Israel In BNW?

Here's an idea for the Ancient Israelites:

UA: Diaspora/Exodus. Settlers do not stop city from growing, and have more LOS, all cities that follow your religion grant you limited LOS around the city, OR

UA: House of David. All Great People improvements and one-use abilities (i.e. admiral healing, trade missions, etc) generate faith, and Great Prophets cost less to generate from the beginning of the game. All religion bonuses increased by 3% (i.e. +% production up to 15% now up to 18%), except Pantheon beliefs.

Maccabees (UU), with an attack bonus against units near a city formed from one of your settlers (including cities currently owned by the enemy). Maccabees have a 50% chance of spawning for free near the capital when one of your cities is taken by the enemy.

Synagogue (UB), a unique building replacing nothing, unlocked with Theology, increases faith, culture, science, and slows rival nation culture from overwhelming yours (in line with BNW ideology mechanics).

With no archaeological evidence for an exodus, a UA based on the idea would be a tad controversial. They were hardly a great and expansive ancient Kingdom either.

Well, let's go with House of David then.

They don't need to be great or expansive to be included in Civ V, in my opinion. Being culturally and historically important is enough, as Korea's existence in the game shows. Many other "empires" already in the game were relatively smaller regional ones (see: Iroquois, Siam, etc), not massive ones like the Mongolian Empire for example.

Eagle Pursuit said:

I'm rather surprised about how close this poll is.

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In what direction did you expect it to be?

Kwami said:

Eh, forget about "controversy". Who's going to be mad? Some extremists? I guess that the Palestinians might be upset, but I suspect that Firaxis isn't too worried about sales numbers there anyway.

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Well, it would be the entire Arab world to worry about, not just Gaza and the West Bank. The governments could ban sale of the game too.

That said, why Israel? Why would a civilization called Israel (or Hebrews or Judea) be better than the Jerusalem city-state that we already have?

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Personally, I think they're a quite logical city-state, especially because religious city-states are hard to come by. However, in cultural influence, they're undeniably important. I also think their modern military is extremely noteworthy given their size.

I don't think this thread should turn into an ideas thread, but one idea for a UA I saw previously that I thought was pretty good was "diaspora," which had faith spread at a further range and gave gold and LoS in any city that had at least 20% of your religion in it. However, I quite like JanghanHong's idea.

Stonecutter9 said:

I must say I disagree with the idea of Israel as a civ, they had an immense cultural impact but I think that throughout history they lacked temporal power and they were mostly pushed around by anyone nearby.

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...like the entire history of Poland?

Nice ideas, Morningcalm.

I had some ideas for Israel that I posted over in the Ideas & Suggestions thread that way too few people participate in these days.

With ideas for new civ's, I think the most hard-and-fast rule to remember is that, based on the imperical evidence of what's currently in the game, there are no hard-and-fast rules. You can represent multiple cultures from the same geography but different time periods, and you can have a single civ that spans vast eras. It's less important to try to superimpose a rigid framework than it is to have a final product that's satisfying.

A good example of the latter case is Ethiopia. You have a UB that's as old as you can get (literally, in game terms) that evokes the ancient kingdom Axum, and it can be mixed with a modern leader and UU. The UA acts as kind of a bridge for that span of time.

Taking a similar approach with Israel, the ancient and modern eras can be bridged.

ISRAEL

Leader: Solomon
Capital: Jerusalem
Terrain Bias: Desert & Hills
UA: The Promised Land. Each national wonder grants the capital a +5% bonus to science, culture, faith, gold, city strength, and +2 happiness.
UB: Synagogue. Replaces Temple. +2 faith, +1 culture, +1 science.
UU: IAI Kfir. Replaces Fighter. Gains +20% combat strength bonus against land units.

