[Religion and Revolution]: Bugs and Todos

Yeah this is what I understand it to be aswell. I can to this I think. But I would need the correct versions of nation names in french,german, spanish and italian. I am not sure Google Translate is gonna be correct...

As I said, we better wait until after TAC 2.03. :dunno:

Eventually it is also better if we do split this work then by Native speakers:

ray -> German
Robert -> French
colonialfan -> English

Spanish ? (Probably simply use English texts first.)
Italian ? (Probably simply use English texts first.)

I suggest we ignore Texts for now. :)
 
Play Testing Rapport of Revolution and Religion by Gomer_Pyle - Last Update: 28th December

Difficulty: Explorer
Map type: A New World
Map size: Giant (78x122)
Nation: France/Samuel de Champlain
Style: Slow Builder/Fast Explorer/Peaceful Defender

Is AI too aggressive or too passive?
Passiveness: The European AI is passive with military in beginning of the game. The European AI is very aggressive at building settlements and Natives are very forgiving towards the European AI. They seriously cannot be buying the land? And they are expanding more than their army/defence policy should allow them. This is cheating too heavily on explorer difficulty I think. Another thing is culture. Year 1590 first city of 4 of Europeans have about 200 in culture and one of them got 450 in culture. Seems to be always the case that one European AI is better at Culture/Bell production than others? And this seems to be related to nation not having other European nations close by.

Aggressiveness: In my game Apache had been pushed around by Portugal for first 100 years and after 100 years they attacked Portugal. If this had been me then it would happen much before even on Explorer difficulty. Later Aztec attacked England they seemed to steam roll the English in the beginning of the war and England lost a few settlements. And once they are in peace again European AI does not seem able to rebuild properly everywhere. I have seen lots of settlements without farms after war. Maybe AI does not prioritise Pioneers? Overall I feel that I can play safe and be friendly with everyone at the same time. The Europeans hardly ever make war on each other? The English demanded 1100 gold from me which I refused. Nothing happened? They are still pleased and I got -1 in relations because I refused to help them. They should be more aggressive after a refusal like this even on Explorer difficulty.

Is AI offering too many Defensive Pacts?
Natives seem to be offering Defensive Pacts rarely in the beginning. But it seems that it is the same nations over and over again offering them. Cherokee/Tupi? It seems to be weird when you have +5 in relationship with a Native and you have 0 negative issues with them you still cannot offer a Defensive Pacts too them. But others you can offer with only pleased in relationship. With my game style which is rather peaceful and not very fast expanding I can easy get 4-5 defensive pacts if I get FF Pocahontas. My last game I have 6 defensive pacts. Check save. Everyone is friends with me. I would think this is too good even for this difficulty (Explorer). Should this be like this? Portugal declared war on Apache which I had Defensive Pact with. As a result the game thought "I" declared war and I lost all my pacts. I dont think this is right to be honest. I got pulled into a conflict to defend another nation. And not be punished for this? This is what I find is wrong with defensive pacts and not having alliances. Dont like this.

Is AI expanding too fast or too slow?
I would start here by saying that map sizes and starting locations needs to be looked at. European AI tends to build on top of each other, just look at my save and you can see that Portugal and myself is rather alone. England, Spain and Netherlands are clustered in a area and clearly hindered by this. Portugal is big and got lots of culture compared to the rest of us. I have been building and spending every gold I have earned to expanding but not over stretching my empire. I cannot keep up until late in the game, year 1650 onwards when I start to get stronger than AI. On Giant map size distances seems to be better between the Europeans than other sizes. But European AI seems to always cluster their settlements together. Why not teach them to look for good spots around the world? After all it is a big new world out there.

Is AI not starting Revolution when it should?
Year 1774 and I got 100% Rebel Sentiment in most of my towns except maybe 1 where i got 85 or something. But still I only got 66% Total Rebel Sentiment when looking at Victory Condition screen. Same as the English which also is really strong. But no information about possible English Independence as of now year 1774. July 1776 I declare Independence as France. I have attached a save where I cheated and placed some colonists on top of most of English settlements. As you can see the English which is my strongest enemy is NOOOOOOOOOOwhere near independence. Really weak. Save is absolutely worth having a look at the English settlements.

