SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

NICE!!!

We have options and lots of them!

IMO, the PPP for the balance of this set needs to focus on getting WB#1 & WB#2 built ASAP so we can work our best tiles ASAP.

I am going to also start working on an option to get us to settle OFF the island ASAP. This will move Sailing back up the research order. If we get up cities providing Marble and Stone early, it totally changes how we can go about our expansion and wonder plans.
 
Lions and tigers and bears OH MY!

I was slightly concerned that we were pinning so many hopes on grabbing so many wonders. But after seeing the stone AND marble I am less so.

I am really keen on sending one of the early WBs closer to the Marble tile, to see if a city with decent food could claim it. How would fitting Masonry into the tech order work out for the Oracle build?
 
We could settle ON the marble and feed it with a clam at least.

I think we need to plan settle to claim the stone before borderpops get it, else we may find some AI grabs it.

Are we still settling 3E and building Oracle there, or does the first settler go for the marble, and we build Oracle in Chowdah? Let's not forget that the AI may have been similarly blessed with Marble and Stone in the real game, so perhaps our test save expectations are too long (what AI access to quarry resources does the test have?)

Maybe we still build 3E first, then go get the marble, and Oracle at 3E (Hillsville?) anyway?

dV
 
We definitely have to test out a few more ideas for the Oracle, like settling on the Marble.

But I suspect that it will be hard to beat the dates mabraham has gotten with the 2nd city 3E.

We might also want to reconsider what to take with the Oracle, as we probably could now build the pyramids with multiple overflows from settler whips faster than we could do it with a GE if we grab the stone early.
 
I'm having a look through the demographics.

Easiest thing first: There are NO Charismatic leaders. All have 5:), 1:mad:
This rules out Boudica, Cyrus, Churchill, Lincoln and Washington... not much help really since we're already assuming late 18th/early 19th century Europeans.

There is one Creative leader who does not have GLH. Owner of GLH we don't know, their borders were going to pop after 2 turns regardless. Edit: Check again at around turn 16, then we will know for sure. Creative GLH owner will get second border pop on turn 15, Non-creative on turn 19.

4/6 AI grew to size 2 after 11 turns, ie, this many AI were working a 3:food: tile.

Nobody increased power rating from anything other than population increase. So nobody teched mining or hunting.

On turn 2, one of the AIs GNP changed from 18 to 16. It wasn't the GLH owner. I find it unlikely they would change research path. It happened too early for any of their available tiles to have changed.... so I really have no idea what might cause this.
 
On turn 2, one of the AIs GNP changed from 18 to 16. It wasn't the GLH owner. I find it unlikely they would change research path. It happened too early for any of their available tiles to have changed.... so I really have no idea what might cause this.

If it were the GLH owner then they could be switching tiles after their border pop, but you say it isn't them.

I don't know if AIs electively switch tiles, but it's hard to see why they'd have worked something for two commerce one turn, and then (presumably) not for the next 9 unless they were maximizing :commerce: while building something else, perhaps enhanced by their trait (e.g. Expansive worker, Aggressive barracks).

Otherwise, we need a tile-related perturbation of an AI strategy. There are no events or quests. They can't have a mine for precious metals to pop (and that'd send it up, anyway!). They can't have a barbarian invasion yet. They can't have improved/unimproved a tile. All I can think of is a forest/jungle growth.

A forest growth made some tile more attractive than the :commerce: tile. I can't think of a tile producing 2:commerce: onto which a forest could grow that would not then be more attractive to work, i.e. if it was a forest, I think the AI chose to work the forest-growth tile, rather than choosing to switch away from the tile onto which the forest grew. This might make sense if the growth created an AI's only 3:hammers: tile while building an Expansive worker (say). Various alternative scenarios exist.

Alternatively, a jungle growth onto gems or elephants (if that is possible) would hack off a food and an AI might switch away. This would be a bit weird though, because normal map scripts have no jungle near starting locations.

Anyway, it is hard to see it affecting us.
 
We definitely have to test out a few more ideas for the Oracle, like settling on the Marble.

But I suspect that it will be hard to beat the dates mabraham has gotten with the 2nd city 3E.

We might also want to reconsider what to take with the Oracle, as we probably could now build the pyramids with multiple overflows from settler whips faster than we could do it with a GE if we grab the stone early.
The beauty of settling on the marble is we don't have to wait for the quarry and the road. So I guess the question is whether we can get settler #2 in time to be useful. Maybe yes if we don't do granary in Chowdah? Or is that granary key to getting all the other whipped stuff we need?

dV
 
If it were the GLH owner then they could be switching tiles after their border pop, but you say it isn't them.
Not GLH owner, because they are the leader in GNP.
Otherwise, we need a tile-related perturbation of an AI strategy. There are no events or quests. They can't have a mine for precious metals to pop (and that'd send it up, anyway!). They can't have a barbarian invasion yet. They can't have improved/unimproved a tile. All I can think of is a forest/jungle growth.
Yeah, I'm going to go with forest growth. Perhaps beforehand they were working a seafood resource.
Anyway, it is hard to see it affecting us.
Quite correct! In the same way you guys play test games for nothing better to do, I try to work out AI micromanagement :lol:
 
Not GLH owner, because they are the leader in GNP.

