Steam's recently modified user agreement

I think we're all taking this a little bit seriously. I understand that it's "the principle of the thing", but every major company that distributes software or updates digitally changes their terms of use agreement constantly. Apple changes theirs every 3 days.

Steam does it ONE TIME to add a clause that covers their asses against people who might want to sue them for no good reason and everyone freaks out. Valve is a privately owned company that has always been good to its customers. Can't we give them a pass this ONE time?

I suppose the company is allowed to "sell" their product however they want (even if I don't like it). Who actually bothers me more are the customers who are convinced that the whole scheme is for THEIR benefit just because the company handed them a few trinkets and beads and shiny objects. The point of making players log in and have a Steam account is certainly not to get you fast patches or save games "in the cloud." It's to keep track of you and sell advertising.

SammyKhalifa said:

It's to keep track of you and sell advertising.

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There's advertising on Steam? News to me.

God of Kings said:

I know that Steam is not worth the hassle for me. I am of the older generation of gamers (played with the NES and the SNES when I was very young (current at the time)) (thus having no friends who use Steam) and I do not mind lugging physical copies of games. I read the terms and conditions carefully. I like to borrow, sell, and trade used games, especially if it is a game that I have already beaten or one that I got bored of after a few hours of playing. I am fundamentally opposed to most Steam games for ideological reasons. Yes, games on Steam can have deep discounts, but the Civ V Campaign Edition on the App Store (Mac only) also has deep discounts (and is 100% Steam-free). This is why I often recommend Civ V fans who loathe Steam to get a Mac and play the Campaign Edition (though I am planning to get a MacBook Pro next year).

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I am the same, being of the older generation used to buy, borrow and sell as the norm. Also, it just seems wrong that a game follows these strict, draconian rules where similar media do not (DVD music, most console games, movies, consumer goods, etc).

Also, there`s no reason why the consumer can`t be given an option. However, i find it interesting that there`s a Steam-free Mac version, I wonder why that is and no PC Steam-free version? Has the apparent popularity of Steam on the PC made Devs believe they don`t need to care about others on the PC who don`t care for it, yet they provide it free for mac users? There`s no doubt that people who don`t want Steam on the PC get drowned out and ignored. It`s a pity that as yet, i do not have the means to buy a mac or I would`ve done and bought Civ5 for that.

bcaiko said:

That's also why courts have traditionally looked at such agreements with a stricter scruitiny that contracts that you can edit and come to terms on. User agreements will hold up in courts most of the time, but there are certainly cases where the courts have declared that because a user couldn't negotiate certain terms of a contract, that that agreement was invalid.

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Yes. that`s why steam can`t get away with changing the user agreement bit by bit forever. It`s like a `friend` selling you a football for £5 with a promise you can play it anywhere, but every month he changes the rules without your agreement until you can only kick the ball once every week!

Every EULA is different, and it might be different in other country, but in Canada, EULA are NOT enforcable. Ill give two exemples:

Boxed product. If you buy any kind of electronic product in a store, lets say, gameX from Microgame, bought at a local SellersY, the contract would be between you and SellersY. The EULA you have to accept from Microgame to install the game would have no legal validity, as you already exchanged money to get the game. SellersY, not acting as a Microgame agent, is the one having a contract with you.(In Canada, ANY money exchange is a contract, even geting a haircut) If Microgame has any dispute with this process, they will have to take legal action against SellersY.

Regarding an electronic purchase, the EULA can be legal but only if those two conditions are met:

1-The EULA is available BEFORE purchase, ans must be signed(and we mean SIGNED) A *I agree* button is NOT an electronic signature under the law unless...

2-You can keep an unalterable copy with your signature on it for your own archives.(A *X* can work as a signature, as long as YOU put it there)

These two clauses render most EULAs invalid, as you can easily buy games without any kind of EULA(they usually show up when you install the game, NOT on purchase). Also, any EULA that get updated(that actually change the EULA documents on your computer) is not legal binding as you bought a product under the OLD EULA. You could accept the new EULA, but even if you refuse, they cannot prevent you from using the product, as BOTH parties must accept the new contract for it to takes effect.

Regarding the U.S.A, some states(I tried to find a list, but I could not find one) do have laws stating that EULA CAN be enforced.

Finally, regarding Steam account being made for advertisement, I think it is a great idea. I much prefer having directed ads linked to my interest than mass general ads regarding product I dont care. (Tough, since I am working in the advertisement business, I might be biased )

juxtapose519 said:

There's advertising on Steam? News to me.

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To be fair to Steam here, I believe some of the advertising can be turned off (but when I first got CiV, the popup thing suggesting that I buy a game caused crashes every single time) and the rest is only seen if you go to the store page.

However, when I click on the store page, I see 2 games advertised without having to scroll down at all, and one of those sections scrolls though several different games on it's own.

