Deity - science probs

I started playing again. But every single game I get out-teched really badly near the end of the game. Sometimes like 2 era's...

I couldn't find a good guide. Most are either not on deity or are still G&K. Best one I found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Fk2HlLpUA but it's also G&K and it just doesn't work for me.
There must be some on this forum but I can't find it.

Basically I need:
- A general tech-order. Now I go writing > low level techs like mining as req. > education > ?
- A build order for my capital. Like right now I go monument > granary > worker > library > ?
- What wonders are a must-have for science? And how do I get them before the AI does?
- Do I add workers into my science buildings for GS?
- Is a mountain near your starting city a must for the one-city-challenge science victory? And if so, is it okay to have some dessert tiles around it then?

I can by no means win every Deity game I play, but I can definitely stay competitive scientifically. With that said:
-There's less of a requisite tech order in BNW than there was in G&K, IMO. Unless you're Babylon or doing OCC and want the NC up REALLY fast, I probably wouldn't go Writing first; you can stay competitive scientifically with trade routes until you get the NC up. If I'm on a coast and meet a few people early, Pottery --> Sailing can actually be quite a good option. Otherwise, it's really up to you to judge your surroundings. Pretty much everyone starts with Pottery, but beyond that there isn't a be-all-end-all tech order. Generally, grab the worker techs you need and Construction (for Composite Bows) and then head up around Education. (Taking detours to Compass and/or Engineering for extra trade routes can often be a good idea, though).
-Build order for the cap really depends on tech order. But where's the scout in your build order? Most people would recommend Scout --> Monument --> Shrine (if you want a pantheon/religion) --> Worker (if you don't like stealing them) --> Library (or Cargo Ship if you have good trading partners).
-Must-have wonders for science? Not many, but Oracle is generally easy to get as long as you get to Philosophy fairly quickly. Porcelain Tower is quite strong and is usually VERY easy to get, as AI's rarely go Rationalism.
-You mean specialists? YES YES YES. I don't even know how you could win a science game on Immortal without specialists.
-For OCC, pretty much yes, it's required. Are you playing OCC, though? If you are, that's probably why you're falling behind; OCC science on Deity is certainly possible, but it's very difficult and you tend to fall behind later when you don't have other cities to boost your science output.

- Yeah I usually play Babylon, that's why I get writing first. I then use the GS on a hill if possible.
- So people skip the granary early on? that will hurt my growth quiet a bit.
- I meant specialists yes .
- I thought OCC was easier. Because one city is really easy to defend, especially as Babylon. Multiple cities can be a pain to defend + you annoy the AI with your expansions. Did BNW not have a tech penalty for every city that you build?

SilverDash said:

- Yeah I usually play Babylon, that's why I get writing first. I then use the GS on a hill if possible.

Click to expand...

As a guy who can't beat Deity either, I'm not really in a position to criticize, but this seems like a bad idea to me. You're choking early growth not settling on grasslands, no?

SilverDash said:

- Yeah I usually play Babylon, that's why I get writing first. I then use the GS on a hill if possible.
- So people skip the granary early on? that will hurt my growth quiet a bit.
- I meant specialists yes .
- I thought OCC was easier. Because one city is really easy to defend, especially as Babylon. Multiple cities can be a pain to defend + you annoy the AI with your expansions. Did BNW not have a tech penalty for every city that you build?

Click to expand...

-Don't settle the GS on a hill, that really hurts growth. Put him on a strategic/bonus resource, or if you have none, grasslands. The reason to put it on a strategic or bonus resource (NOT luxury) is that it naturally has a better yield, so you get more out of the tile. GP improvements on strategic resources will connect the resource, but ones on luxuries will NOT.
-I just forgot to mention the granary. Yeah, you should get that up fairly quickly, right before the Library IMO.
-Yeah, OCC is MUCH harder. Yeah, it's tougher to defend multiple cities, but 3 well-run cities will produce as much or more science than 1 OCC city. Defending 3 cities should still be fairly easy if you're building enough defense. You shouldn't annoy the AI with expansion with just 3 (or even 4) cities. There indeed is a 5% tech penalty, but that should be incredibly easy to overcome with your 2nd/3rd/4th cities. With Babylon, I can understand not going with 4 cities (although that's what I'd do), but 3 will make your game a thousand times easier while still being easily defendable.

I skipped the granary and just buy it instead.
All attempts where from the same savefile on turn 1.

Attempt 1:
3 city opener:
- Turn 50: Attila walks over me with a really really huge army. Even my Babylon walls and single bownman fell after 4 turns...

Attempt 2:
2 cities:
- turn 116: I actually managed to catch up in science. I was leading along with the other top civs. But again, here I got overrun by Attila (again). I barely researched those units and he already has like 8 of 'em right at my border..

Attempt 3:
- 3 cities
- I fell behind in tech because I build an army to defend myself. I gave up because I know that in about 60 turns I will fall so far behind that I will be overrun by units that are like 1-2 era's newer than me.

