whoward69
DLL Minion
It has the code changes from about three nights ago, and a few fixes I added myself ... as you can tell, it's a bit of a "work in progress" at the moment
City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)
- Thread starter Gazebo
- Start date
It has the code changes from about three nights ago, and a few fixes I added myself ... as you can tell, it's a bit of a "work in progress" at the moment
Great feedback. I'll address your bigger points here, though I've definitely noted all of them for future releases.
1.) Re: paper. I agree. Balance may be off at first, but I think it'll help in the long run. Also being able to buy out a rival civ's paper supply (they value it a little more than uranium) will be a new diplomatic strategy.
2.) The era-dependency will come in time for the Great Diplomat. Also a resolution just for diplomats (essentially a 'Global Peace Initiative' or something like that).
3.) I'll fix gunboat diplomacy.
4.) The AI can be wonky. That's unavoidable. Currently the 'choosing a city-state' logic focuses on proximity, then rival influence level, then maximum personal influence level. So, for example, if an AI player has 0 influence with a minor, but another player has 300, they will ignore that city-state until it is more favorable. If, however, they have 120 v. 300, they'll try to take it away. If their influence ever exceeds 150 influence over the cap of alliance with a city-state, they stop trying (unless it is taken away from them). Lastly, for the final 1/3 of the game, if no city-state is a viable target, they send their units to the nearest city-state they are not allied with. Eventually I hope to make the AI focus on different cs personalities, but that's a lot more work (and the proximity rules play well with the AI's pathfinding).
5.) The AIs obsession with diplomacy varies. Some games it is crazy, others they don't seem to care. I've been gradually tweaking the proclivity flavors, however, in the end, the AI does what it wants.
Thanks again!
And, Ausse_Lurker, if you are reading this, I'm about to finish up work on a city-state quest for you (worked on it before work this morning): City-state requests for you to go to war with another major civ. Fun stuff!
G
It has the code changes from about three nights ago, and a few fixes I added myself ... as you can tell, it's a bit of a "work in progress" at the moment
Yeah, right now (v15), I'd use the CSD dll. I'm in a bit of a 'strange mood' right now and I'm pumping out more dll changes than normal. Once my additions to minor quests are complete, I'm handing all dll stuff over to whoward.
Also, since all content since v14 is based on .dll work, I'm going to declare the non-dll version of csd to be final at v14 unless a major problem is encountered. I'd rather focus my energies on adding new content outside of the vanilla .dll.
G
Update:
Here's v15.1, with a new city-state quest: Declare War on Major. Will occur only if you haven't recently bullied the city-state and the city-state was bullied by someone else. Once you declare war on the bully civ, you gain 50 influence. The tooltips were being a bit wonky, so let me know if it is working or not for you.
Cheers,
G
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Fantastic work, Gazebo. Are you sure you're not really SANTA? ;-)
Possibly! You never know.
I fiddled around with the circumnavigation idea, however the existing functions seem half-baked. I think we'll have to set that one aside until someone more advanced than I (ahem- whoward -ahem) takes a stab at it.
I did put together a National Wonder one that I hope to finish up tomorrow. So far, so good - a global quest to be the first to build a national wonder should spice things up.
G
thanerion
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2013
- Messages
- 64
Adding new quests is awesome, but there might be an issue of meeting CS with some of this. Because Open Borders come quite after Sailing and/or Scouts, it's not easy for stuff like that to really be competitive. After all, I assume that the quests will work in a way that recognizes the first national wonder built among the civs that know the CS.
Most National Wonders that are built by everyone (Heroic Epic, National Epic, National College, Oxford University, Grand(Great?) Temple, etc.) are built before Caravels go through the seas to discover most CS or until barbarians are eliminated from the main land and boarders are opened. Up until this point, on non-pangea maps larger than Standard, on Standard speed, you may know 1/4 up to 1/2 CS in the game. When it's closer to half, it's fine, but if not - you may have serious issues (last game on v14 I discovered 3 CS before reneissance, my friend discovered 4, on a Huge map - the rest required Astronomy to reach). After medieval, most national wonders are built by civs that require it to achieve a particular victory condition.
This actually puts a lot of randomness in diplomacy, which is fine (culture is also random, as you never know where the archeological sites will be - the only non-random victory condition is science, that is the main reason that it's so easy to acomplish in comparison - especially that it also requires almost no interaction with other civs except for maybe Research Agreements depending on difficulty - and these are not very hard to get either, since you get to know every civ sooner or later - and you certainly know all of them when it matters).
