Games not broken on release?

I have trouble describing Colonization2 as broken. Any issues are really poorly scaled difficulty levels. I'm finding it fun on quick and easy settings.

The real issue with that game, I think is the paradox that it's a builder game where you have to seriously restrain your inner sandbox builder, in order to have a shot at jumping through the hoops of rebel spirit and a stealthy military buildup.

Ethan211 said:

I do what I can.

Jeckel, I know some games that have free servers you can get onto with a keygen [like Diablo 2] but I don't see how you would even get your account activated for something like WoW or Eve Online without shelling out for it. By rip the server do you mean like hack into it and modify their records? That would be some serious-assed piracy right there, like the kind of stuff that would make the papers.

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O no, I don't mean hacking onto a legit server. I mean like WoW, there is a pirated server that you can download, install on your personal computer, and play WoW on your LAN with just you and your buddies. Its awesome and keeps you from having to pay for a game and then pay a monthly charge to acually use the game you already payed for.

I don't support or endorce the hacking of another person's data, computers, or networks. I support the free use of products that have been legally purchased. If you buy a game you can do what you want with it, just like if you buy a car you can do what you want with any part of it and ford can't tell you how to drive, where to drive, or what other cars you can have in your driveway.

Jeckel said:

O no, I don't mean hacking onto a legit server. I mean like WoW, there is a pirated server that you can download, install on your personal computer, and play WoW on your LAN with just you and your buddies. Its awesome and keeps you from having to pay for a game and then pay a monthly charge to acually use the game you already payed for.

I don't support or endorce the hacking of another person's data, computers, or networks. I support the free use of products that have been legally purchased. If you buy a game you can do what you want with it, just like if you buy a car you can do what you want with any part of it and ford can't tell you how to drive, where to drive, or what other cars you can have in your driveway.

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That is really flawed logic. I agree thast the intellectual property system in this country needs radical changes, but assuming that once you purchase something you have NO additional responsibilities is pretty immature.

First off what about if you rent something? If I rent a car from you can I go crash it into a tree?

Because a very quick response to your position is just to claim that they are simply renting you a license to use their property, NOT selling you one. Take all the wind out of your arguments saisl with just a slight change in terminology (which is a sign it is a pretty weak analogy).

People are not going to make legal progress in reforming the system to their benefit until they quit it with the "its my party i can cry if I want to" defense. Society is built around compromise and NOT doing exactly what you want every second, it is what makes civilization possible.

Its amazing how easy it is to "win" an argument when you change the terminology...

Only problem is we arn't talking about renting anything. I rent games and movies all the time and I never do that at Walmart. We are clearly talking about purchasing a product, not renting a license.

The point I'm getting at is the PC Game Industry thinks its special and can subject its Paying Customers (<== Thats the key term here) to unusual and extreme measures.

Let Ford say I can't drive my F150 because I also have a Dodge Ram in my driveway.. but origional Civ4 would not run if I had Daemon Tools running even if my fully paid for Civ4 CD was in the drive... What buisness is it of Civ4's what other programs I have running on my hard drive.

What would people say if you went to Walmart and bought a movie on DVD and you could only watch it in 3 different DVD players and then it wouldn't play any more... Look around the forums, plenty of people are complaining of games that have this little gem imbedded in them.

I could go on with more f-ed up things the Game Industry does to its Paying Customers (.. Theres that pesky term again...), but I won't. If you can point me to one example of another product I pay for in the store and am then magical bound in the way I can use it, well, I'll be amazed. As long as you don't infringe upon the company making its money, and I already paid them their money so I'm covered on that one, you own the product and can do with it what you please. Movies, cars, food, clothes, books, furniture, tools, toys, ect. you pay for it and it is yours. Why are PC video games living under different rules?

Jeckel, I agree in principle with what you're saying about there being a fundamental conflict between intellectual property rights and customer property rights. And I do think gaming companies have crossed a line in terms of the amount of control they can reasonably have over the product we bought once it's in our hands.

However, with regards to MMOs, I have to disagree about their right to charge subscription fees. If I buy a copy of Colonization, Firaxis has been paid for services rendered. A patch may be necessary to fix bugs and restore balance, but technically, Firaxis's obligations are over at this point. The continued functioning of the game does not require any more time or effort on their part even if their continued hard work on patching will make the difference between a good game and a lousy one.