Is AI using Troops and Ships wisely?
I have observed a Privateer or two but hardly around my boats area. The AI is defending very poorly. One poor unit per settlement policy is observed throughout the map as defence in settlements. The AI have a stack of units as their main force. If you kill this main force then you have full control and it seems they cannot recover.

Is King increasing taxes too fast?
The King is increasing taxes in a too fast manner I think. I am playing on Explorer difficulty and I find myself being forced to accept the tax increases. The King can manage in turn 10 to demand gold. If you pay him the gold he will still demand tax in turn 12. Which I think is totally crap. If you pay the king then you should be given some credit, end of story. This means it should be maybe a small relationship boost and a time boost between next time he claims gold. On the other hand if you don't pay tribute then you should be maybe have more often gold claims/tax increases from the King. Extremely unbalanced feature. Example: If you tell the king no you will be up 20 percent in tax within a short time. Why is he also demanding almost all your gold? 20000 gold is no problem for him to demand if you have it. I bet the AI does not pay taxes? Tax is also increased above max tax which was 52%. Now suddenly it is 56%? Explorer difficulty should be easy I believe and this is not balanced to this Explorer difficulty.

Stupid Behaviour Observations:
The AI seem to never go for specialists. They have Jesuit Missionaries as Pioneers and Farmers as Soldiers. Why does not AI recruit a Jesuit Missionary as a Missionary? Or is this Pioneer I have observed the one you start with and it cannot be upgraded to Hardy Pioneer because AI does not know how to clear speciality then pioneer needs to be turned into free colonist for all nations at beginning of game. The AI should be thought to recruit Veteran Soldiers too or at least educate their soldiers. Can we bring back free colonists Learn By Doing become Veteran Soldiers after a certain amount of battles won? This would solve the lack of veteran soldiers in AI armies.

Saves Attached! But game is still going and more will be added as I go along...

Game is almost finished. I have come to the conclusion that "Defenses" firing at kings troops is way to strong. They never loose/miss either. Chance of missing should be very very present. Maybe actually only 10-20% chance of hitting. Would be realistic if you think about the technology behind a old fashion cannon. King actually lost 12 Man'O'Wars in 1 turn. HAHA. Also impossible to follow the war since you actually dont see the battles. Game is too easy at this point even at Explorer. Anther thing to notice is that the total point the AI gets do not correctly represent the state of him. I could not keep up with AI on points throughout my game. But I would have destroyed him in a war and this was Explorer difficulty. Something is wrong.
 

Attachments

  • Gomer_Pyle - Play Testing RnR - France - Year 1648.ColonizationSave
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  • Gomer_Pyle - Play Testing RnR - France - Year 1663 - Check Defensive Pacts.ColonizationSave
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  • Gomer_Pyle - Play Testing RnR - France - Year 1685.ColonizationSave
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  • Gomer_Pyle - Play Testing RnR - Year - I cheated and placed units on English coloni.ColonizationSave
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  • Gomer_Pyle - Play Testing RnR - France - July 1776 - Revolution.ColonizationSave
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Yeah this is what I understand it to be aswell. I can to this I think. But I would need the correct versions of nation names in french,german, spanish and italian. I am not sure Google Translate is gonna be correct...

Vanilla Civ4Col already has those (excepting New Portugal), so we could use them.

EDIT: This is the Portugal name text from Beyond the Sword:

Code:
	<TEXT>
		<Tag>TXT_KEY_CIV_PORTUGAL_SHORT_DESC</Tag>
		<English>Portugal</English>
		<French>
			<Text>Portugais</Text>
			<Gender>Male</Gender>
			<Plural>1</Plural>
		</French>
		<German>
			<Text>Portugal</Text>
			<Gender>Male</Gender>
			<Plural>0</Plural>
		</German>
		<Italian>
			<Text>Portogallo</Text>
			<Gender>Male</Gender>
			<Plural>0</Plural>
		</Italian>
		<Spanish>
			<Text>Portugal</Text>
			<Gender>Male</Gender>
			<Plural>0</Plural>
		</Spanish>
	</TEXT>

So all we have to do is add each language's form of "New" on the front.