The whole front page of the Store is nothing but advertisements, but, again, being fair, you may not see more than a few if you want to look for something specific.

Just because it doesn't appear on your screen and make you watch before you continue playing does not mean it's not advertising. I don't know if Steam is paid directly for their advertising, but I am 100% sure they get more money from it in increased sales, both because they are the distributor and because they can get more games in the future by saying they can create more sales.

I suppose the company is allowed to "sell" their product however they want (even if I don't like it). Who actually bothers me more are the customers who are convinced that the whole scheme is for THEIR benefit just because the company handed them a few trinkets and beads and shiny objects. The point of making players log in and have a Steam account is certainly not to get you fast patches or save games "in the cloud." It's to keep track of you and sell advertising.

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But...but...it's good for you to have to log in because then you can't resell games and that means games will be cheaper. Remember when big name games used to cost $50? Now they only cost...well...nevermind.

im just playing civ until SimAnt 2 comes out

Rooftrellen said:

To be fair to Steam here, I believe some of the advertising can be turned off (but when I first got CiV, the popup thing suggesting that I buy a game caused crashes every single time) and the rest is only seen if you go to the store page.

However, when I click on the store page, I see 2 games advertised without having to scroll down at all, and one of those sections scrolls though several different games on it's own.

The whole front page of the Store is nothing but advertisements, but, again, being fair, you may not see more than a few if you want to look for something specific.

Just because it doesn't appear on your screen and make you watch before you continue playing does not mean it's not advertising. I don't know if Steam is paid directly for their advertising, but I am 100% sure they get more money from it in increased sales, both because they are the distributor and because they can get more games in the future by saying they can create more sales.



But...but...it's good for you to have to log in because then you can't resell games and that means games will be cheaper. Remember when big name games used to cost $50? Now they only cost...well...nevermind.

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Haha. Yeah, I like how a downloaded game has the same cost as one that a company had to replicate and warehouse and print manuals for and freight around the country and give a cut of to your local games retailer.

For the advertising, I admit that I don't really know how it works but I have to believe that Firaxis gets something in exchange for putting their product exclusively on steam. So to me as the user, every time I fire up Civ I also get to see "ads" from Steam. That's worth something to Valve, I'm sure. I don't know if Steam is paid, but I'm sure that there was something in it for Firaxis to give Valve that inside track on selling me things--even if it's not in the form of cash money but just cheap distribution. And again, companies in all sorts of industries have those sorts of agreements.

Rooftrellen said:

To be fair to Steam here, I believe some of the advertising can be turned off (but when I first got CiV, the popup thing suggesting that I buy a game caused crashes every single time) and the rest is only seen if you go to the store page.

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Yeah, those are alerts for when a new game comes out or something goes on sale. They can be disabled completely.

Rooftrellen said:

However, when I click on the store page, I see 2 games advertised without having to scroll down at all, and one of those sections scrolls though several different games on it's own.

The whole front page of the Store is nothing but advertisements, but, again, being fair, you may not see more than a few if you want to look for something specific.

Just because it doesn't appear on your screen and make you watch before you continue playing does not mean it's not advertising. I don't know if Steam is paid directly for their advertising, but I am 100% sure they get more money from it in increased sales, both because they are the distributor and because they can get more games in the future by saying they can create more sales.

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Right, but that's only on the "store" tab. You can make any of the tabs your default and never have to look at the main store page ever again.

Even then, they're not exact "advertisements" in the traditional internet sense. They're not trying to get you to shoot three ducks to win a free iPhone. They're simply advertising the different games you can purchase in there store. I like having them because they let me know when something good is coming out of is available for pre-order. As far as advertisements for 3rd party products that have nothing to do with Steam goes, there has never been a single one.

More than anything, I was confused by the "they're just using your information to sell you things" comment. None of the "ads" on Steam are user targeted. Even if they were, I wouldn't mind because I go there looking for games I might enjoy. If anything, it's a desirable feature.

Honestly, I think people just hate on Steam because they don't understand it. I'm not here to convert anyone, but sometimes it's just blind ignorance. I'm not saying they're not out to make a buck, but they're a lot better than some of the other shady companies out there... Looking at you Apple.

Rooftrellen said:

But...but...it's good for you to have to log in because then you can't resell games and that means games will be cheaper. Remember when big name games used to cost $50? Now they only cost...well...nevermind.

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I do feel the pain of those living outside of North America. I don't know what the deal is, but games on Steam have gotten MUCH cheaper for us. Some of the AAA titles are still $50 or $60 when they first come out, but within a couple of months they're half price. During the big sales, a lot of them are $5 or $10.