An MMO, however, is a continual work in progress. It relies on the game company to maintain the servers and employ their developers to work on new content and patches. Do you have the right to manipulate the software you bought in the package to set up your own server? I think we could have a whole separate debate about that. But by doing so, you're also taking the first M out of MMO. The idea of them is not to play on a server with your buddies but rather to play with thousands or possibly millions of people, and that's the service you're paying for.

You're not really being forced to pay twice because what you're buying at the store is the software necessary to run the service. The monthly subscription is paying for the service itself. Now, are they charging too much? That's a whole other subject. Could they take the distribution of the software entirely online and remove the initial costs of the software? Maybe.

An initial cost for the software and a monthly subscription are not the only models of course. Some companies charge per month but not to download the software. Others charge up front for the software but then have no subscription fee. But it seems to me that you're saying they don't have the right to do both... that they are some how infringing upon your property rights by charging a subscription fee for a continued service.

I have to strongly dissagree, when I was subscribed to Star Wars: Galaxies MMO, the funnest times where early in the morning when me and my pals were the only ones on the server.

I am not saying that the company doesn't have the right to run servers and charge for their use. Like you said, that subscription fee pays for the right to play with millions of other people and for the new content generated for use on that server, but your assuming that I want that new content and that I want to play with those millions of people. I don't, I just want the content I payed 50 bucks for at the store and I just want to play the game by myself or with my friends.

Me doing that in no way infringes upon their right to make money off the official server or others right to pay for and play on that server. Its equivalent to me buying a car and then only being allowed to drive that car on Ford's private roads and having to pay for that privilage to boot.

Like I said, PC video game companies don't get to apply special rules to their products and neither do MMO video game companies. A product is a product is a product, and paying for a product at a store is not the same as paying for a subscription to a service. When I subscribed to Direct TV it was very clear that I was paying for a subscription to a service and not purchasing a product.

Again I ask, why are their special rules for electronic products then for other kinds of products?

Jeckel said:

I just want the content I payed 50 bucks for at the store and I just want to play the game by myself or with my friends.
Again I ask, why are their special rules for electronic products then for other kinds of products?

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Now we're on the same page.
The whole idea of having to follow some special rules that run contrary to the way transactions in every other industry work is a lousy one, and it, to me, pretty clearly illustrates why lobbyists are the spawn of satan. Once you buy your copy of WoW, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with it short of profiting from someone else's work, end of story. The whole daemon tools thing is a good example of the measures that are being used to stop piracy getting in the way of the customer experience [I'm assuming that there are some legitimate uses for daemon tools, just like how bittorrent is used for 'linux distributions'.]

Just a side note, but something you also need to keep in mind is the quality of the games coming out. Now I don't mean all of them, but there has been (Prob will always be) /a lot/ of bad ones. This isn't to mention those ones you play for around a couple days then bam.. extra coaster.

I am not saying it is right, but who has the money to spend on all these games (And you can't trust reviews it seems, as spore for example got high marks). I mean isn't it natural for people to get the feeling of being ripped off time and time again?

I am just saying there are reasons people are doing it, and good ones that. Then as said earlier they don't just do that.. but they poke ya with the stick when your down by adding all these extra fees, or silly conditions on playing their game.

But what gets me is how they handle the issue.. The department of commerce said that 750,000 Americans are losing their jobs because of piracy, but when questioned on the fact the whole thing falls through as a lie.

Between the lies, and the more and more messed up things they do.. It is only going to get worse. I agree that there is some negative result to piracy and thats what makes it bad, but without a lack of an alternative, and the lies that are blown so far out of proportion that it is hard to even find the truth, I really can't blame them.

I guess all I ask if you pirate it, and like the game enough to keep it... Just go buy a copy. It isn't that hard, and it does support the people making the games. No harm no fowl

Edit -
I did some searching, and found some reasons why... here is the list..

The semi-political - Arguing that intellectual property is invalid, and censorship (Down with the Man! heh)

Money- Obviously for some reason they didn't have the money to buy it, or they thought $60 dollars for a new game was crazy (More in Australia)

Game Quality- As I was saying earlier about games being bad.. Apparently others pirate for that reason.

DRM- Digital rights management, refers to access control technologies used by hardware manufacturers, publishers and copyright holders to limit usage of digital media or devices. (Yea, DRM is bad.)