And the adjective, in case it is needed:

Code:
	<TEXT>
		<Tag>TXT_KEY_CIV_PORTUGAL_ADJECTIVE</Tag>
		<English>
			<Text>Portuguese:Portuguese</Text>
			<Gender>Male</Gender>
			<Plural>0:1</Plural>
		</English>
		<French>
			<Text>portugais:portugaise:portugais:portugaises</Text>
			<Gender>Male:Female:Male:Female</Gender>
			<Plural>0:0:1:1</Plural>
		</French>
		<German>
			<Text>Portugiesisch:portugiesischen:portugiesische</Text>
			<Gender>Neuter:Neuter:Neuter</Gender>
			<Plural>0:0:0</Plural>
		</German>
		<Italian>
			<Text>portoghese:portoghesi</Text>
			<Gender>Male</Gender>
			<Plural>0:1</Plural>
		</Italian>
		<Spanish>
			<Text>portugués:portuguesa:portugueses:portuguesas</Text>
			<Gender>Male:Female:Male:Female</Gender>
			<Plural>0:0:1:1</Plural>
		</Spanish>
	</TEXT>
 

Hehe! Game is very good even if it is a bit easy on Explorer with my kind of careful gamestyle. Atleast it has turned out like this time. But what is that song where you can barely hear 2 people talk? :confused: Also a bit of the new music is a bit two low volume wise? Atleast the slower music seems a bit wrongly placed. But overall it is great!
 
Game is very good even if it is a bit easy on Explorer with my kind of careful gamestyle.

Ok, that is already good news. :)

But what is that song where you can barely hear 2 people talk? :confused: Also a bit of the new music is a bit two low volume wise? Atleast the slower music seems a bit wrongly placed. But overall it is great!

You can find all the music in
\Assets\Sounds\Soundtrack

If you think that some of the songs do not fit, then tell me the title please. :)

If volume of these pieces is too low, I could adjust the settings for them, of course.
Did you check your setting for volume of music in options ?
Is it 100% ?
 
@team:

Currently it does not make any sense to collect further savegames.

Reason:

They will not work in a few weeks from now anyways.
(DLL and XML will have changed too much.)

We will do balancing after we have finished our planned features and have done merge with TAC 2.03.

-------------------

Feedback and Observations will still be valuable. :thumbsup:
 
I have updated my testing thread. I suggest you have a look at this. I am really worried about the the way AI has handled itself in my game. Mostly new stuff in part about Independence.
 
I have updated my testing thread. I suggest you have a look at this. I am really worried about the the way AI has handled itself in my game. Mostly new stuff in part about Independence.

I will take care of balancing after we have implemented our features planned for Release 1 and have done the merge with TAC 2.03.
I will also take a detailled look at AI again.

But your points give me good hints, where to look at. :thumbsup:

Currently my priorities are:

A) Bugfixing
B) Implementing our planned features

A mod like this will not be done in one day. ;)
(We need to go step by step ...)
 
Do I understand you correctly now that you want "New" infront of nation name on all europeans and not their native language?

This good idea has one serious minus. You could correctly display on your screen all standard Latin letters. However, the problem appears with such letters as ñ (in "Nueva España"), ã (in São Sarvador), etc. Now I see in TAC 2.02d "Sro Salvador" instead of São Sarvador.
 
Now I see in TAC 2.02d "Sro Salvador" instead of São Sarvador.

Eventually a problem with escaping. :think:

As I said, let us ignore small errors in Texts for now and come back to this after merge with TAC 2.03. :thumbsup:
 
As I said, we better wait until after TAC 2.03. :dunno:

Eventually it is also better if we do split this work then by Native speakers:

ray -> German
Robert -> French
colonialfan -> English

Spanish ? (Probably simply use English texts first.)
Italian ? (Probably simply use English texts first.)

I suggest we ignore Texts for now. :)

I can support ray...
 
OK Guys, here are some issues:

Bugs (maybe?)

#Transport
The Keep minimum function was not working properly.
I think the logic should be - if cargo is tagged for export, and quantity is more than minimum keep, then load excess (i.e. quantity - minimum keep).
However the trigger was working correctly - it wouldn't load anything unless quantity was more than minimum keep - but then it would load everything (i.e. loads full quantity instead of quantity - minimum keep).