I really don't know what to think about the international pricing. Valve claims that it's out of their control, but who knows. All I know is that they haven't lied to me before... except about the release date of HL2:Episode 3.

juxtapose519 said:

I think we're all taking this a little bit seriously. I understand that it's "the principle of the thing", but every major company that distributes software or updates digitally changes their terms of use agreement constantly. Apple changes theirs every 3 days.

Steam does it ONE TIME to add a clause that covers their asses against people who might want to sue them for no good reason and everyone freaks out. Valve is a privately owned company that has always been good to its customers. Can't we give them a pass this ONE time?

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People weren't giving Steam a pass two years ago, so yeah, it's not gonna happen with those same people now. To me, they're just being a bit too paranoid (look at Valve's history, they're arguably the best developer/publisher in the business, period) but oh well.

Rooftrellen said:

To be fair to Steam here, I believe some of the advertising can be turned off (but when I first got CiV, the popup thing suggesting that I buy a game caused crashes every single time) and the rest is only seen if you go to the store page.

However, when I click on the store page, I see 2 games advertised without having to scroll down at all, and one of those sections scrolls though several different games on it's own.

The whole front page of the Store is nothing but advertisements, but, again, being fair, you may not see more than a few if you want to look for something specific.

Just because it doesn't appear on your screen and make you watch before you continue playing does not mean it's not advertising. I don't know if Steam is paid directly for their advertising, but I am 100% sure they get more money from it in increased sales, both because they are the distributor and because they can get more games in the future by saying they can create more sales.



But...but...it's good for you to have to log in because then you can't resell games and that means games will be cheaper. Remember when big name games used to cost $50? Now they only cost...well...nevermind.

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Play in Offline mode, disconnected from the net. That kills the adverts. I hate adverts in my face on the net just as much as I hate them on TV. I like to have an independent mind to decide what I want r need. I don`t need to have something repeated in my face until I`m brainwashed into wanting it.

It`s manipulative psychological propaganda I don`t care for and Steam overstepping the mark. They say it`s a DRM delivery platform for game, not an advertising site as well.

Socratatus, I must agree.

I do not like to be bombarded with ads for games that I have absolutely no interest in, right down to opposing them for ideological reasons.

I like to have an independent mind. Whenever I plan to purchase a game, I research as many details as possible, such as how it is distributed, what platform(s) is it for, the price, and even the average maturity of its fanbase. I do not want some company recommending me games, especially those that I oppose. I am not a sheep.

Well then, I will be mostly playing 100% offline console games (which I had been doing for two decades or so), as well as some independently produced games and open source games. When I buy a game, I want to own my copy of the game, not just the rights to play it. I want to play it for decades to come without any prior Internet access.

Why must Firaxis not give a Steam-less option for PC users who loathe Steam, but give the option to play Civ V legally without Steam to Mac users? PC users vastly outnumber Mac users, and yet, Mac users are given more choice than PC users and Macs are not cheap. I oppose Steam on my machine. I let Steam users to play Civ V with Steam. My concern is that I do not want Steam forced for PC users. PC users deserve a choice like their Mac counterparts. I really hope that the Civ V Campaign Edition be on the Windows Store when Windows 8 comes out so that PC users can finally have a legal Steam-less version of Civ V.

Socratatus said:

However, i find it interesting that there`s a Steam-free Mac version, I wonder why that is and no PC Steam-free version? Has the apparent popularity of Steam on the PC made Devs believe they don`t need to care about others on the PC who don`t care for it, yet they provide it free for mac users?

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God of Kings said:

Why must Firaxis not give a Steam-less option for PC users who loathe Steam, but give the option to play Civ V legally without Steam to Mac users? PC users vastly outnumber Mac users, and yet, Mac users are given more choice than PC users and Macs are not cheap.

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No conspiracy here.
The addition of the DRM is a decision of the distributor. For the PC it's 2K, for the Mac it's Aspyre. And why a version without Steam? Because the Mac App Store has a extrem wider audience on a Mac than Steam has on a Mac. And since the App Store has pretty tight regulations, I guess you might not be able to publish a software with Steam in it.
So it's a bussiness decision.
Best way to sell a PC game: Steam.
Best way to sell a Mac game: App Store.

God of Kings said:

Socratatus, I must agree.

I do not like to be bombarded with ads for games that I have absolutely no interest in, right down to opposing them for ideological reasons.

I like to have an independent mind. Whenever I plan to purchase a game, I research as many details as possible, such as how it is distributed, what platform(s) is it for, the price, and even the average maturity of its fanbase. I do not want some company recommending me games, especially those that I oppose. I am not a sheep.

Well then, I will be mostly playing 100% offline console games (which I had been doing for two decades or so), as well as some independently produced games and open source games. When I buy a game, I want to own my copy of the game, not just the rights to play it. I want to play it for decades to come without any prior Internet access.