This is also an issue (albeit a small one - but since all the bigger ones are already handled ;p) with the logic behind diplomatic units - in times when you rely on quests, you don't really know many CS on most bigger maps.
There are few things that can done about this, if within the scope of the mod (very vague ideas):
- introduce a condition, similar to World Congress (or World Congress resolution) that introduces every CS to everyone, but eliminates the "gold / faith gift" that CS give when met,
- reuse the "at war" mechanic which allows you to meet CS that someone else has met, but not only when at war, but under other circumstances (like a special World Congress motion to form a "Senate", in which all CS meet,
- since meeting CS is much more important with the mod (as you can't just buy them when they are important), you could introduce a unit with earlier ocean capability and/or earlier scouting capability (a scout upgrade - I use the Explorer mod, but Explorers come late),
- motivational - "meet a CS" quest similar to "meet a civ" quest,
- earlier open borders or perhaps "ignore borders" promotion for scouts building - or just a possibility to pick such a promotion,
- somehow allow CS to scout for more people - then can get a scout or caravel earlier.
Other ideas for quests:
- put forward a motion (like Arts Funding or Worlds Fair or Revoke: Embargo CS - influence loss on voting for Embargo CS would be epic),
- win Worlds Fair / International Games (with some influence for 2nd and 3rd place),
- civil unrest quest - there is a power clash in the CS, diplomat pops there are +X% more effective, spy actions are also +X% more effective - lasts until elections (which are in fixed intervals, as spies pop always on the same turn),
- vote yay or nay for motion (this can actually be cool if some CS want yay and others want nay),
- less "get most culture / faith / science" quests,
- adopt a certain ideology.
It would be extremely awesome if CS had something to do with ideology - more decay of influence (not by much, just something, less so if it's the world ideology) for civs that have a different ideology, less decay if civs ideology match with that of the CS. World Ideology could make CS shift their prefered ideologies. This would be a thing if you really have a lot of time, as I assume coding it would require an ungodly ammount of work.
Most National Wonders that are built by everyone (Heroic Epic, National Epic, National College, Oxford University, Grand(Great?) Temple, etc.) are built before Caravels go through the seas to discover most CS or until barbarians are eliminated from the main land and boarders are opened. Up until this point, on non-pangea maps larger than Standard, on Standard speed, you may know 1/4 up to 1/2 CS in the game. When it's closer to half, it's fine, but if not - you may have serious issues (last game on v14 I discovered 3 CS before reneissance, my friend discovered 4, on a Huge map - the rest required Astronomy to reach). After medieval, most national wonders are built by civs that require it to achieve a particular victory condition.
This actually puts a lot of randomness in diplomacy, which is fine (culture is also random, as you never know where the archeological sites will be - the only non-random victory condition is science, that is the main reason that it's so easy to acomplish in comparison - especially that it also requires almost no interaction with other civs except for maybe Research Agreements depending on difficulty - and these are not very hard to get either, since you get to know every civ sooner or later - and you certainly know all of them when it matters).
This is also an issue (albeit a small one - but since all the bigger ones are already handled ;p) with the logic behind diplomatic units - in times when you rely on quests, you don't really know many CS on most bigger maps.
There are few things that can done about this, if within the scope of the mod (very vague ideas):
- introduce a condition, similar to World Congress (or World Congress resolution) that introduces every CS to everyone, but eliminates the "gold / faith gift" that CS give when met,
- reuse the "at war" mechanic which allows you to meet CS that someone else has met, but not only when at war, but under other circumstances (like a special World Congress motion to form a "Senate", in which all CS meet,
- since meeting CS is much more important with the mod (as you can't just buy them when they are important), you could introduce a unit with earlier ocean capability and/or earlier scouting capability (a scout upgrade - I use the Explorer mod, but Explorers come late),
- motivational - "meet a CS" quest similar to "meet a civ" quest,
- earlier open borders or perhaps "ignore borders" promotion for scouts building - or just a possibility to pick such a promotion,
- somehow allow CS to scout for more people - then can get a scout or caravel earlier.