Doesn't anyone have a great LP or a guide for 'idiots' on how to beat a deity science victory in BNW. Preferably against warmongers+pangea. It's so hard to balance army vs tech/growth.
Immortal = piece a cake btw.

SilverDash said:

I skipped the granary and just buy it instead.
All attempts where from the same savefile on turn 1.

Attempt 1:
3 city opener:
- Turn 50: Attila walks over me with a really really huge army. Even my Babylon walls and single bownman fell after 4 turns...

Attempt 2:
2 cities:
- turn 116: I actually managed to catch up in science. I was leading along with the other top civs. But again, here I got overrun by Attila (again). I barely researched those units and he already has like 8 of 'em right at my border..

Attempt 3:
- 3 cities
- I fell behind in tech because I build an army to defend myself. I gave up because I know that in about 60 turns I will fall so far behind that I will be overrun by units that are like 1-2 era's newer than me.

Doesn't anyone have a great LP or a guide for 'idiots' on how to beat a deity science victory in BNW. Preferably against warmongers+pangea. It's so hard to balance army vs tech/growth.
Immortal = piece a cake btw.

Click to expand...

I was having that problem, and my solution was to play as Poland and get a lucky costal start where everyone sent trade routes to me early game, but nobody could reach me by land early very easily. It was basically an optimal starting location with the best civ in the game, so that win wasn't too difficult. I'd say Venice and Poland are the best civs if you're going for your first deity science win, as Poland is just awesome, and Venice can get a good military through city states and not have a huge area to defend.

You can see the link to this thread in my signature. (edit: maybe? I'll try to put it on here. Not sure why it isn't working, but here it is anyway)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=508099

SilverDash said:

I skipped the granary and just buy it instead.
All attempts where from the same savefile on turn 1.

Attempt 1:
3 city opener:
- Turn 50: Attila walks over me with a really really huge army. Even my Babylon walls and single bownman fell after 4 turns...

Attempt 2:
2 cities:
- turn 116: I actually managed to catch up in science. I was leading along with the other top civs. But again, here I got overrun by Attila (again). I barely researched those units and he already has like 8 of 'em right at my border..

Attempt 3:
- 3 cities
- I fell behind in tech because I build an army to defend myself. I gave up because I know that in about 60 turns I will fall so far behind that I will be overrun by units that are like 1-2 era's newer than me.

Doesn't anyone have a great LP or a guide for 'idiots' on how to beat a deity science victory in BNW. Preferably against warmongers+pangea. It's so hard to balance army vs tech/growth.
Immortal = piece a cake btw.

Click to expand...

It seems like your biggest problem isn't science, it's Attila. A couple questions:

1) Are you giving up on these attempts upon DoW, or upon losing your capital? The AI is tactically horrible and a seemingly hopeless attack can often be beaten back. Try to settle on hills, behind rivers, near mountains or other choke points, and buy/build walls when possible. The Tradition policy that gives higher city combat strength to cities with a garrison can make your city attack a one-shot against some units. You're fighting Attila, though, so ranged attacks won't do the trick. You need some melee units to distract/obstruct/destroy those Battering Rams before they're upon you, 'cuz they've got Cover and your ranged attacks are less effective.

2) Have you tried bribing Attila to attack somebody else, or bribing somebody else to attack Attila? Take Tywin Lannister's advice here. Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens.



As for science, if you're playing Babylon I really like the NC rush strategy. Babylon's my strongest Civ, I manage a Science victory on Deity with him. . . maybe 4/5 of the time, but I usually play Continents or Small Continents so it's a little easier. I don't think I've ever started with more than 3 cities on Babs, because 1) I want to get that NC up as fast as possible (turn fif 60) and 2) staying small keeps the AI off my back. I've never had a big problem keeping my science high with only a few cities, or even one.

1. Try this guide:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506043

2. Also there was a Poland guide on these forums which sometimes works nice
3. Watch this, and the rest of his videos (I am not saying they are the best but take a look):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3gfRmWNVKQ

In a nutshell, get 3-4 cities fast, get NC, get Education, from then on focus on growing your cities/keeping them happy and sign as many RA as you can

Avoid wars if possible, bribe AI to DoW some1 else.

My advices:

1. Get Arabia, Korea or Babylon.
2. Prioritize growth, granaries and lighthouses ASAP, riverside farms.
3. On techs, philosophy, civil service, education, scientific theory, plastics, with occasional detours if needed, like water techs, trade techs, or you simply need gold and want banking, poor on rivers, need go down to fertilizer, etc.
4. On policies, win-win: Full Tradition, Patronage for consulates, Rationalism to secularism, Order/Freedom (witchever the strongest culture player has chosen, or your neighbor if you want to play peace).
5. Bribe warmonger to other nearby players, try to keep the rest happy.
6. On specialists, guilds with low priority, once education, focus science maybe letting in a few ingeneers already growing. Plant GS until modern, then bulb them out.