Why must Firaxis not give a Steam-less option for PC users who loathe Steam, but give the option to play Civ V legally without Steam to Mac users? PC users vastly outnumber Mac users, and yet, Mac users are given more choice than PC users and Macs are not cheap. I oppose Steam on my machine. I let Steam users to play Civ V with Steam. My concern is that I do not want Steam forced for PC users. PC users deserve a choice like their Mac counterparts. I really hope that the Civ V Campaign Edition be on the Windows Store when Windows 8 comes out so that PC users can finally have a legal Steam-less version of Civ V.

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You and I are on the same wavelength. Try Gog.com, they specialised in re-releasing games completely DRM free and even some new games like the Witcher 2 and Alan Wake which are Steam and non-Steam. A pity Civ 5 was not included, but GOG have to negotiate with the Devs.

The_J said:

So it's a bussiness decision.
Best way to sell a PC game: Steam.
Best way to sell a Mac game: App Store.

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That`s a pity, then, that those who would like a non steam version were left out. I guess getting into Pcs and making my own for gaming was a wrong decision on my part. Now I need to save up and buy a mac. Marvellous.

Oh well. This is why I am getting a Mac. I know that some developers release both Steam and non-Steam versions of PC games (and the two games you listed are also available on console (I believe Xbox 360), which is also Steam-free, but have their own DRM (I primarily play on the Wii, which has no form of DRM (especially given its use of its own proprietary discs))), but not Firaxis. We all know what happened to Civ Rev, which was an attempt to create a console version of Civ. I do not want to see a console version of Civ V.

God of Kings said:

Oh well. This is why I am getting a Mac. I know that some developers release both Steam and non-Steam versions of PC games (and the two games you listed are also available on console (I believe Xbox 360), which is also Steam-free, but have their own DRM (I primarily play on the Wii, which has no form of DRM (especially given its use of its own proprietary discs))), but not Firaxis. We all know what happened to Civ Rev, which was an attempt to create a console version of Civ. I do not want to see a console version of Civ V.

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Just keep in mind that the Mac version, App Store or Steam either one, has NO built-in mod support. You have to manually modify them to use mods at all, and no support for Steam Workshop, even for the Steam version, and some mod authors cba to put up a zip version of their mod.

Mavfin said:

Just keep in mind that the Mac version, App Store or Steam either one, has NO built-in mod support. You have to manually modify them to use mods at all, and no support for Steam Workshop, even for the Steam version, and some mod authors cba to put up a zip version of their mod.

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I'm wondering more about how people that are against Steam on principle are talking about supporting Apple.

In reading over the Steam agreement again a few days ago, I didn't see anywhere that said they could change the terms without notifying you. In fact, I saw they must notify you and any change takes effect a full 30 days after.

In reading one of the several Apple agreements, it states that any changes to the terms will be put on their website and if you continue using the service after a change is posted on that site, you are held to it. It mentions nothing about warning you OR a grace period. For what it's worth, it's about application based services.

If it's just about the changing of terms, Apple is even worse than Steam. Of course, there are others things in both you could think is bad (or good), but with the simple changing of terms, at least with Steam you do have to be notified 30 days before a change takes effect.

"Valve may amend this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) at any time in its sole discretion. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after your receiving notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/."

Just after this it also states that if you do not CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT within that 30 days, you accept the new terms, meaning offline mode DOES NOT AVOID such a change in terms, just so we all know that going offline doesn't protect you from the changes.

Mavfin said:

Just keep in mind that the Mac version, App Store or Steam either one, has NO built-in mod support. You have to manually modify them to use mods at all, and no support for Steam Workshop, even for the Steam version, and some mod authors cba to put up a zip version of their mod.

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And the problem is?

You forget that many of us went by for years with no Steam and had to do everything manually. It`s not hard. The freedom of no Steam is worth it.

I see an amusing disconnect here.

Steam is evil, etc. There's an App Store version of Civ5, how awesome! No Steam!

Yeah, that iTunes/App Store user agreement is sooo awesome. It's not like Apple has onerous terms, or changes them all the time...

Edit:
Should've refreshed first, since Rooftrellen bet me to it. But it's nice to see I'm not the only one.

Socratatus said:

And the problem is?

You forget that many of us went by for years with no Steam and had to do everything manually. It`s not hard. The freedom of no Steam is worth it.

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So you'd rather deal with Apple's change in terms policy than Steam's?

I use stuff from both, and I'm well aware of what they both do, so I don't have an axe to grind here. Having said that, I play my Civ V on my Win 7 partition, because while the Mac version works fine, it doesn't support all mods, and if I have to log into windows to get the mod loaded off the Steam Workshop, I might as well just play the game there.

As far as doing everything manually, I'm a server admin by trade, and I don't even run GUIs on my servers. So yeah, I know how to 'do stuff manually'.