FfH2 0.33 Changelog

I do think that unique palaces should be blocked, just as heroes are. It is a bit out of character, though one could say that it means a warmongering civ took charge in Elohim federation and dominated the true Elohim.
 
I agree. To preserve all the traits and flavour of the original civ foreign palaces should be blocked.
It should just allow the cities to retain their culture, not morph ruling civilization into the conquered civ... No that it could not happen, but just does not fit FfH.

This trait is nice for Elohim and spices them up, which they really need. But Einion moving to Balseraph or sheaim palace? Or the other way around? It does not fit any of the civs, not just Elohim. Even Balseraph would "decorate" and adjust any other palace to their taste, not keep the boring Bannor or Elohim one.
The palace change simply would not happen.
 
I still think the whole assimilation idea based solely on the original builder of a city is a bad one. Basing it on the city's dominant Culture would be much better.

Frankly, I'd also rather it be a game option rather than a trait, and to give the Elohim something else.
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Spells like bloom should really work on top of improvements that can be built without removing a feature, not only for civs that can build without removing the features. In other words, I should be able to cast bloom on a tile with a camp, instead of having to pillage it, cast, and then rebuild it, even when I'm playing as a dwarf.
 
Actually, if it was based off ANY culture at all and allowed multiple Unique Build orders it would fit the Elohim flavor fairly well.


If an outside culture has at least 1% culture in an Elohim City, then it enables the city to construct the Unique Units/Buildings of that Civilization AND those of the other Civilizations with some Culture present. But the price is divided by the percent culture (thus if you are 100% Elohim, all your UU/UB are normal price. If you are 50% Elohim then all of yours will be double price. If you are 1% Balseraph, you can make a Mimic at 100x the price which the Balseraph pay)



Doing it this way will fit the flavor of the Elohim a bit better. They are encouraged to spread their cities out (to get the most possible neighbors), and they will desire to assist the cultural development of other Civilizations (so they can Culture Push against the Elohim and establish some culture in the city). They also want to forge peace amongst all nations (so that there are more available UU/UBs.



What would go well with this change would be to provide the Elohim with some semi-expensive UUs who have large Culture Garrisons. Make them be called "Ambassadors" or something. Replace a useful military unit with them and have them be useless for military IMO, though not needed.

With a large Culture Garrison value, it means that if you station a few of that unit in your city you can be dropped down to a single tile only by Culture push and STILL not flip culturally. That would allow the Elohim player to minimize his culture output and maximize how many other Civs push Culture into his borders.

The unit would be self-limiting by being expensive. As the Elohim gain more outside culture, their culture percent diminishes and the cost of the Ambassador goes up (or they have to maintain 1 city at pure Elohim culture and mass produce them there).



Another good function which would be added with this feature is to let the Elohim work any tiles in ANY cultural boundaries within range of a city (and not already being worked). Thus the Elohim could be pushed down to a single tile of culture, but still work tiles as normal (until the other culture pops a city down in range to steal the tiles away)
 
Nevermind, missed a page.
 
Poor Yvain. I suppose, he's quite surprised with the change, that happened. Maybe, that is the effect of last Mutate by Loki, which he'll never cast again? :)))

Fascinating changelist. Can't wait till Friday.
 
I still think the whole assimilation idea based solely on the original builder of a city is a bad one. Basing it on the city's dominant Culture would be much better.

I understand and agree thematically, but it sounds potentially annoying gameplay wise. I prefer Kael's current implimentation.

I also don't see why its not thematic to give Elohim this ability. Granted, it lets them warmonger, but if you (the generic "you", as in the player) are concerned about it... just don't warmonger!

I've played the Elohim, and I get declared war on. In order to get the AI to stop the war, I generally have to go knock out a few cities. Tolerant seems to fit quite well, once the cities are captured, the Elohim tolerate the conquered people.

Might not work that well with the Sheaim, etc, but... just don't build them :p
 
I understand and agree thematically, but it sounds potentially annoying gameplay wise. I prefer Kael's current implimentation.

I also don't see why its not thematic to give Elohim this ability. Granted, it lets them warmonger, but if you (the generic "you", as in the player) are concerned about it... just don't warmonger!

I've played the Elohim, and I get declared war on. In order to get the AI to stop the war, I generally have to go knock out a few cities. Tolerant seems to fit quite well, once the cities are captured, the Elohim tolerate the conquered people.

