Italy in BNW
- Thread starter JFD
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Yes. The general audience is wrong; I cannot disagree with you here. Ultimately though, this is a game, not a course in history and the game starts being inaccurate as soon as America gets founded alongside China.
We strive for historical accuracy. Because nothing is more accurate than Japan fighting the Songhai in South America
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You're telling me that the Roman-Persian Nuclear War in South America during the 1770s didn't happen? How do you explain Russian Iberia then? HMM?
He carped about semantics instead of anything substantial, and I asked him if he'd anything of the latter to discuss. I'm sorry if that makes you sad. I'm sad for you.
In terms of actual arguments, each one against Italy has been pretty handily addressed one after another. So, I guess this is what's left to do. Nitpick and snark.
It seems you're holding onto some lofty notion of what makes a civ worthy of being in the game. What exactly makes a civ important in the grand scheme of things?
The renaissance was born in italy, and it was more than just "some paintings and stuff". That's why there's a whole era devoted to it. Even if it weren't, culture is one of the four paths to victory. Apparently "paintings and stuff" can indeed make you a world power, and it seems like they'll be pretty important to winning the game in the upcoming expansion.
And beyond their great artists, they produced great scientists, engineers, and merchants. Despite your declaration that this is not the accomplishment of a civilization, generating great persons is very much within the realms of what civilizations do in this game. Italy generaed many that are household names. Along with works of art, wonders, cultural achievements, scientific advances. Matter of fact, just about anything a civ is supposed to do, Italy did. The only exception would be military conquest. If your argument is that only civ's that went wide should be legitimate considerations, please clarify.
Ultimately, it's all an exercise in relativism. To disqualify Italy, you have to demonstarte why a civ like, say, Korea merits inclusion but Italy doesn't. That's a futile exercise, my friend, because the standards applied by the folks designing the game simply aren't that strict.
Arrow Gamer
America's Dictator
I fail to understand why you see the Renaissance as inherently amazing. All it was was people rediscovering the accomplishments of nations already in the game. Who cares if they made buildings along with paintings? What effect does it have on the rest of the world, or even half of Europe? Nada.
Also, he wast using semantics to further his argument. He was pointing out you don't know what some words mean, backed up by the point you are quite literally using an ad hominem in every post you make. So what are you? A hypocrite or someone unwilling to google the meaning of a word they handy around?
Also, he wast using semantics to further his argument. He was pointing out you don't know what some words mean, backed up by the point you are quite literally using an ad hominem in every post you make. So what are you? A hypocrite or someone unwilling to google the meaning of a word they handy around?
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Seriously, I don't get the Eurobois and gurls up in here on the greatness of Italy. The Italian Renaissance was just that, Italian. By the time it started going into full swing, Europeans were already heading west and the Italian city-states were on the downslope of their power and prestige thanks to the Ottomans AND Spain and Portugal's expeditions west.
You could rename the Renaissance the Colonization Era because that is when most of those techs pop up anyway.
You could rename the Renaissance the Colonization Era because that is when most of those techs pop up anyway.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Yeah, we should have a parallel poll:
Should Italy be represented as a full civ in BNW, in any form? (Italy, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Naples, Sicily, Papal States, etc...)
- Yeah, they are a worthy addition
- No, Rome and the city states are enough
I'm sure the no would be winning by far...
Should Italy be represented as a full civ in BNW, in any form? (Italy, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Naples, Sicily, Papal States, etc...)
- Yeah, they are a worthy addition
- No, Rome and the city states are enough
I'm sure the no would be winning by far...
JanghanHong
Enrico Trololo
Korea merits inclusion because it's one of few (the only) Asian civ that is tall and focused in science, which is good for people who doesn't want to play a wide science game using China or Maya. they also have two very unique units that come relatively at the same time in the renaissance era, the Turtle Ship and Hwacha. Those two units actually existed in real life and they offer a unique experience in wars because they are so different from the units that they replace.
Korea also has 50 million people and many followed Civilization franchise from the start, myself included. So native appeal to Korean players were guaranteed. not only that, it has been available in Age of Empire II and other strategy games and they are presented in a similar fashion, a turtle tech civ with heavily armored units. They were popular in those games because there really isn't a historical alternative to Korea, all the other tall science civs either have ancient units or play more or less the same as all the other civs. Korea has been filling that niche in various strategy games for a decade now.
Italy on the other hand... read all the other reasons in this thread.
So as you can see, it wasn't futile at all.
Now you know what that word means.
What word (or words) are you under the impression were used incorrectly? Arbiter? Logical? Fallacies? Misonceptions?