Other ideas for quests:
- put forward a motion (like Arts Funding or Worlds Fair or Revoke: Embargo CS - influence loss on voting for Embargo CS would be epic),
- win Worlds Fair / International Games (with some influence for 2nd and 3rd place),
- civil unrest quest - there is a power clash in the CS, diplomat pops there are +X% more effective, spy actions are also +X% more effective - lasts until elections (which are in fixed intervals, as spies pop always on the same turn),
- vote yay or nay for motion (this can actually be cool if some CS want yay and others want nay),
- less "get most culture / faith / science" quests,
- adopt a certain ideology.
It would be extremely awesome if CS had something to do with ideology - more decay of influence (not by much, just something, less so if it's the world ideology) for civs that have a different ideology, less decay if civs ideology match with that of the CS. World Ideology could make CS shift their prefered ideologies. This would be a thing if you really have a lot of time, as I assume coding it would require an ungodly ammount of work.
Thanerion,
Thanks for the awesome feedback. Here are my thoughts:
- I'm having problems with the national wonder quest because of the randomness of the wonder distribution system. I'm trying something different, but if that doesn't work I'm going to simply just make it a personal quest (i.e. similar to world wonder, but for national wonders). Will at least add a new quest type. The other new quest (DOW on bully) is fun, and works very well. I may amp up the influence earned from 50 -> 70, to hopefully increase chance of minor going to war as ally.
- As far as meeting minors, I think the current system has its benefits. It does encourage exploration (few victories do, aside from archaeology -> culture), and it makes the world congress a significant milestone. I did add three resolutions to the world congress through which any voting player can adjust the influence levels of any minor in the congress (even ones they haven't met).
-I think a mid-game 'explorer' unit is a great idea, but it falls outside the scope of this mod, as well as the scout promotions and free scout/caravel. I'll leave those to other entrepreneurial modders.
- I like the 'meet a minor' quest - I might try that one and see how it works.
- As far as your quests are concerned, some of those are covered by my new congress resolutions. In fact, all except for the influence % boost one are covered. By the mid-late game, a bit more control over the 'quests' of city-states via resolutions is, I think, a more equitable means of helping diplomatic victories. I might reduce the number of turns between congress meetings in order to expedite interaction and resolutions in the renaissance/industrial eras. We'll see.
As far as what I have left to do, here's the short list:
1.) Influence per era for Great Diplomats
2.) Fix national wonder quest
3.) Look into 'find minor' quest
Other changes going on:
- removed GD bonus from Arts Funding - thanerion was correct. I'll just leave the GD out of the +/- 33% matrix, as it is a bit of a 'win more' mechanic (and the GD stands alone as a GP).
- added influence vectors for congress resolutions - AI much more interested in using and fighting congress resolutions they like/don't like.
G
Thanks for the awesome feedback. Here are my thoughts:
- I'm having problems with the national wonder quest because of the randomness of the wonder distribution system. I'm trying something different, but if that doesn't work I'm going to simply just make it a personal quest (i.e. similar to world wonder, but for national wonders). Will at least add a new quest type. The other new quest (DOW on bully) is fun, and works very well. I may amp up the influence earned from 50 -> 70, to hopefully increase chance of minor going to war as ally.
- As far as meeting minors, I think the current system has its benefits. It does encourage exploration (few victories do, aside from archaeology -> culture), and it makes the world congress a significant milestone. I did add three resolutions to the world congress through which any voting player can adjust the influence levels of any minor in the congress (even ones they haven't met).
-I think a mid-game 'explorer' unit is a great idea, but it falls outside the scope of this mod, as well as the scout promotions and free scout/caravel. I'll leave those to other entrepreneurial modders.
- I like the 'meet a minor' quest - I might try that one and see how it works.
- As far as your quests are concerned, some of those are covered by my new congress resolutions. In fact, all except for the influence % boost one are covered. By the mid-late game, a bit more control over the 'quests' of city-states via resolutions is, I think, a more equitable means of helping diplomatic victories. I might reduce the number of turns between congress meetings in order to expedite interaction and resolutions in the renaissance/industrial eras. We'll see.
As far as what I have left to do, here's the short list:
1.) Influence per era for Great Diplomats
2.) Fix national wonder quest
3.) Look into 'find minor' quest
Other changes going on:
- removed GD bonus from Arts Funding - thanerion was correct. I'll just leave the GD out of the +/- 33% matrix, as it is a bit of a 'win more' mechanic (and the GD stands alone as a GP).
- added influence vectors for congress resolutions - AI much more interested in using and fighting congress resolutions they like/don't like.