Digital Distribution- Easier then going to the store, and buying it (Wow... just laziness heh)

Because I can- Cause they can get stuff for free, and get away with it. (Believe it or not the smallest quantity of answers)

Jeckel said:

I have to strongly dissagree, when I was subscribed to Star Wars: Galaxies MMO, the funnest times where early in the morning when me and my pals were the only ones on the server.

I am not saying that the company doesn't have the right to run servers and charge for their use. Like you said, that subscription fee pays for the right to play with millions of other people and for the new content generated for use on that server, but your assuming that I want that new content and that I want to play with those millions of people. I don't, I just want the content I payed 50 bucks for at the store and I just want to play the game by myself or with my friends.

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It's quite simple - The software license you pay for in the shop allows you to legally use the Client software.
Setting up your own server would require a server license - something Blizzard have sensibly (from a financial perspective) never made available, allowing them to maintain a monopoly.

Me doing that in no way infringes upon their right to make money off the official server or others right to pay for and play on that server.

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You don't hold a software license for the server portion of the game code, therefore you cannot legally host a server.
Most importantly, the terms & conditions of the license which you must have accepted before installing the software state this in no uncertain terms.

Its equivalent to me buying a car and then only being allowed to drive that car on Ford's private roads and having to pay for that privilage to boot.

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What, like road tax? or insurance?
Both are legal requirements to drive a vehicle on public roads in the UK, i'm quite sure most other countries have something similar.

Like I said, PC video game companies don't get to apply special rules to their products and neither do MMO video game companies. A product is a product is a product, and paying for a product at a store is not the same as paying for a subscription to a service. When I subscribed to Direct TV it was very clear that I was paying for a subscription to a service and not purchasing a product.

Again I ask, why are their special rules for electronic products then for other kinds of products?

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The product packaging makes you fully aware of the recurring subscription fee required for access to the WoW servers; if you don't agree with it, don't buy the product.

TehJumpingJawa said:

It's quite simple - The software license you pay for in the shop allows you to legally use the Client software.
Setting up your own server would require a server license - something Blizzard have sensibly (from a financial perspective) never made available, allowing them to maintain a monopoly.

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If I was offering my server to anyone except myself and those in my house, this would matter, but since I'm not, it doesn't. And, like I said before, I didn't buy a license for anything, I bought a product in a store.

TehJumpingJawa said:

You don't hold a software license for the server portion of the game code, therefore you cannot legally host a server.
Most importantly, the terms & conditions of the license which you must have accepted before installing the software state this in no uncertain terms.

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Sorry, but if you don't sign your signiture on it, it isn't a contract. This was one of the first and biggest lies perpetrated by the gaming industry. ESRAs arn't in anyway binding legal agreements any more then the tag on your mattress is a legal binding agreement.

TehJumpingJawa said:

What, like road tax? or insurance?
Both are legal requirements to drive a vehicle on public roads in the UK, i'm quite sure most other countries have something similar.

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Last time I checked, neither insurance or road taxes are levied by the car manufacturer.

TehJumpingJawa said:

The product packaging makes you fully aware of the recurring subscription fee required for access to the WoW servers; if you don't agree with it, don't buy the product.

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I don't care what the package says, I payed for the game, it is mine, and I will do what I want with it. Same as I would with any other product I buy at the store.

Since you seemed to miss the point, the question is why Video Games have special rules that don't apply to any other product? Why do they have all these agreements and licenses and contracts for their product when no other product has found it nessesary?

Jeckel said:

I don't care what the package says, I payed for the game, it is mine, and I will do what I want with it. Same as I would with any other product I buy at the store.

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You do realize this is the attitude of a kindergartener? Society is about making rules so we can live together in comity and peace. You don't get to opt out of the rules simply because you disagree with them and get a pass.

I would really really love it if once I bought a CD I owned that license forever and could download the content whenever I wanted from a server. That would be really convenient for me. But you know what, I have not paid for that service and no one offers it.

Maturity is adjusting your behavior to others wants and needs and learning to live with compromise and cooperate. I fully support any efforts you make to change the law, but if you break it I hope you are punished.

The game industry is perfectly within its rights to make stipulations on the use of its products. You claim no other industry does this, BUT ALL intellectual property companies do BECAUSE of the type of property it is. The gaming industry is in no way exceptional in the IP field.