Arrow Gamer
America's Dictator
And I never said he was right. For the sake of The Lord, get over this one point. I am right, and you are wrong.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
True the splendour of the Renaissance has been romanticised and over stated, but the idea of the Renaissance is firmly established as the peak of European civilisation. This idea is, within the context of the game, more important, because it has widespread appeal.
First comes the focus on culture for the expansion, which Italy is not short of and which Italy is not short of being known for. Then comes a new focus on trade, for which several Italian states, principally Venice and Genoa, are renown. Then there is the World Congress and the Papal States certainly fit the bill for a small state with great diplomatic influence. Finally, for the Scramble for Africa scenario there are only three recognizable European powers not in the game - Portugal, Belgium and Italy. Of these, Portugal is, without a doubt, guaranteed and I suspect Belgium would not be included to avoid any controversy. None of this guarantees Italy (and its involvement in the scenario alone wouldn't be enough to warrant its inclusion as a full civ), but I can't think of a more suitable candidate to represent what this expansion is to introduce.
I think the prime opposition to Italy is that it would be another European state, but I don't feel that the Roman Civ and the various Italian city-states do the culture justice; the former has little to do with "modern" Italy and the latter have no substance. I would still prefer a Venetian Civ, however.
First comes the focus on culture for the expansion, which Italy is not short of and which Italy is not short of being known for. Then comes a new focus on trade, for which several Italian states, principally Venice and Genoa, are renown. Then there is the World Congress and the Papal States certainly fit the bill for a small state with great diplomatic influence. Finally, for the Scramble for Africa scenario there are only three recognizable European powers not in the game - Portugal, Belgium and Italy. Of these, Portugal is, without a doubt, guaranteed and I suspect Belgium would not be included to avoid any controversy. None of this guarantees Italy (and its involvement in the scenario alone wouldn't be enough to warrant its inclusion as a full civ), but I can't think of a more suitable candidate to represent what this expansion is to introduce.
I think the prime opposition to Italy is that it would be another European state, but I don't feel that the Roman Civ and the various Italian city-states do the culture justice; the former has little to do with "modern" Italy and the latter have no substance. I would still prefer a Venetian Civ, however.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Alright, seeing the much bigger anticipation for Italy than I expected, I'm getting very curious what is the exact case about this
Will make this poll in a minute
Oh, really?
I was under the impression half the european "civilizations" owed quite a bit to the renaissance technology improvements and discoveries. But I guess not. I mean, who cares right? Technology, culture... utterly useless, you can't even bash some skulls with this sh**.
All right, seriously now. Italy's inclusion might raise a bit of stir because of the enormous amount of european civs in game and all, but saying the renaissance was nothing? Makes me wonder which kind of books you read in your history lessons.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
I think he means to point out that much of the Renaissance is the re-discovery of lost knowledge (or the adoption of existing Middle Eastern knowledge), rather than the creation of new knowledge. That doesn't mean the Renaissance wasn't important, but just that it may have been romanticised a bit much.
Yet you're speaking up to defend him (or at least, to argue against me). So, you sort of support him, but sorta don't as well. Anyway, as you don't have any specific diction to call into question, we'll move on...
Great, you're talking about gameplay. That's a fine means of establishing a civilization's distinctiveness. Then again, that begs the question of why haven't such considerations been applied to Italy, rather than focusing on arbitrary notions of what constitutes a civilization. So, let's consder it in that context.
Here we are with a new, improved culture system on the way. We have a revised cultural victory that entails generating great works of art and tourism. If we were looking for a civ to attach to these new concepts, wouldn't Italy be a good fit?
JanghanHong
Enrico Trololo
What technologies would they be? Printing Press originated from Gutenberg's Germany, and even then, Chinese and Korean printing press predates them.
Christopher Columbus would still have been employed by the Spanish to claim half of the Americas. Italian Renaissance was almost entirely restricted to visual art, and in Italy. Most of the times, people just use the name to describe the era, which CIV does, but most of the things that matter didn't originate from Italy, it just lends the name to the era.
Compared to the renaissance, Newton/Leibniz's Calculus and the Industrial revolution in Britain was much more influential. Industrial revolution in fact, is the second revolution after Agriculture, Agricultural revolution gave a person the ability to do the work of 10 people (provide surplus food to 9 other people, many of them children), Industrial revolution gave a person the ability to do the manual labor or 100 people.
Interesting fact: We're now at the third revolution, the Information Revolution which began in 1980. (Computer, Internet), we can now access information that would have taken 100 people to gather using standard libraries and academic method.
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