#Storage / Warehouse:
- At first I was quite confused about this and thought the new text on the settlement screen was about population since it is placed near the population number. Longer term it may need a rollover / documentation (my comment not a bug report at this stage).
- It was a bit tricky to test because of above transport issue - large volumes were being moved when I didn't really want them to be.
- But I think there is a bug at Customs House level - warehouse would start to run into problems above 1,400 when I should have been able to get to 1,800. Also within that it would always start removing cloth whenever it got above 100, irrespective of total warehouse volume.

Also what is the mechanism for deciding what goods to lose? For example, at the start of the game I think it is a bit unfair to take 3 guns or 3 horses, because of a bit of excess timber, thereby making all the other guns / horses useless for defense. Plus if there is horse pasture should horses be counted in the warehouse anyway?

#Horses
I am not sure if we have aligned horse pasture to map generation yet. But I found this a bit strange. I had a settlement with a stable, a rancher, 100 horses in the warehouse, surrounded by flat fertile tiles where I could make farms / plantations, but I couldn't make any horse pasture anywhere so I couldn't produce any horses at that Settlement.
However my pioneers were being given options to create horse pasture on less suitable tiles at other settlements (on peaks, or on hills with no food only light forest / ore).

When I eventually got a horse bonus square working at another settlement I found it a bit unusual that the number of mini horse icons on the tile kept changing. I couldn't work out why I would only be producing 2 horses, then 14, then back to 2 again. However, this was really created by the transport system bug clearing all my horses instead of keeping a minimum breeding stock in the warehouse - I doubt other players will see this much variation.

Questions:
#Escorting treasure back - this certainly changes the exploration dynamic and makes it more equitable. If you leave the treasure in the village where it was gained, will it stay claimable? Can scouts capture other nations treasure or is it just indians (and if the indians attack a treasure does it go to their tribal wealth or is it destroyed?).

# Peaks / Roads - so peaks are now impassable unless a pioneer builds a road. Perhaps they should also be un-mineable in a settlement unless there is a road first?
- And in a war, where traditionally the invader cannot get any advantage from roads in my cultural area, can they still use my roads to cross peaks or are these impassable to them (but not me)?

#Number of Nations
- We are on a path adding more European nations (now 6 in total), and more Indian tribes. I don't have a problem with this and I think it adds more interest to the game.
- However, the Foreign Adviser screen is now very packed and becomes a little hard to interpret. It is OK for my nation (plus a lot of this information is now on the main screen info toggle). But if I want to check on the status of another nation's relations it is a bit difficult. Does anyone else see this as a problem (or perhaps we should not expect perfect knowledge of another nation's dealings)?

But otherwise very impressive work.
 
OK Guys, here are some issues:

Bugs (maybe?)

#Transport
The Keep minimum function was not working properly.
I think the logic should be - if cargo is tagged for export, and quantity is more than minimum keep, then load excess (i.e. quantity - minimum keep).
However the trigger was working correctly - it wouldn't load anything unless quantity was more than minimum keep - but then it would load everything (i.e. loads full quantity instead of quantity - minimum keep).
Oh! We should check. The problem is I usually do the micro-management myself... So I've never noticed that;)

#Storage / Warehouse:
- At first I was quite confused about this and thought the new text on the settlement screen was about population since it is placed near the population number. Longer term it may need a rollover / documentation (my comment not a bug report at this stage).
- It was a bit tricky to test because of above transport issue - large volumes were being moved when I didn't really want them to be.
- But I think there is a bug at Customs House level - warehouse would start to run into problems above 1,400 when I should have been able to get to 1,800. Also within that it would always start removing cloth whenever it got above 100, irrespective of total warehouse volume.