Why national wonders? Well, they are geared towards a small/tall civ, and they reflect a nation's resolve and solidarity. Looking at Israel, we have a fairly prima facie case for a National and Heroic Epic, a Grand Temple (the Three Temples and the Holy Temple at the Temple Mount), and a National Intelligence Agency (the Mossad). The Synagogue has a secondary purpose of making the Grand Temple a very attractive option.

Some other half-formed ideas:

UB: Iron Dome. Replaces Bomb Shelter. As Bomb Shelter, and adds +200% defense against siege units (effectively negating the devastating power of rocket artillery).
UB: Solar Flower Tower. Replaces Solar Plant. As Solar Plant, and sources of wheat also produce +1 .
UU: Maccabee. Replaces spearman. Has +10% combat strength when near a city that has at least 1 follower of your religion. OR, +20% combat strength if there are more enemy units within three tiles than friendly units. (thanks to Morningcalm for turning me on to this UU).

Israel has some other notable aircraft too. The Nesher (which in game terms would have an increased operational range) and the Mirage (which is an interceptor).

Every time I look at someone else's new civ suggestions, I always find them too long.

Louis XXIV said:

Well, it would be the entire Arab world to worry about, not just Gaza and the West Bank. The governments could ban sale of the game too.

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Most of the Arab world has accepted Israel. Those that haven't tend to ban lots of stuff anyway. Unless Firaxis went out of their way to upset people, I'm sure that all would be OK.

Personally, I think they're a quite logical city-state, especially because religious city-states are hard to come by. However, in cultural influence, they're undeniably important. I also think their modern military is extremely noteworthy given their size.

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I just don't see it. Jerusalem is the perfect city-state. It's historically significant, frequently fought over, always influential, and has a distinctive culture. Israel, on the other hand, isn't really all that impressive.

JanghanHong said:

Every time I look at someone else's new civ suggestions, I always find them too long.

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In terms of the actual content (musings notwithstanding), mine is about as long as yours. Which I just noticed, btw. Nice ideas there as well. Good strategy behind the design.

steveg700 said:

In terms of the actual content (musings notwithstanding), mine is about as long as yours. Which I just noticed, btw. Nice ideas there as well. Good strategy behind the design.

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Oh, I'm more worried about the UA, it needs to fit in the two lines that they have for the select screen. Atilla's UA explanation is just about the max you can fit in there without looking like Yugioh cards.


This was also for general trend in speculative UA rather than yours specifically.

Ah, okay.

One thing about the official stuff is that their UA descriptions can get away with being a bit terse. Look at Spain:

Gold bonus for discovering a Natural Wonder (bonus enhanced if first to discover it). Culture, Happiness, and tile yields from Natural Wonders doubled.

It's lacking specific details about yields for discovery. We couldn't get away with that here.

And the old description for the Ottoman ability generated many inquiring posts here. It just said something vague like "chance to convert barbarian ships when near".

Kwami said:

Most of the Arab world has accepted Israel. Those that haven't tend to ban lots of stuff anyway. Unless Firaxis went out of their way to upset people, I'm sure that all would be OK.

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Well, it's been suggested as a reason Israel hasn't been included before. It's also reflected in some other design choices. Civ3: PTW was originally going to have Muhammad as the Arab leader. Obviously, that would have been a bad idea. They used Abu Bakr, which is still considered less than ideal. Since then, they've steered clear completely (using a Kurd in Civ4, fwiw).

I'm not saying it's exclusively the reason, but I do think when they weigh relative importance, it could be a factor pushing against inclusion.

Haroun Al-Rashid was a good, solid choice for the Caliphate, I'm wondering why they ended up with Haroun after so many civ versions.

If Isreal were in the game, I'd want it Sanitized from the Modern nation.