Could the rules be better, yes (but I think Stardock/Valve/Gamersgate are already doing a good job innovating there), but just because YOU don't think they are to your advantage doesn't mean you are right and everyone else is wrong and you can do what you want. It just makes you a small minded child.

Becephalus said:

You do realize this is the attitude of a kindergartener?

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All I did was finger-paint, and sleep, etc Not try to pirate software.

Becephalus said:

Maturity is adjusting your behavior to others wants and needs and learning to live with compromise and cooperate. I fully support any efforts you make to change the law, but if you break it I hope you are punished.

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Actually... maturity that a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner.. Note this manner doesn't have anything to do with other wants and needs. And on the hoping for punishment.. An Eye for an Eye will leave the world blind.. Sometimes you need to learn forgiveness

Becephalus said:

You do realize this is the attitude of a kindergartener? Society is about making rules so we can live together in comity and peace. You don't get to opt out of the rules simply because you disagree with them and get a pass.

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Great, well then I'm making a rule that anyone can only read my posts 3 times and you can't combine my posts with anyone elses because I'm not offering any licenses to use my posts with other posts. O and if you want read my posts at all you have to pay me a mothly service charge of 15 dollars.

O wait, thats right, there is an excepted way that forums work and I can't just make up my own special rules on how my posts work inside of that excepted system.

Becephalus said:

I would really really love it if once I bought a CD I owned that license forever and could download the content whenever I wanted from a server. That would be really convenient for me. But you know what, I have not paid for that service and no one offers it.

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Don't know what this has to do with anything. If you bought the CD then what does downloading anything have to do with that CD.

Becephalus said:

Maturity is adjusting your behavior to others wants and needs and learning to live with compromise and cooperate. I fully support any efforts you make to change the law, but if you break it I hope you are punished.

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Don't worry about me, I know the law, and as my whole point has been, the stuff the Game Industry is doing isn't legal or supported by any law. They make these "rules" because people like you think anything they say is some kind of binding legal agreement, but you can't just make up whatever rules you want. The same laws that apply to movies, books, clothes, food, furniture, ect, apply to Video Games and they don't get to make up their own rules.

Becephalus said:

The game industry is perfectly within its rights to make stipulations on the use of its products. You claim no other industry does this, BUT ALL intellectual property companies do BECAUSE of the type of property it is. The gaming industry is in no way exceptional in the IP field.

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Umm, no they aren't. Could you point me to the law that allows the Game Compainies to add these stipulations?

Becephalus said:

Could the rules be better, yes (but I think Stardock/Valve/Gamersgate are already doing a good job innovating there), but just because YOU don't think they are to your advantage doesn't mean you are right and everyone else is wrong and you can do what you want. It just makes you a small minded child.

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No, what makes a "small minded child" is calling people names instead of posting counter arguments.

Maturity is adjusting your behavior to others wants and needs and learning to live with compromise and cooperate. I fully support any efforts you make to change the law, but if you break it I hope you are punished.

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There's something you need to remember when making claims based on law. They're different for everyone.

For instance, I live in Australia and the following is true for me:
1. I can download and burn anyone's file legally.
2. But I cannot sell that person's file for profit.
3. I can legally upload files to the internet.
4. And I can legally rip copyrighted content onto other media.
5. But I cannot alter that copyrighted content in any way.

Thus, in Australia it is legal to download and use content off the the internet, but I cannot sell or do any altering to copyrighted content.

IE: As long as someone ELSE does that I can legally download it and use it.

Becephalus said:

Society is about making rules so we can live together in comity and peace.

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But it's not, or at least a just society shouldn't be, about unilaterally forcing self-serving rules on others and seeking to punish them for not doing what you say.
If Jeckel is a kindergartener, the IP crusaders are Fascists; unless some of us had some really, really traumatic experiences at the age of 5, I think we all look back with more nostalgia on the days of kingergarten than on 1930's/1940's Germany.

Just my $0.02

Becephalus said:

Society is about making rules so we can live together in comity and peace.

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BTW, what you described there is a police state. The forcing of laws on common people to ensure "peace and harmony". I heard that Germany in the late 30's and early 40's was big on this.

Society isn't able making rules, but a group sharing common aims, goals or interests. It isn't society that makes the rules, it's the rules that make societies.