Also what is the mechanism for deciding what goods to lose? For example, at the start of the game I think it is a bit unfair to take 3 guns or 3 horses, because of a bit of excess timber, thereby making all the other guns / horses useless for defense. Plus if there is horse pasture should horses be counted in the warehouse anyway?
I'll check this too. But you must be right. I've lost some goods too, and each time, the goods lost were "important" or "strategic" goods... :think:

#Horses
I am not sure if we have aligned horse pasture to map generation yet. But I found this a bit strange. I had a settlement with a stable, a rancher, 100 horses in the warehouse, surrounded by flat fertile tiles where I could make farms / plantations, but I couldn't make any horse pasture anywhere so I couldn't produce any horses at that Settlement.
However my pioneers were being given options to create horse pasture on less suitable tiles at other settlements (on peaks, or on hills with no food only light forest / ore).

When I eventually got a horse bonus square working at another settlement I found it a bit unusual that the number of mini horse icons on the tile kept changing. I couldn't work out why I would only be producing 2 horses, then 14, then back to 2 again. However, this was really created by the transport system bug clearing all my horses instead of keeping a minimum breeding stock in the warehouse - I doubt other players will see this much variation.
Thank you for your feedback... It's precious information.
 
Questions:
#Escorting treasure back - this certainly changes the exploration dynamic and makes it more equitable. If you leave the treasure in the village where it was gained, will it stay claimable? Can scouts capture other nations treasure or is it just indians (and if the indians attack a treasure does it go to their tribal wealth or is it destroyed?).
I haven't checked, but normally natives can't attack themselves, so they can't capture a treasure if you leave it on their village. Natives can indeed capture your treasure, and it is automatically changed into gold when it reaches a native village. Of course you can try to capture it back.

# Peaks / Roads - so peaks are now impassable unless a pioneer builds a road. Perhaps they should also be un-mineable in a settlement unless there is a road first?
- And in a war, where traditionally the invader cannot get any advantage from roads in my cultural area, can they still use my roads to cross peaks or are these impassable to them (but not me)?
Un-mineable? I don't understand? How can you build a mine without getting on the peak? Or do you mean no one should be able to work on it?
About the second question... I don't know
 
#Number of Nations
- We are on a path adding more European nations (now 6 in total), and more Indian tribes. I don't have a problem with this and I think it adds more interest to the game.
- However, the Foreign Adviser screen is now very packed and becomes a little hard to interpret. It is OK for my nation (plus a lot of this information is now on the main screen info toggle). But if I want to check on the status of another nation's relations it is a bit difficult. Does anyone else see this as a problem (or perhaps we should not expect perfect knowledge of another nation's dealings)?

But otherwise very impressive work.
Indeed you're right!
We could try to improve the Diplomacy screen... How? Good question !
a) We could hide some leaderheads dynamically(but this seems a little awkward)
b) We could try to make the screen srollable
c) We could completely change the screen (we could use a tabular like Civ 4... But once again, I have NEVER been able to do a scrollable tabular...)
 
#Transport
The Keep minimum function was not working properly.
I think the logic should be - if cargo is tagged for export, and quantity is more than minimum keep, then load excess (i.e. quantity - minimum keep).
However the trigger was working correctly - it wouldn't load anything unless quantity was more than minimum keep - but then it would load everything (i.e. loads full quantity instead of quantity - minimum keep).

What you describe is the the correct behaviour. :dunno:
(Unless I misunderstand you of course, but I will check at the week end. :thumbsup:)

#Storage / Warehouse:
- At first I was quite confused about this and thought the new text on the settlement screen was about population since it is placed near the population number. Longer term it may need a rollover / documentation (my comment not a bug report at this stage).
- But I think there is a bug at Customs House level - warehouse would start to run into problems above 1,400 when I should have been able to get to 1,800. Also within that it would always start removing cloth whenever it got above 100, irrespective of total warehouse volume.

Everything you describe is exactly how I implemented / wanted it to work. :)

I wanted Custom House to sell at lower quantities than Max-Storage.
(This is important to my opinion and it is configuarble in XML.)

But yes, there will be some documentation needed.
(Whenever I have time to do so.)

Also what is the mechanism for deciding what goods to lose? For example, at the start of the game I think it is a bit unfair to take 3 guns or 3 horses, because of a bit of excess timber, thereby making all the other guns / horses useless for defense. Plus if there is horse pasture should horses be counted in the warehouse anyway?

It is basically a percentual calculation of overflow.
Again, I will explain and document in detail, whenever I have time to do so. :)

I am not sure if we have aligned horse pasture to map generation yet.

