you to stop settling Cities near them, and you ignored them
+20 You made a promise to stop buying land near them, then broke it
+15 They asked you to stop buying land near them, and you ignored them
+20 You made a Trade Demand of them - Demand when interacting with AI
--- Your Spies were caught trying to steal their Technology - not a big hit, steal one tech but see below if you are caught:
+10 They asked you to stop Spying and you ignored them
+20 You made a promise to stop Spying, then broke it
+10 Ask them to stop Spying on you
+2 They are spreading their own Religion, but you Converted some of their Cities - Grows Worse
+8 You made a promise to stop Converting their Cities, then broke it - Grows Worse
+4 They asked you to stop Converting their Cities, and you ignored them - Growse worse
+15 They disliked your Proposal to the World Congress, lasts 45 turns
+20 We helped their Proposal fail in the World Congress, lasts 45 turns
+5 You have chosen to adopt the X Ideology while they believe in another. Adopting Ideologies sets Civs apart and can lead to War along with other accumulated problems throughout the game.
+30 You made a promise to stop excavating their Artifacts, and then broke it
+20 They asked you to stop extracting Artifacts, and you ignored them
+10-30 We are competing for the favor of the same City-States, depends on MinorCivCompetitiveness
+15 We bullied City-States under their Protection (gradually decays over 30 turns)
+30 Conquered a City-State under their Protection, and grows worse
+5 They mistreated your protected City-States and you didn't look the other way (decays over 10 turns)


So add up your buffs, then consult this page (very complicated but if you care to read it you can)
http://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/jcyda/ama_about_the_civ_v_brave_new_world_diplomacy_ai/

Basically:
================= Opinion =================
Addition of all Positive/Negative Diplomatic Modifiers. As you can see, > 0 is bad, < 0 is good!
-80 -40 -15 15 40 80
<------|------|------|------|------|------|------>
Ally Friend Favor. Neut. Comp. Enemy Unforg.

An Ally is -80, Friend -40, and so forth... an unforgiveable enemy is 80+
These affect how expensive it is to get stuff from them, how much they will ask for a war bribe or WC vote, and how willing they are to join you in DoW, etc.
You can use this to determine if it is safe to, say, propose something on the WC they don't like for example. If the hit does not carry you beyond the breakpoints above (if you are at -60 another +15 won't change your chances/margins on trade deals for example), then it is safe to do so without any negative consequences (as long as you still have the same green buffs).

Getting -80 is quite challenging, but doable if you wish to invest in it. It is nigh-impossible to be at -80 with everyone however (since not everyone likes everyone); being unforgiveable enemies with everyone however is quite easy warmonger penalty alone can do it.
Then I recall a formula somewhere else (if I find it I'll tell you) which calculates an AIs chances of DoWing each turn based on their flavor, relative military strength and the position you have with them. I just know that, for example ally Gandhi has ~0% chance of DoWing me (according to what I read) despite him having infinite death robots and I have nothing.
Ally Monty is another story...

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being antagonistic. It was not my intention at all

I know how all this scoring is supposed to work in theory, it's just that many times I think flavour and psychosis kicks in for many of the AI and they will DoW you no matter what. Covetousness is not something you can really do much about. And if your army is small and they see an opportunity, they will often go for it. They're programmed to try to win, albeit in a roundabout and crappy way.

What alarms me most is how inconsistent the Deity AI is. I've seen Sejong launch T210-230 and yet in some games the AI has forgotten what science is. Likewise, in the DCL #7 I would coup or buy a CS and the next turn Alex would buy or coup it back, yet other games the AI has like a million gold and forgets he can spend it. And lastly, with units: sometimes they spam to the point of cheating. And others they insist on building National Wonders while you siege their city.

So crap.

Anyway, back on topic: the next DCL favours turtlers by a huge margin. In fact, I cannot imagine anyone doing much warmongering at all (though I could be proved wrong). The map also makes use of a feature hardly ever seen in Deity games, and never before seen on the DCL. It features one of the very best civs, yet is still challenging. In fact, it MIGHT be the hardest DCL I'll have posted...not sure, we'll have to see.

Oh well, I've still got more than a week to build the hype

consentient said:

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being antagonistic. It was not my intention at all

I know how all this scoring is supposed to work in theory, it's just that many times I think flavour and psychosis kicks in for many of the AI and they will DoW you no matter what. Covetousness is not something you can really do much about. And if your army is small and they see an opportunity, they will often go for it. They're programmed to try to win, albeit in a roundabout and crappy way.

What alarms me most is how inconsistent the Deity AI is. I've seen Sejong launch T210-230 and yet in some games the AI has forgotten what science is. Likewise, in the DCL #7 I would coup or buy a CS and the next turn Alex would buy or coup it back, yet other games the AI has like a million gold and forgets he can spend it. And lastly, with units: sometimes they spam to the point of cheating. And others they insist on building National Wonders while you siege their city.

So crap.

Anyway, back on topic: the next DCL favours turtlers by a huge margin. In fact, I cannot imagine anyone doing much warmongering at all (though I could be proved wrong). The map also makes use of a feature hardly ever seen in Deity games, and never before seen on the DCL. It features one of the very best civs, yet is still challenging. In fact, it MIGHT be the hardest DCL I'll have posted...not sure, we'll have to see.

Oh well, I've still got more than a week to build the hype

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No worries I knew you weren't being antagonistic.
(and I would disagree about covetousness... at least land covetousness that is... you CAN do something about it.. by not settling near them or settling up a wall city in between and selling it to a 3rd civ) You can be literally within 2 tiles of their borders and still have zero contested borders as the game calculates if there is another AI in between you in that one tile. Target the competitive civs first and make sure they have no reason to want your stuff.

Wonder covetousness (well you SV or Dom guys hardly build the wonders the AIs want anyway) is another story...

Still it is VERY hard to get DoW'd by an ally (and I doubt any domination warmongers here have ever had one because of the warmonger penalty... you'd have to garner over 100+ worth in green buffs...) regardless of flavor in my experience; the thing is sometimes you just don't have enough buffs to net in at -80.

Although I've yet to see AI Korea win at t210 in BNW... (but I cannot recall a game where Korea sucked in science ever)