G
thanerion
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2013
- Messages
- 64
@Gazebo:
perhaps you are right that the Congress already has much interaction with CS. It would be cool for the "Embargo CS" resolution to have some ... influence over influence, so to speak.
I also agree with the exploration part - though have in mind that exploration is rarely worth the trouble (you have more important techs, policies and stuff to build to really focus on it - it gets done in the meantime).
What really bothers me is not to widen the gap between victory conditions even further - science diplomatic is extremely easy as is, because it requires nothing beside Tall "Empire" SIM - you don't have to explore, send units anywhere, fight for anything - only entrench in your position in the mountains and build, build, build. On the other hand, cultural and diplomatic victories are much more active. Thus, they should have a way of blocking science somewhat and encourage exploration more. Cultural civs, in theory, do this by promoting civil unrest via ideology (though we all know how it works and how hard it is to acomplish), Diplomatic civs do this via Scholars in Residence and not allowing Science Funding - actively discouraging GSs is hard, because it requires you to vote Art Funding, which is not good, but I digress - by the time it is passed, it doesn't really matter that much anyway, as most of Information era should be bubbled through with GS from Hubble and Faith anyway.
As for the "try-to-be-helpful" part of the post, I'd add:
Improving era-scaling for Great Merchant is something I'd heavily consider. There is a mod that does it, true (I don't know about any collision here - as I am regretfuly only a lawyer, not a coder, so I can't really offer as much help as I would like), but since you upset the balance of the game (in a good way) by removing influence from GM - it would be good to fix it within the mod that alters it, making up for GM being significantly weaker (GMs are already weak - the gold they give is currently pitiful in later eras - influence was a large portion of GMs power). Otherwise - placing a GM on the ground would be the only rational thing to do. Also, many wonders which up to this point were super-awesome for diplo win (Collosus and The Great Lighthouse) will be significantly weaker, because they will provide useless GPP points.
As for the quest / condition improving diplomat pops and spy action, I think it is still needed (but far from required) - baseline Civ has "For X turns, gold gifts are better" and "Give gold for bonus Influence to influence you already get" - diplomats are cool, active way of playing diplomacy, and not all CS should be hard to get - some may just make it easy (or easier) via quests that are simple to do like the old "give gold to get more" - I remember you were thinking about a quest to send a diplomat and didn't like it - but I think improving diplomats instead of quests to pop them would be a good way and introduce room to ally a CS-of-opportunity, just like it was by default.
An even more detailed version could include influence falling if you didn't do the quest (this is actually funny with "bully X" quests - they are just random stuff you never do, as there are no consequences for failing, and often, or always, cons outweight the benefits). I think diplomatic victory shouldn't be that hard - getting rid of cheesy stuff is a good way, and the execution is awesome, but there are really few "active" quests that one can pursue - you won't do bullying, you won't destroy anyone (or you would do it anyway and the fact that it pops a quest is just a bonus, not the deciding factor by far), and most are passive - you gather culture, faith and science anyway. Most "active" and engaging quests you can find is share faith (which, most times, you want to do anyway) and send a trade route (like that is really "active"), perhaps give a unit or destroy encampent (the last one is actually the best, but increasingly rare as the time passes). We could use more "active", engaging ways that make allying a CS-of-opportunity easier.
Like: instead (or beside) "bully X" we could use "scare X" (since the mechanic is already there for "could demand tribute" - I think) and focus the "heavy guns" on those few impotant, contested CS or the "improved efficiency of diplomats and spies" I'm mentioning. If all 10-24 CS are contested as heavily, diplomatic victory is not worth the trouble.
Resolutions you have created are awesome, and they are very cool on most map sizes - but on Large or Huge, they are sometimes (not always) not worth the "slot", which can be used to Embargo a scientific civ, go forward with World Religion, Ideology or Revoke some iritating stuff that was passed when you had less votes (like Arts Funding or Embargo City States passed before CS votes matter usually). I wouldn't put too much money on World Congress as a tool of CS manipulation, as it's efficiency and power in that regard is extremely map-size dependant. As the ammount of City States increases, the value of influence in a single CS falls. Unless there is a highly contested CS and you have the votes, on larger maps resolutions don't really make as big of a difference as they do on a smaller map where you have few CS and each of them is highly contested.
perhaps you are right that the Congress already has much interaction with CS. It would be cool for the "Embargo CS" resolution to have some ... influence over influence, so to speak.