No, we did not do proper balancing yet. :)

But I found this a bit strange. I had a settlement with a stable, a rancher, 100 horses in the warehouse, surrounded by flat fertile tiles where I could make farms / plantations, but I couldn't make any horse pasture anywhere so I couldn't produce any horses at that Settlement.

That is how it is implemented.
You need the bonus ressource.

However my pioneers were being given options to create horse pasture on less suitable tiles at other settlements (on peaks, or on hills with no food only light forest / ore).

Without bonus ressource, that would be a bug.
I will check at the weekend. :thumbsup:

When I eventually got a horse bonus square working at another settlement I found it a bit unusual that the number of mini horse icons on the tile kept changing. I couldn't work out why I would only be producing 2 horses, then 14, then back to 2 again.

That is the "percentual breeding".

#Escorting treasure back - this certainly changes the exploration dynamic and makes it more equitable. If you leave the treasure in the village where it was gained, will it stay claimable? Can scouts capture other nations treasure or is it just indians (and if the indians attack a treasure does it go to their tribal wealth or is it destroyed?).

Yes, Scouts can capture other Nations treasures.

# Peaks / Roads - so peaks are now impassable unless a pioneer builds a road. Perhaps they should also be un-mineable in a settlement unless there is a road first?

Impassable -> Yes
Unminable -> No, AI would not understand that.

- And in a war, where traditionally the invader cannot get any advantage from roads in my cultural area, can they still use my roads to cross peaks or are these impassable to them (but not me)?

Everybody can use a road, once it is built. :)


But otherwise very impressive work.

Thanks. :)
Also thanks for testing. :goodjob:
I will check the things you reported on the weekend. :thumbsup:

Generally, many things work differently now and we will have to explain and document in detail before our release.
But these changes were made for certain reasons and I think they are fun to play. :)
 
@team:

My next big topic (except the planned Native Nations) is balancing.
In order to do so, it would be great to get more feedback. :)

Especially interesting for me:

1. Diplomacy / Leaderheads
2. Occurance of our new features (DLL-Diplo-Events, Native Raids, ...)
3. Strength of our new features (Citadels / Musketmen firing, ...)
4. Effectivity of our new features (Bargaining with Natives, Breeding Horses, ...)
5. AI development (cities, army, improvements, ...)
6. Development of Taxes, Immigration-Threshold, ...

Tell me everything you notice. :)

Edit:

The first balancing run will be a "raw-balancing" not a fine tuning. :)
Let us focus first on the things that you really believe that they are problematic.

I am not interested in something like:

"Hm, I think taxes are not perfect yet."
or
"Eventually the Natives are giving presents a little bit too often."

I am interested in things like:

"Musektmen firing from Stockades is totally overpowered / much too weak."
or
"AI is offering Defensive Pacts much too often."
or
"The DLL-Event Croweded Prisons appears too often and starts to annoy me."
or
"I have played 300 rounds but never seen feature X."
or
"I get so many immigrants, I do not know what to do with them."
 
#Lost AI (Spanish) Caravel
In a game I have a Spanish AI Caravel that has spent about 50-100 moves traveling the same 4 tiles into a native village and out again, every turn. I can't see any reason for this - I have sent a frigate out in front of it, but nothing seems to be stopping the Caravel and making it go back.
This is the second R&R game where this has happened.

Cannot think of anything we implemented, that could cause this. :think:
(Maybe it is a bug left from TAC. :dunno:)

Would need to check with a savegame, once we are in pre-release testing.
(At a point when we have implemented all of our features for release 1 and will only do testing for a few weeks.)

#Frigate Commandeered Event:
The event box for this doesn't appear to be formatted or structured properly (not sure if I can get this to reappear to get a screen shot of it).

@agaro:
Screenshot would really be great. :)

@olranth:
Could you take care of that ? :thumbsup:

#Capturing Treasure:
...

Feature should work better now for AI and humans. :)

- My scout cannot capture other European treasures, ...

I don't know, where the problem is. :confused:

I tested it and it worked perfectly for me.
(I could attack and capture a treasure with my Scout.)

Maybe there was still the "Forced Peace"-Period at beginning of game active. :dunno:
 
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