Im not good with riddles. Could you make your question/statement/whatever a little more clear?SE vs CE .. Science slider? Whip? Versatile? Just some things to consider, figure out the answer yourself.
Im not good with riddles. Could you make your question/statement/whatever a little more clear?SE vs CE .. Science slider? Whip? Versatile? Just some things to consider, figure out the answer yourself.
There are some good points to not switch ( of course the real in field situation may make this arguement stronger or weaker ):but post democracy, there's little point in not transitioning; and transition will always be slow enough not to whack your econ. - it's not like you have infinite workers...
How is this at all relevant?You're right to say that a full CE pwns a full SE of the same size..... and that a CE eventually will outrun a SE in the long run ( But ,as Mark Twain ( IIRC ) said : " In the long run, we're all dead"....unless you disabled time victory you have a limited ammount of turns to play ) . But you're not considering some factors:
This has nothing to do with CE vs SE.-first of all the game has a global positive feedback effect: a small advantage in early game normally ( not always.... ) leads to a bigger advantage as the game runs... having a 4th city 50 turns earlier can lead to a huge diference in the 1900ishs
Not only am i considering it, i covered it already. GP farms are not unique to SE. Past the first few GP, the farm will typically supply all of them. That is if its a good farm.- You're not considering all the SE bonuses and some of them are very subtle... IMHO the more powerful one is specialist settling
Using part of your specialists to pay the bills or using part of your commerce to pay the bills has no meaningful difference. Either way, what could have been beakers is being turned into gold.-another factor is that CE in early game is more constrained by city maintenance, since it forces to split your cash between science and city maintenance... a SE can hire merchants/priests to pay her debts or simply remove the cash issue from the research equation and get a earlier 5th/6th city, that can lead to a big diference
Yah, but each person is also worth more beakers and you cant eliminate the health issues a SE runs into. And by endgame i never seem to have problems getting 20-25 happy faces anyway so its only an issue early on.- CE is more affected by the happy cap
Im not. Im simply being objective about the fact that cottages are > specialists when it comes to research.P.S. I'm a CE fan...
My thinking goes more along the lines of, CE early on, then transition to HE once state property comes. At that point working workshops and turning hammers into beakers gives a better return than scientists but slightly less than cottages while being able to use the happy slider, say to defy UN resolutions that would kick your civics in the nuts.but i reckon that the SE early advantages can be used to get a edge, that properly worked, can lead to a huge end advantage
Simple... SE starts are normally stronger than CE ones in terms of prod and beakers.... if you're smart, you can leverage that advantage until the end of the game. A CE will steam up ,but as the game doesn't last for ever ,it may not surpass a SE before the game ending, even if the game ends in spaceHow is this at all relevant?
A valid aproach.... but just a thing about UN: a SE will always have more pop than a SE in the same ground ( farms produce food ,cottages don't.... ) ... A SE , even without the famous "storm early, capture lots of cities, run merchants to pay debts" will have a good chance of controling the UN, or atleast to block votes... You can check my version of Pericles LHC for a example.My thinking goes more along the lines of, CE early on, then transition to HE once state property comes. At that point working workshops and turning hammers into beakers gives a better return than scientists but slightly less than cottages while being able to use the happy slider, say to defy UN resolutions that would kick your civics in the nuts.
For about 10 turns. Its not a meaningful argument unless you plan on bulbing a few times, and the more you bulb the more you hurt your lategame.Simple... SE starts are normally stronger than CE ones in terms of prod and beakers....
People keep saying that. Care to demonstrate how?if you're smart, you can leverage that advantage until the end of the game.
10 turns. More if you bulb, but that advantage is caught up to by midgame.A CE will steam up ,but as the game doesn't last for ever ,it may not surpass a SE before the game ending, even if the game ends in space
Problem is im not a warmonger unless im forced into it. Last game i had 6 cities on an isolated island, SE wouldnt have stopped anything. And if i have enough land to block votes on my own, im probable running hammer cities anyway in order to get to that point.A valid aproach.... but just a thing about UN: a SE will always have more pop than a SE in the same ground ( farms produce food ,cottages don't.... ) ... A SE , even without the famous "storm early, capture lots of cities, run merchants to pay debts" will have a good chance of controling the UN, or atleast to block votes... You can check my version of Pericles LHC for a example.
1- For cottages you'll need pottery, that it isn't a game starting tech... For a SE you only need Agri or FishingFor about 10 turns. Its not a meaningful argument unless you plan on bulbing a few times, and the more you bulb the more you hurt your lategame.
And prod? No it doesnt.
10 turns. More if you bulb, but that advantage is caught up to by midgame.
Problem is im not a warmonger unless im forced into it. Last game i had 6 cities on an isolated island, SE wouldnt have stopped anything. And if i have enough land to block votes on my own, im probable running hammer cities anyway in order to get to that point.
I tried a space race victory with Peter of Russia running a SE.
My experience was that, between unhappiness from emancipation that required culture slider investment and +1+7 towns, SE seems to fizzle out starting somewhere in the industrial era (earlier if your rivals tech democracy ahead of you). Biology will give you a nice boost for a while, but SE still seems to fade as the late game progresses.
I imagine a transition of sorts would be the best bet, but since I try for military victories, I prefer to just try and win the game before it becomes a problem.
1 - So run specialists until you get pottery. That tech doesnt come late enough to make it a meaningful issue, and im usually busy building wonders and settlers by the time i get it anyway.1- For cottages you'll need pottery, that it isn't a game starting tech... For a SE you only need Agri or Fishing
2- SE are not restricted to scientists ones.... For a example if you play one of the Egypt leaders you can have a really strong priest SE ( even without mids )....hammers and money really soon
3- This game is not just about pure science.... and I bet than you can put a library down easier with a farm + mine combo than with a cottage ( yes they will be cottages ) +farm one
Im planning to do it with hammers in my next game. Just because something works doesnt mean its optimal, or even a good idea.My point is that I could put a full SE in space before Monarch AI
How?mainly because I could put science multipliers in cities far faster than I could put with cottage cities...
Agreed. But transition from what to what?
For example, a small non-financial empire often gets more beakers out of bureaucracy than whatever the one that adds 2 to a town is called (yah i use that civic so often i dont remember its name).
That leaves me with 5 commerce towns. With improved farms a SE could beat that, if health allowed me to have 40 people. It never does.
Hence, my opinion is that specialists are for specialized situations. Mostly limited to GP farms, excess food, and the occasional gambit.
A valid approach.... but just a thing about UN: a SE will always have more pop than a SE in the same ground ( farms produce food ,cottages don't.... )
A SE is not any better at production or whipping than a CE (nevermind that slavery is only useful for so long in either case). Where do you people get these ideas?
2 cities, 4 population.
A) All 4 working farms
B) All 4 working cottages