Option B default victory:

Same as previous but with some changes:

0. If you find Greece in the game, just restart.
1. Keep a healthy economy, prioritize gold after science, do some trading posts, keep trade routes at max at all times, water prefered.
1. Get fast into industrialization and try to engineer big ben.
2. Instead of rationalism go first commerce opener up to the 25% discount on purchases, then rationalism to secularism, then order for the 33% discount on buildings, then finish commerce and do some trading posts on grassland instead of farms
3. Purchase as much buildings as you need to try to get a decent position, 73% discount is no joke.
4. When you feel comfortable, prioritize gold instead (TPs and GM), buy all CSs, win on atomic era with fallback victory (DV).

Ninakoru said:

0. If you find Greece in the game, just restart.

Click to expand...

Hehe, nice advice

would not recommend OCC. babylon is great, but you need more cities for scientist factories.

parts said:

As a guy who can't beat Deity either, I'm not really in a position to criticize, but this seems like a bad idea to me. You're choking early growth not settling on grasslands, no?

Click to expand...

Yes you are right, plant on non river grassland or even better non river wheat. Horses are ok too, as it will hook them up and unless you have multiple stable Rez you might not even build one. I prefer not improve them though. You do need to focus on growth exclusively. If playing Babs quick writing to NC is great, then expo.

Wow so many replies .

@keirador:
1) When my capitol is about to fall or when a DoW is sent and I see SUCH a huge army that I just know that it's over or when 1 or 2 of my cities next to my capitol are completely overrun. This can set me back so far that I don't find it do-able winning with science.

2) I tried bribing (worked great in G&K) but nobody wants to go to war with him and he doesn't want to go to war with someone else. But I'm not really rich or anything so I don't have a lot to spend on that. I spent everything in science, neglecting my military and economy pretty hard so I do not have enough to trade him.


Yeah I'm now using GS's on strategic resources (if any is visible) and if not then just on grasslands (not next to a river).


@Ninakoru
Trying that tech-path now.


@sun8119
Trying Shoshone right now. See attachments. I fell behind in science however compared to England. My 4th city delayed my NC too much and later in the game it took a while before they wanted a dof with me (delaying my RA's). Also I'm about 1 era slower than I should have been. 3 techs away from research labs. This game is too hard for me.

SilverDash said:

Wow so many replies .
My 4th city delayed my NC too much and later in the game it took a while before they wanted a dof with me (delaying my RA's).

Click to expand...

Try to plan out NC, its vital. On turn 60 you should plan with libraries you will buy, set small cities to all production, etc to combo finishing philosophy and starting NC. No worries if you build NC with 2 or 3 cities, build it fast. People usually go NC as fast as possible, many people build NC on turns 70 to 90, and the later in Deity could be a bit slow though.

Thanks all. I won that Shoshone deity-science game . I had to reload once but I did it.

It got really close though.
- I was being overrun by tourism. Then I paid all other nations from my ideology to attack that 'tourism-nation' and it was done .
- At some point I got massively denounced (don't know why) but then I purchased a nuclear missile (I shortly beelined this tech) and all of a sudden almost all civs were afraid and since then it all become so peaceful .
- The 2x 50% (porcelain tower + rationalism) boosted my science so hard that I made up for the entire era or so that I fell behind. And okay, paying other nations to go to war with each other also did the trick . End-game I have no use for my money, oil, coal, etc. anyway.

So the trick is probably:
- know what to tech
- strong build order early game
- 3-4 cities = a big plus
- good diplomatic skills
- no nearby warmongers
- large populaton, lots of farms
- lots of gold (you need it to prevent war and to prevent other nations from winning the game before you)
- luck

do Deity AI not offer RA's if you have enough gold on hand? i usually try to be Friendly with 2 or more AI at least just for the RA.

sure they do. The AI isn't any different, it just has a bunch of advantages.

Off-topic a little, but I think what people fail to do most often on Deity is play their diplomatic cards correctly. By paying to DoW/maintaining friendships with the right AI's/denouncing the right AI's, you can often avoid almost all wars (if not all of them). Doing so allows you to build up your infrastructure leagues faster to the point that you can handle a DoW if it comes up unexpectedly later in the game.

At some point they all wanted to be friends with me and if they get the "afraid" status then making RA's doesn't cost anything extra either. Usually I have to pay them like 2 iron on top of the RA. Even if I just donated like 350gold to them (because they did not had enough money for the RA)...
Also, if you have many dof's then if someone is plotting against you they will usually warn you (if they have spies).
But early-mid game nobody wanted to sign a dof with me. So no RA's at that point of the game for me no matter how much gold I had.

And I agree that one was missing. Proper diplomacy also saves valuable time (and maybe your entire empire). Buildings troops = waste of time and war cripples the city that is being invaded (they block your tiles).

And I got lucky (no warmonger anywhere near me).