Calabim - What religion?

And here I am again. My last thread in here was also about religion, but that was about Svartalfar, Council of Esus, and Fellowship of Leaves.

This time, it's the Calabim. I'm not sure what to make of them, religion-wise, or what religion they canonically would follow. My Order->Empyrean Calabim sparked a semi-lengthy discussion in another thread, due to the unresolved issues between Vampires and Lugus, and Order sets them to Good, despite them starting out as Evil - depending on how you justify it, I can see how that's not entirely thematically correct (altough I personally have no problem rationalizing it).

I just don't see much of an incentive for Octopus Overlords, Ashen Veil or Fellowship of Leaves, whilst Order offers a civics like Social Order, Vampire->Paladins and bless (to offset the slightly lower strength of the average Vampire), and Empyrean offers Vampires->Radiant Guards->Paladins (If you took Order before, you should be stuck on 'Good'), resulting in Sun II, Body II, Necromancy II Vampires with a whole bunch of free promotions and good defensive/offensive capabilities.

Council of Esus would be very thematic, but the main benefits of Council of Esus are gained without actually having the religion, and Calabim doesn't depend on any of the things offered by CoE (Recon units, for example).

I'm pretty set on my Empyrean vampires, but I'd love to hear some arguments or get a discussion going on the subject, since it's something that have been on my mind for a while (since Calabim became my new favourite civilization).

So, taking suggestions!

As I said in another thread a few minutes ago, I think the answer for the Calabim is "whatever religion you like best overall", because they don't have a particularly strong synergy with any of them. That's empyrean for me.

If you go empyrean without hitting order first, you become neutral, meaning you can upgrade Vicars to Druids that can cast crown of brilliance, and eventually vamp them when they hit level 6. Better than vampiric paladins if you ask me.

I'm of two thoughts on vampiric religion.

First off, keep in mind that my Calabim are pretty much always beelining Feudalism, although I've heard good good things about beelining BW and doing a massive moroi rush. Since CoL and Trade are on the way to Feudalism, it's a pretty short step to founding Order, Empyrean, or Esus. If the Malakim are around, they may beat you to Empyrean. If the Bannor are around, they are somewhat less likely to beat you to Order. As for Esus, I find it's nice to have around, but I never want it as my actual state religion.

My old plan was to go Order to turn good, and switch to RoK in the midgame (1) to pick up the mines if I don't have iron, and (2) to get 4 stonewardens to 26xp, vamp them, and turn them to paladins. That way I get to keep 4 shield of faith casters when I go back to Order for the late game. Order has a lot of synergy. Calabim don't get as much maintenance reduction from governor's manors, so the basilicas are really handy to have. Plus, the unyielding order of the high priests means that those size 40 cities you grew for feasting don't have to worry about happiness problems. On the other hand, the governor's manor does give +1 hammer per unhappy citizen, so unhappy people are really no different than non-specialist citizens.

My new strategy is to use Empyrean. Now, you know that the Empyrean get Radiant guards, an axemen comparable unit that gets to use metal weaponry, doesn't require a building, and has channeling 2 + sun 2 (blinding light). Now, Radiant guards upgrade one of two paths - Rathas or champions. Hmmm....what's the Calabim equivalent of the champion? Oh, yes, it's the vampire. In a city with a governor's manor, and feudalism, all your Radiant guards upgrade to vampires, for a mere 125 gold each. So let's see, that's a unit with free body 1, death 1, sun 2, channeling 1 + 2, that can use metal weapons, and can feast for xp? Hell yes, sign me up! Oh, and going Empyrean means you stay neutral, so you can (ab)use the Undercouncil, and build druids. There's only one little problem. NEVER pasture horses, EVER. Because as soon as you get horses, your Radiant guard become obsolete, and all you can build are Rathas.

It strikes me that there is a third option that I've never personally tried. On the way to feudalism, you need to take the early seafaring techs to get to trade. Octopus Overlords are only be a short detour as well. Someone with more OO experience will have to tell you about this option.

If you haven't won already pick whatever religion you need to get along with your neighbours. The power of Calabim comes from their manors and not a minor synergy with any religion. Else just pick whatever religion you like most.

I've gone with order in a recent game.

Bless is a great spell for buffing your already powerful vampires, and it closes the base power gap between them and normal champions

You can also vampirise valin, which works nicely.
I oringinally picked order for the unyielding order spell. Alas, because it removes all unhappiness in the city, it has the side effect of negating the governor's manor production bonus. Likewise with building the Tower of Complacency if you pick OO

Unyielding order will probably still be good for my main food city though.