I also agree with the exploration part - though have in mind that exploration is rarely worth the trouble (you have more important techs, policies and stuff to build to really focus on it - it gets done in the meantime).
What really bothers me is not to widen the gap between victory conditions even further - science diplomatic is extremely easy as is, because it requires nothing beside Tall "Empire" SIM - you don't have to explore, send units anywhere, fight for anything - only entrench in your position in the mountains and build, build, build. On the other hand, cultural and diplomatic victories are much more active. Thus, they should have a way of blocking science somewhat and encourage exploration more. Cultural civs, in theory, do this by promoting civil unrest via ideology (though we all know how it works and how hard it is to acomplish), Diplomatic civs do this via Scholars in Residence and not allowing Science Funding - actively discouraging GSs is hard, because it requires you to vote Art Funding, which is not good, but I digress - by the time it is passed, it doesn't really matter that much anyway, as most of Information era should be bubbled through with GS from Hubble and Faith anyway.
As for the "try-to-be-helpful" part of the post, I'd add:
Improving era-scaling for Great Merchant is something I'd heavily consider. There is a mod that does it, true (I don't know about any collision here - as I am regretfuly only a lawyer, not a coder, so I can't really offer as much help as I would like), but since you upset the balance of the game (in a good way) by removing influence from GM - it would be good to fix it within the mod that alters it, making up for GM being significantly weaker (GMs are already weak - the gold they give is currently pitiful in later eras - influence was a large portion of GMs power). Otherwise - placing a GM on the ground would be the only rational thing to do. Also, many wonders which up to this point were super-awesome for diplo win (Collosus and The Great Lighthouse) will be significantly weaker, because they will provide useless GPP points.
As for the quest / condition improving diplomat pops and spy action, I think it is still needed (but far from required) - baseline Civ has "For X turns, gold gifts are better" and "Give gold for bonus Influence to influence you already get" - diplomats are cool, active way of playing diplomacy, and not all CS should be hard to get - some may just make it easy (or easier) via quests that are simple to do like the old "give gold to get more" - I remember you were thinking about a quest to send a diplomat and didn't like it - but I think improving diplomats instead of quests to pop them would be a good way and introduce room to ally a CS-of-opportunity, just like it was by default.
An even more detailed version could include influence falling if you didn't do the quest (this is actually funny with "bully X" quests - they are just random stuff you never do, as there are no consequences for failing, and often, or always, cons outweight the benefits). I think diplomatic victory shouldn't be that hard - getting rid of cheesy stuff is a good way, and the execution is awesome, but there are really few "active" quests that one can pursue - you won't do bullying, you won't destroy anyone (or you would do it anyway and the fact that it pops a quest is just a bonus, not the deciding factor by far), and most are passive - you gather culture, faith and science anyway. Most "active" and engaging quests you can find is share faith (which, most times, you want to do anyway) and send a trade route (like that is really "active"), perhaps give a unit or destroy encampent (the last one is actually the best, but increasingly rare as the time passes). We could use more "active", engaging ways that make allying a CS-of-opportunity easier.
Like: instead (or beside) "bully X" we could use "scare X" (since the mechanic is already there for "could demand tribute" - I think) and focus the "heavy guns" on those few impotant, contested CS or the "improved efficiency of diplomats and spies" I'm mentioning. If all 10-24 CS are contested as heavily, diplomatic victory is not worth the trouble.
Resolutions you have created are awesome, and they are very cool on most map sizes - but on Large or Huge, they are sometimes (not always) not worth the "slot", which can be used to Embargo a scientific civ, go forward with World Religion, Ideology or Revoke some iritating stuff that was passed when you had less votes (like Arts Funding or Embargo City States passed before CS votes matter usually). I wouldn't put too much money on World Congress as a tool of CS manipulation, as it's efficiency and power in that regard is extremely map-size dependant. As the ammount of City States increases, the value of influence in a single CS falls. Unless there is a highly contested CS and you have the votes, on larger maps resolutions don't really make as big of a difference as they do on a smaller map where you have few CS and each of them is highly contested.
Alright, 15.2 is now ready:
Additions:
- InfluencePerEra for Great Diplomat (+15 per era)
- Boosted base gold and gold per era for Merchant (400 and 125, respectively)
- Added three new C-S quests:
- Updated VotingClasses to make AI much more interested in stopping/starting the three new congress resolutions.