I've read the whole thread and would like to say a few things:

First of all this thread have gone way off track but on the topic of piracy I would like to remind you guys of a few things:

Intellectual Property is far from new. The fight for or against is is also as old as the copy mechanism that made it infringement possible. I know the first company that made audio tapes faced huge lawsuits but the right of copying for personal use won giving birth to VCR and audiotape recorder to, by proxy, CD-R and DVD-R (or +R or RAM or whatever).

Also the movies you buy, the music you buy... none of it actually belong to you. To actually be free to use a product as you see fit (within the laws of course), you must purchase all the rights to it like when you buy a car or a towel or even a house. When you buy a software, a movie or music, you buy a license for it use. The fact is the copyright holder is still the owner of software, movie or music (Which I will resume as IPW for Intellectual Property Work).

If you were actually buying a game, the same way you buy a car for example, the CH (Copyright Holder) would have to transfer to you the source code and allow you to modify or otherwise do whatever you want with the game in question. This is not the case here.

You buy a license for the IPW, it container is in fact just a bonus that is included with the purchase of the IPW's license. You pay for the right to watch the movie, not the movie itself, you pay for the right to play the game, not the game itself. You agree to play by those rules by paying for the product license. You sign by doing that. This is, in fact, a legally enforced contract. That contract is called the law. Of course the actual terms of the contract changes with the times or the location, but it is still a contract.

By law I mean the IP laws of your country. This is the basic contract that is applied every time you buy an IPW license. You may say that you don't agree with the contract, that you never agreed with the contract but that contract is part of the "Social contract" (i.e.: Law of the land) that you abide to when you live in a country.

Still don't like it? There's a few options:
1.: Change the laws, use what means are availiable to you the change the contract as you (and others) see fit.
2.: Leave the country for another whose laws fit your fancy.
3.: Ignore the laws but face the consequences.

That's it.

Next time you play your Xbox or your Wii or you PS3, remember: You own the hardware, but they (the CH) the software that makes it run and I don't mean just the game, but the software in your console that allow it to boot in the first place. Same is true for PCs, you own the hardware, they own the software (From the game to the OS to the BIOS). Only exception here is open software where the license is much more loose.

The current debate about IPs right now (at least in North America), is not about owning the IPs but about the terms of the basic IP contract, about what it allows, what it does not and about what it should or shouldn't.

All of this being said, piracy IS illegal, whether it is actually damaging the companies, to what extend and whether it is actually wrong to pirate is another matter entirely.

P.S.: Books are the same thing. Art is the same thing.

P.P.S.: Any EULA you see when installing a game is a contract over a contract. I.e.: The laws still applies, but the EULA contract applies over them and are overrides meaning that in case where they disagree, the EULA has predominance. Also you DO sign that contract by clicking the "I Agree" button and actually installing the game. If you don't you can't install the game and should return it.

Dale said:

BTW, what you described there is a police state. The forcing of laws on common people to ensure "peace and harmony". I heard that Germany in the late 30's and early 40's was big on this.

Society isn't able making rules, but a group sharing common aims, goals or interests. It isn't society that makes the rules, it's the rules that make societies.

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The forcing of laws are what makes society works. Without them, anybody could kill you, just because they felt like it.

A Police State, a true one, is when ALL you do is regularized, (Think "The Island" but even worse.) which is far far far from what any human has ever seen.

Anarchy and Police State are both unattainable ideology because they are the absolute perfection of what they strive for with Anarchy the absolute of freedom and Police State the absolute of repression.

That being said, Nazi Germany was a terrible government but an absolute police state? Far from it. The Assyrians had quite a lot of liberties left.

Laws are like squares, in theory that is, you can't cross the boundaries, but you are free to do as you please within them.

The laws are not "forced" upon us... well they are, but that's what democracy is supposed to address, law made by the people, for the people... guess we lost our way since then.

I think everyone here understands how the system works, what we're saying is that some elements of it are unjustly forced upon us by those those who are more powerful.

Ethan211 said:

I think everyone here understands how the system works, what we're saying is that some elements of it are unjustly forced upon us by those those who are more powerful.

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That might be true for you but other like Jeckel for exemple don't seem to understand the concept when he talk about doing whatever he please with his games.

They are not HIS in the first place.