... and are still on 24. Gotcha.

Yeah, I'm going to go with forest growth. Perhaps beforehand they were working a seafood resource. Quite correct! In the same way you guys play test games for nothing better to do, I try to work out AI micromanagement :lol:

We think we have a non-Financial leader who switched from a tile with 2:commerce: onto one on which a forest grew. :crazyeye: How many turns is that worth for an Oracle-target estimate :p
 
Here is a new test game....I think it's right, but please make changes where needed. Just realized I didn't rename it....oh well, you shouldn't mix it with the real save now!:p
 
I just made and advanced a test game out to turn 10 before I saw ron's post.

I think it is right but let me know.
 

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Here is a new test game....I think it's right, but please make changes where needed. Just realized I didn't rename it....oh well, you shouldn't mix it with the real save now!:p
I made the following changes to R1's NEW TEST Map after comparing it with the screen shot from mab's Turn 10 post...
  1. Changed tile 2 NW+1W to Plains Forest from Grass Forest
  2. added Grass Hill 1S of Stone
  3. changed tile 1NE+1E of Stone to Ocean
  4. changed the 2 tiles north of the one listed above to Desert
Oh, also renamed the file, since I didn't see Shaka anywhere :mischief:

Feel free to double check my changes. It was proven in the last SG that my mapmaker eyesight is sometimes faulty. :scan:
 
My test game has an error...the FPH is grass and needs to be changed to plains.

EDIT:....more errors apparently than I saw....use at your own discretion.

EDIT 2: I took dV's and added some TEST GAME flags. Had to repost the save because the FGH did not get changed and saved the first time. It should be correct as of 7:50PM Pacific Time.
 
I just made and advanced a test game out to turn 10 before I saw ron's post.

I think it is right but let me know.
The only thing I notice when comparing this map with the Turn 10 screen shot from actual game is that in the screen shot, the tile 3E of the Crab is open ocean (i.e., it has no food or commerce showing), but this test game does show 1F/1C in that tile. Probably same in all other test maps based on my original test game. Now sure if it's worth changing at this point, as there will be more changes to be made later after the next turn set update. And we'll be testing expanding toward the Marble & Stone, so we're not too concerned with the far NE at this point.

@bc - nice job playing it out for the first 10 turns, looks right on! :goodjob:
 
MM thoughts

Food is normally king, but hammers that increase food later can be better. So I mapped out 50 turns of the game assuming 2-3WB and fast settler (1 turn revolt from BW about T40). I have considered 2-3WB then another :hammers: unit in the analysis.

Executive summary
  • Maximise use of netted clam tiles
  • Manage :hammers: output to get each new WB ASAP given the above (i.e. do not grow first, then work nets, PFH and a non-net)
  • Minimize overflows that will not be immediately useful (e.g. into :food: box just before we build a settler) if you can get useful things instead (like :hammers: overflowed onto that settler).
  • Be prepared to juggle between corn, PFH and GF if that will speed a growth or a build leading to a growth. A turn not working a net that leads to finishing a WB a turn faster to work a compensating extra turn on the new net can even be useful.

Gory details

T0-10 we work 3 corn to grow to size 2. This has put 1:hammers: on the WB. Then four plans come to mind:

A) T11 we work PFH+GF to get WB in 9 turns, switch GF to nets to get WB in 11 turns (no overflow). If we then go for a fast settler, we'll start a third WB, and switch to settler at size 4. This can be whipped T47.

B) T11 we work PFH+(1GF 10corn) to get WB in 11 turns, switch corn to nets to get WB in 11 turns (no overflow). If we then go for a fast settler, we'll start a third WB, and switch to settler at size 4. This can be whipped T48.

C) As for A, but if we then go for a third WB, we'll work two nets at size 2, then two nets+PFH, then one turn of nets+PFH+2GF, then start settler with one turn of 2 nets+PFH+GF, then three nets+something (gives up a turn on a net to get WB a turn earlier and thus another net turn back, plus earlier start on settler). Settler whippable T51 (on the nose).

D) As for A, but if we then go for a third WB, we'll work two nets at size 2, then two nets+corn, then two nets+PFH+GF. Assuming settler next, we mostly work three nets+something, whippable T54.