- Reduced Interval between World Congress sessions slightly.
- Halved influence per turn from Gunboat Diplomacy (6->3)
This is in addition to added stuff from earlier (War Quest, art, tweaks, etc.)
Going to take a break on new content for awhile now - I think I've done my part (and my brain is killing me).
Please report back if you see any balancing problems or errors. I'll wait a bit before taking this one live as the official v15.
I've done my best to add in and address the ideas many of you have brought forward - please let me know if you like the changes. Also, continue to spread the good word about CSD!
Cheers!
G
Update: There's a slight 'oops' in 15.2 regarding the new influence-boosting Global Quest - it grants +75% instead of +25% influence. I'll fix this shortly and update the file here. If you are already using 15.2, don't worry, as the mod works fine - you'll just get a little more bang for your buck while this quest is active.
Update 2: 15.2 updated to 15.3 to fix quest influence bug (was giving too much). Works now. You may be able to load saved games from 15.2 with this version, but no promises. v15 below is now the latest version.
Additions:
- InfluencePerEra for Great Diplomat (+15 per era)
- Boosted base gold and gold per era for Merchant (400 and 125, respectively)
- Added three new C-S quests:
- Build National Wonder (personal, but can be completed by another player before you),
- Find City-State (like 'Find Player' quest, but for CS- focuses on distant CSs)
- Find City-State (like 'Find Player' quest, but for CS- focuses on distant CSs)
-30-Turn Influence Boosting Global Quest (Diplomatic Conference at CS leads to +25% more influence from missions).
- Updated VotingClasses to make AI much more interested in stopping/starting the three new congress resolutions.
- Reduced Interval between World Congress sessions slightly.
- Halved influence per turn from Gunboat Diplomacy (6->3)
This is in addition to added stuff from earlier (War Quest, art, tweaks, etc.)
Going to take a break on new content for awhile now - I think I've done my part (and my brain is killing me).
Please report back if you see any balancing problems or errors. I'll wait a bit before taking this one live as the official v15.
I've done my best to add in and address the ideas many of you have brought forward - please let me know if you like the changes. Also, continue to spread the good word about CSD!
Cheers!
G
Update: There's a slight 'oops' in 15.2 regarding the new influence-boosting Global Quest - it grants +75% instead of +25% influence. I'll fix this shortly and update the file here. If you are already using 15.2, don't worry, as the mod works fine - you'll just get a little more bang for your buck while this quest is active.
Update 2: 15.2 updated to 15.3 to fix quest influence bug (was giving too much). Works now. You may be able to load saved games from 15.2 with this version, but no promises. v15 below is now the latest version.
Sorry Thanerion, I missed your post. Great stuff as always.
Agreed, but I don't know that it falls within the scope of this mod. The best way, I think, is to nerf Rationalism and spread the scientific love around throughout the rest of the policy tree. Perhaps add a science-related perk to each tree, then make rationalism focus solely on GS generation, research agreements, gold from science stuff, sped up science production of buildings, science from strategic resources, etc. In short, the best way to fix the science victory is to force players to reach out and interact with the world. I'd be particularly interested in seeing a few rationalism perks focus on the acquisition of luxury/strategic goods instead of just passive % boosts to BPT.
Regarding ideological unrest, I think the impact of tourism simply needs to be buffed. It is too easy to ignore 'revolutionary waves' at this point. On a side note, it might be fun to make a new patronage policy, at some point, that gives a player bonus tourism from trade routes/alliances with city-states.
I boosted the GM in 15.2. I may boost more once I see how gold levels increase during the game. Gold is still useful, mind you being able to buy buildings and units w/o wasting production is great, and the AI knows how to do it now as well.
You and I were on the same page with this one - I started work on this last night (and finished up this afternoon). Works well, seems fun.
I agree, though in the vanilla game the diplomatic victory is essentially the 'time' victory. I wanted it to feel a bit more heated, thus CSD. I think CSD strikes a nice balance - in many test games I completely ignore diplomatic units (even as a science civ) and the AI takes everything. This prevents me from having any say in the world congress which can be unforgiving at times. I think, however, there is a certain level of 'power gaming' we have to watch out for. Players that seek the 'beeline best-strat 1800AD science win' are going to play the game much differently than anyone else. They are out to break the game, essentially, by ignoring the vast majority of mechanics. Most players dabble in all victory types, focusing on one a little more than the others. CSD fits somewhere in-between.