Also, these obsoleting issues really need to be sorted. Radiant guards are a very different thing from rathas, and shouldn't be obsoleted. Likewise with moroi and vampires, or Paramanders and SoK

while unyiedlding order does remove those tasty hammers, social order works just as well, albeit more expensive.

Gwythur said:

[...]
There's only one little problem. NEVER pasture horses, EVER. Because as soon as you get horses, your Radiant guard become obsolete, and all you can build are Rathas.

[...]

Click to expand...

That's wierd, because I'm positive that I've had some cities capable of building both, while I've had other cities capable of only building Rathas. Regardless, I agree that it's a pain in the ass. Am I the only one that thinks that units that upgrades from one unit class to another should never be obsolete? As in the case of Melee->Mounted.

I tend to set all my workers on automate, unless I have a very specific task (build road to x) so not building pasture horses is somewhat out of the question. I wonder if I can trade them away to someone else, just because..

Sephi said:

If you haven't won already pick whatever religion you need to get along with your neighbours. The power of Calabim comes from their manors and not a minor synergy with any religion. Else just pick whatever religion you like most.

Click to expand...

I know, my favourite is already Order->Empyrean (although I'll have to try out Vampiric Empyrean Druids at one point or another). I want to know your favourite, and why.

A city can build radiant guards unless it can also build everything radiant guards can upgrade to.

At feudalism, governor's manor + horses = no RGs.

Answer: Build manors. Build radiants while researching something like fanaticism or religious law. once you have a number that satisfies you, research feudalism and upgrade em.

Monkeyfinger said:

A city can build radiant guards unless it can also build everything radiant guards can upgrade to.

At feudalism, governor's manor + horses = no RGs.

Answer: Build manors. Build radiants while researching something like fanaticism or religious law. once you have a number that satisfies you, research feudalism and upgrade em.

Click to expand...

Ah, thanks a lot. That explains it. Since I rarely or never use mounted units I do think I'll stick to trying to not have horses. I'd even rather keep a city (or several) without a manor, have it produce Radiant Guards, and then move them to another city to be upgraded to Vampires.

As for the original question: Order is probably the most beneficial, due to the Social Order Civic providing unlimited happiness and health not being an important issue when even a plains farm provides 3F/3C.

But I'd usually go with whatever religion provides the biggest diplomatic benefit.

I've had some luck with the Ashen Veil and running sacrifice the weak. This gives big cities for the vampires to feed.

Best wishes,

Breunor

empy for druids->order for pallys->AV for Eidolon+StW but you can skip order...

Won't Druids and Paladins leave you after you change?

Senethro said:

Won't Druids and Paladins leave you after you change?

Click to expand...

No, only religious heroes (Chalid, Yvain, etc.) and the high-priest units leave if you change religion.

The abandon code only checks for religion and civics, not alignment.

Pretty sweet actually

The OP's question about the Calabim's religion was one I considered myself; I don't see enough Calabim specific helpfulness to definitely choose one religion over other - except in the same way other civ's may temporarily adopt a faith for its bonus, only to discard it later. The most definite influence may be what other civ's are following and then hypocritically attending their church, although the OP's "found the religion along your favorite tech path" is great for taking advantage of their research closeness. It's just that the religon still ought to be more Calabim helpful.

I loooove using Order as the Calabim. I disagree with posters who say that no religions have good synergy with the Calabim; Order has it in spades.

1) Only the Calabim really benefit from Social Order. For other civs, it only helps a little to raise your cities from 20 pop to 30 pop. For the Calabim, it mean not only +10 xp for vamps, but +10 production in every city from the Governor's Manor. The production benefit is better than Arete, the xp benefit is better than any combination of xp-granting civics, and you're still working more tiles for a better economy.

2) Vampiric Paladins are MUCH better than Vampiric Eidolons because they can be Hasted and they can be Regenerated. Do not underestimate the usefulness of the Body spell for Vamps. Only Order can get you Pals.

3) Bless makes up for the Vampire's strength deficiency. This is more useful for Vamps than any other Priest spell, because they already have Spectre summons and so they don't need Tigers or RoF very urgently.


In fact, the only thing about Order that DOESN'T synergize well with the Calabim is Sphener (who can't be vamped, hasted, or regenerated) and his Unyielding Order spell (which eliminates production from the Governor's Manor).

You don't have to stay order though to gain the benefits from 2 and 3.

cabbagemeister said:

I loooove using Order as the Calabim. I disagree with posters who say that no religions have good synergy with the Calabim; Order has it in spades.
[...]

Click to expand...

It's almost sad that the two religions generally considered the best for Calabim seem to be the two primarily 'good' religions in the entire game. All your points are indeed very good, and I'm finding myself completely torn between Order and Empyrean.

I wish I could have both.