I spreadsheeted these to see total production (have done a fair amount of comparison with the game for verification of the spreadsheet). Numbers are total :food: (i.e. including that which we ate, but not :food: building a settler) / total :hammers: (including :food: building a settler, but ignoring whether we've whipped or not) / total raw :commerce: (including palace). These metrics are invariant over whether we work PFH or unimproved corn when building a settler (for example).
Code:
  T22         T33         T48         Settler whippable?
A 103/ 64/202 177/102/327 316/180/509 T47
B 109/ 56/198 175/100/319 319/170/501 T48
C 103/ 64/202 177/102/327 311/174/511 T51
D 103/ 64/202 177/102/327 348/148/509 T54 (third WB in place T48 but not planted)

A and B have the expected early behaviour (A has :hammers:, B has :food:) but by T33 A has made up the :food: deficit and moved ahead in :commerce: too. That's from earlier working of both the first and second net. That converts into earlier access to a settler with less food stored in the box, still with the same :commerce: lead. So that makes A look better than B, to me. If the third build is a :hammers: unit then A will still be ahead.

The third net doesn't come online until T46/49 for C/D, respectively. The third net does 5 turns work for each settler. Then, they're not good for anything post-whip until city-3E is up (i.e. T54/T57 respectively). Then they're great by comparison with A, so long as city-3E can still get (or does not need to get) the Oracle.

One consideration is that the very fast settler in A is in some danger of arriving before we get Pottery. In fact, during the settler, you need to switch off some other tile and work the unimproved clams to get enough :commerce:. Four turns of that mid-settler is enough to be sure of Pottery and no delay on the whip. Call this plan A'. Its T48 stats are 316/175/519, since we're shuffling 5:hammers: into 10:commerce:. This makes sure the first :hammers: in Fish Hills go onto a granary, which might be critically important for an Oracle.

The comparison gets very messy once we whip, of course.

Did I miss any options back in the T10-30 window?
 
Did I miss any options back in the T10-30 window?
I don't think you missed any GREAT options, only inferior ones from what I tested....

but...
One consideration is that the very fast settler in A is in some danger of arriving before we get Pottery.
In my testing I ran into this also. The solution I liked was to NOT whip the settler ASAP, but whip it for MAX hammers. It arrives on site when Pottery is finished AND WB#3 is ready to net the 3rd Clam. So when City2 is founded, all 3 nets are worked immediately.

An alternative is to whip on T48, the settler arrives on time with Pottery, but the 3rd net is still a ways off. There is no need to change tile use off the 2*net+corn+FPH in this option.
 
I made the following changes... changed tile 1NE+1E of Stone to Ocean

I haven't looked, but presumably you meant "1NW+1W of stone to ocean"

The only thing I notice when comparing this map with the Turn 10 screen shot from actual game is that in the screen shot, the tile 3E of the Crab is open ocean (i.e., it has no food or commerce showing), but this test game does show 1F/1C in that tile. Probably same in all other test maps based on my original test game. Now sure if it's worth changing at this point, as there will be more changes to be made later after the next turn set update. And we'll be testing expanding toward the Marble & Stone, so we're not too concerned with the far NE at this point.

I switched on the tile yield display for the screenshots. The display it produces does not seem to depend on current visibility (tested in an test game). I did some WorldBuilder testing, and it seems that the display of yields for sea tiles that can be worked from some land tile is independent of whether you know about that land tile. Nor does it matter if that land tile is a 1-square mountain. :lol:

So if that deduction is true, then we know there is not much close land in the NE fog.
 
I haven't looked, but presumably you meant "1NW+1W of stone to ocean"
No, 1NW+1W of Stone is same as 2SE of Capitol (isn't it?) which was already ocean. The tile I changed is still in the fog, but for what little we can see of the edges of that tile, it appears to me to be ocean. Same with 1S of the Stone, its in the fog, but appears to be grass hill (or could be flat grass). Expert fog gazers are encouraged to double check all of this!

I switched on the tile yield display for the screenshots. The display it produces does not seem to depend on current visibility (tested in an test game). I did some WorldBuilder testing, and it seems that the display of yields for sea tiles that can be worked from some land tile is independent of whether you know about that land tile. Nor does it matter if that land tile is a 1-square mountain. :lol:

So if that deduction is true, then we know there is not much close land in the NE fog.
Agree, and believe the deduction is correct. One of my Geezers teammates from the SGOTM 10 game pointed out that you could use the Yield display in this manner to determine the location of land which was concealed by the fog.
 
So I am playing out my latest test game and I decide to check the state of the world at T90. Only Isabella has even researched Priesthood, she has not started Oracle, and even though she had the opportunity to get Marble, she settled 1 tile too far away. Joao & Louis are building Stonehenge at this time.

I am not sure if we should draw ANY conclusions at this point based on these findings. I put stone and marble within 1-2 cities range of all the AI to see if they would settle near those resources, maybe that is too far away. I am going to start over and put those resources closer to all AI to see if they alter their tech paths and build orders.

Obviously I guessed at which AI were in the game based on our discussions and I gave mabs idea of adding in Louis a great deal of weight. For those that haven't looked at that test game...

The AI are Louis(only Creative)/Peter/Victoria/Bismarck/JoaoII/Isabella
 
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