Something like
Israel
Leader - David
UA - Prophet's Call - Great Prophets are 50% cheaper, 50% more effective.
UU - Ark of the Covenant - Replaces Great General, Causes 25 damage to each enemy unit it is adjacent to at the end of its turn in addition to the bonuses of the Great General.
UB - Synagogue - Replaces Temple - +10 Religious Pressure in addition to the bonuses of the Temple

In the other thread in the main forum I put down a massive list of possible UA's, including
Temple of David: Each religious building provides 1 faith, 1 culture and 1 gold to the capital

or in the spirit of Dido and her elephants;
Split the Sea: Units can enter and exit the ocean without movement penalty and attack without penalty from the sea against land units while there is a great prophet on the map
or
Exodius - If you are defeated in the ancient or classical era, you will return in the modern era
or more seriously,
Divine Inspiration - All units gain a 20% combat bonus while there is a great prophet on the map. That one might make a good belief actually... Maybe make an extra 20% combat bonus while fighting near your holy city or in the vicinity of a holy place (settled prophets).

I believe that if Israel is to enter into CiV (which I am wholeheartedly biased for), that the Diaspora should be included somehow into them, with their UA probably being the best likely means for this.The Diaspora, no matter how you frame the civ, Hebrews, Israel, Ancient Israel, Modern Israel, Palestine, Judea, etc. is the most important singular cultural event to effect it. It is the event that has shaped the entire future (or end depending on how you see, the end) of the civilization, and as such I find it a little bit silly that Israel could appear in CiV without it.

I like the idea of Great Prophets giving Israelites a combat bonus (though I would prefer if it was a defensive combat bonus, i.e. around cities you settled).

I would really love to see Israel in the game, and they are worthy. The controversy would be removed if we just represented ancient Israelites, and had them led by David or Solomon, leaders revered in the Koran, Bible and the Torah alike. Israel as an ancient nation did exist, and even if it was not a large empire, it did defeat numerous surrounding tribes and nations at the time. Not to mention Solomon had significant dealings with the Phoenicians for their famous lumber.

Sophocles said:

I believe that if Israel is to enter into CiV (which I am wholeheartedly biased for), that the Diaspora should be included somehow into them, with their UA probably being the best likely means for this.The Diaspora, no matter how you frame the civ, Hebrews, Israel, Ancient Israel, Modern Israel, Palestine, Judea, etc. is the most important singular cultural event to effect it. It is the event that has shaped the entire future (or end depending on how you see, the end) of the civilization, and as such I find it a little bit silly that Israel could appear in CiV without it.

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But the diaspora is contingent on other civilizations doing certain things to you that might not happen in the course of a game--that you might very well try to prevent from happening. So, what are you going for here?

steveg700 said:

But the diaspora is contingent on other civilizations doing certain things to you that might not happen in the course of a game--that you might very well try to prevent from happening. So, what are you going for here?

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The Diaspora doesn't have to necessarily have to be derived from other civs doing things to Israel. It was far more then simply other nations forcing Jews to leave Israel and their spreading out over the world. The event was also a cultural one, as can be attested to by the integration of Jews into so many other places, not merely as residing Jews but as Jewish citizens.

For example, in an Israeli civ the Diaspora could be represented by their UA increasing religious pressure or, with the changes to culture in BNW, increasing cultural pressure. Some additional examples could include a UA that allowed your units to serve as mini religious/cultural pressure generators, cities that you capture loss less pop., or every time you find a new city a citizen from your capital leaves to that city (which as I type it sounds like an incredibly intriguing and unique ability).

Of course, if you want a more accurate representation of the Diaspora in an Israel civ, secondary effects which stem from the actions of other civs are welcome (such as boosts to cultural or faith when cities are captured or a free unit is granted, for examples), but my main point is that you don't need to have other civs to have an effective and standalone Diaspora.

Behold, the most offensive UA suggestion I think I made.

This is on top of the UA I already suggested.




This would actually be sort of a "Nuclear option" for an Israeli player, a warmonger wouldn't normally be able to take that much unhappiness, especially if their cities are near Israel's holy city.


It doesn't prevent all the other Israeli cities from being taken by the aggressor though, which to me, is a flavor bonus because I sort of want to stare down at other players in MP with my OCC Israel and go "Think about this very carefully..."