Might not work that well with the Sheaim, etc, but... just don't build them :p

Well, 0.33 in not yet released so i will wait until i have played it before giving my final opinion, but at first glance i agree with MC that this implementation of the Tolerant trait is not fit for Elohim.
The tolerant trait is simply a lot better for warmongering than Aggressive or even Charismatic and it is applied to the most known Peacemonger civ of Erebus. So at least from a gameplay point of view it doesn't seem really fit with them.

I also think that this implementation will be really overpowered if this trait doesn't get some nerf, you could potentially get all the advantages that other civs get!

About flavour, it also contradicts Elohim which objective is to preserve Erebus, so i'm sure that they wouldn't tolerate some of the Sheaim toys, or even Infernal ones
 
Well the bad thing about the tolerant trait is that you (probably) won't be able to build the Elohim buildings and units in those cities.
 
Xienwolf's idea a few posts up sounds absolutely awesome. I bet it would be an absolute nightmare to code though.
 
Well, 0.33 in not yet released so i will wait until i have played it before giving my final opinion, but at first glance i agree with MC that this implementation of the Tolerant trait is not fit for Elohim.
The tolerant trait is simply a lot better for warmongering than Aggressive or even Charismatic and it is applied to the most known Peacemonger civ of Erebus. So at least from a gameplay point of view it doesn't seem really fit with them.

But it is peaceful, you're allowing the people to live as-is rather than wholesale genocide in the city.

I also think that this implementation will be really overpowered if this trait doesn't get some nerf, you could potentially get all the advantages that other civs get!

Yes, but only in those cities.

About flavour, it also contradicts Elohim which objective is to preserve Erebus, so i'm sure that they wouldn't tolerate some of the Sheaim toys, or even Infernal ones

They are preserving it, that's why they're not razing the city or committing genocide on the populace. Sure, it doesn't make sense when you talk about the Sheaim, but if you're worried about it just don't build their buildings/units!

These are just game mechanics, roleplaying a civ is up to you as a player. If you feel the Elohim shouldn't build a Sheaim unit, as I do, then don't build them. Besides, from a Gameplay point of view, Elohim desperately needed something interesting. I almost never play them, because they are very, very bland currently.
 
They may be a peaceful civ, but in Erabus no one is immune to corruption. There have been many times the Elohim have become fallow in my games. An Evil AV worshiping Elohim could very well happen in this world perverting their tolerance to a dark view that all will be peacefully once all civs stand under their flag, and using their captured cities basic abilities, traits, and units would still fit their world view (though twisted it maybe).
 
Actually, I much prefer Xienwolf's idea too. I don't think it is beyond his coding ability. He should implement it himself in his modcomp/FF and then see if he can convince Kael to borrow it.

I still think it might be better as a game option that works with any civ rather than a trait.

I'm not sure I like the idea of them being able to work tiles out of their borders though.



Hmm...I was just thinking, what would you think if any (good?) civ could build monks (maybe requiring a new monastery building, which a monk could build?), but once created the monk would always belong to the Elohim? It could be interesting, but the ability to have multiple Elohim civs could cause problems (it would have to randomly pick one of them I guess). It should probably be limited to civs who have contact with the Elohim, and are not at war with them.
 
Of course, if Grey Fox's Broader Alignment modcomp was included, it would accurately reflect that corruption. Want Pyre zombies and Moroi? Sure thing, but you'll be a lot less "good" than you were before.

On a related note, how does upgrading work? Say I have a Sheaim city, and I want my (originally) Elohim mages to become Eaters of Dreams. Can I do that, or would I have to build a Sheaim adept and wait...and wait...and...
 
Darkwood is right, no one should be spelling out how to Elohim should act. Secondly please no more butchering of the tolerant trait. It's a cool and flavorful mechanic but it is useless unless you capture a lot of cities and have time to build up the unique units -- after making it self-sufficient. Capturing enough to make it imbalanced is more a difficulty problem than a trait problem. In this case the answer should be self-evident.

It is not like it allows you to build Pally's and Eid's at once.

I like how Kael & Co. made it and it should certainly be tried out before all these nerfs.
 
I agree that FfH2 is already open to outcomes like Elohim AV worshippers.... or that i can play the game as Elohim peacefully without conquering civs but....

in my opinion if Elohim are peacemongers, game mechanics should encourage to play with them peacefully...then if I want to conquer the world with them I'm free to do that.
It's a bit like playing Clan of Embers and having game mechanics which make them strong for a Cultural Victory.

I know that Elohim really need something to make them more interesting but as others pointed out i don't find this implementation of Tolerant really fit....btw i'm waiting for 0.33 to test it
 
As it stands - assuming the Elohim are good and take a Sheim AV city - is there any coding which encourages them to raze the city in order to reduce the AC count anyhow?
 
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