This is, unfortunately, a byproduct of the game's core mechanics. The more players you add, the less swing weight any single player has. I think the world congress could be stronger - the current resolutions are fun and potentially-game-changing, but they happen too infrequently (esp. during the renaissance/industrial ages). I think reducing the delay between congresses will buff it.
Let's see how 15.2 does. I'm very happy with the changes, and I think CSD is better than it ever has been.
G
Agreed, but I don't know that it falls within the scope of this mod. The best way, I think, is to nerf Rationalism and spread the scientific love around throughout the rest of the policy tree. Perhaps add a science-related perk to each tree, then make rationalism focus solely on GS generation, research agreements, gold from science stuff, sped up science production of buildings, science from strategic resources, etc. In short, the best way to fix the science victory is to force players to reach out and interact with the world. I'd be particularly interested in seeing a few rationalism perks focus on the acquisition of luxury/strategic goods instead of just passive % boosts to BPT.
Regarding ideological unrest, I think the impact of tourism simply needs to be buffed. It is too easy to ignore 'revolutionary waves' at this point. On a side note, it might be fun to make a new patronage policy, at some point, that gives a player bonus tourism from trade routes/alliances with city-states.
I boosted the GM in 15.2. I may boost more once I see how gold levels increase during the game. Gold is still useful, mind you being able to buy buildings and units w/o wasting production is great, and the AI knows how to do it now as well.
You and I were on the same page with this one - I started work on this last night (and finished up this afternoon). Works well, seems fun.
I agree, though in the vanilla game the diplomatic victory is essentially the 'time' victory. I wanted it to feel a bit more heated, thus CSD. I think CSD strikes a nice balance - in many test games I completely ignore diplomatic units (even as a science civ) and the AI takes everything. This prevents me from having any say in the world congress which can be unforgiving at times. I think, however, there is a certain level of 'power gaming' we have to watch out for. Players that seek the 'beeline best-strat 1800AD science win' are going to play the game much differently than anyone else. They are out to break the game, essentially, by ignoring the vast majority of mechanics. Most players dabble in all victory types, focusing on one a little more than the others. CSD fits somewhere in-between.
This is, unfortunately, a byproduct of the game's core mechanics. The more players you add, the less swing weight any single player has. I think the world congress could be stronger - the current resolutions are fun and potentially-game-changing, but they happen too infrequently (esp. during the renaissance/industrial ages). I think reducing the delay between congresses will buff it.
Let's see how 15.2 does. I'm very happy with the changes, and I think CSD is better than it ever has been.
G
I just heard about this mod, still fairly new to Civ 5. I'm really looking forward to try the latest version this weekend!
I've had only one Diplo victory so far. Although the game itself was fun, because I didn't really know what to do for the victory, the system in your mod sounds a lot better than the rather bland buy city state system. thanks in advance for your great work, I'll make sure to come back for some feedback once I played around with the mod.
I've had only one Diplo victory so far. Although the game itself was fun, because I didn't really know what to do for the victory, the system in your mod sounds a lot better than the rather bland buy city state system. thanks in advance for your great work, I'll make sure to come back for some feedback once I played around with the mod.
Hi G
Just thought I'd let you know that based on the release notes v15 looks awesome!
I'm currently playing a game with v14 (with Whowards dll v35) and enjoying it.
Can I use v 15 without a dll and what are the limitations if I decide to go on with using whowards dll (yours sound fantastic but I've quickly gotten used to using his and would have a hard time disabling them)?
\Skodkim
Just thought I'd let you know that based on the release notes v15 looks awesome!
I'm currently playing a game with v14 (with Whowards dll v35) and enjoying it.
Can I use v 15 without a dll and what are the limitations if I decide to go on with using whowards dll (yours sound fantastic but I've quickly gotten used to using his and would have a hard time disabling them)?
\Skodkim
whoward69
DLL Minion
Glad to hear it! I hope you enjoy it. As always, I appreciate feedback, comments, criticisms, etc.
G
Yeah, v37 is compatible with the latest version of CSD. You may get a bit more influence from the new global quest than was intended (unless whoward silently updates his v37 .dll), but all other features will work perfectly.
G
You are welcome!
whoward69
DLL Minion
Version numbers are free, the fix will be in v38
Ha! I'll remind you of that when you are on v.110 someday.
Sounds good- sorry again about the error.
G
