Merging modmods

I wonder if Schmiddie follows this thread.

Not really until now...or let's say "roughly".;)

I have wrote it in an intern email so far, but I think I should it post here again:

I have currently not the time for graphical and technical work on the mod. This is related to my own business situation (hard job).

In the next weeks I will do the intended graphic updates I have started already a few weeks before and maybe some further small changes on the mod and publish a new version 2.2 after a few weeks.

I would be happy to include some work from the mod-modder, but It must be safeguarded that this work will be adjusted with the mod before implementation in the main mod.

After that release 2.2 I will start a period of playing, testing and collecting ideas (from my own and from the community) what could/should be improved or implemented (I have not played the mod since months myself!!!!). In this period I will mostly stop modding (modding and playing the mod excludes each other - this is my experience).

So please let me say it clearly :

I have not played/tested the mod since nearly a year but I have only modded and modded and modded...the same as Ray did in the last years. This must be changed - I intend to enjoy the work we all did so far!

I'm very delighted that our mod has become interesting again for some encouraged modder - this shows that our work should not have been so bad in the last years.

However, from my side the work at the mod and the output rate of RaR Releases must and will be decreased in the future - after the next Release at the latest.

Please, give me a period of taking a breather - without the pressure of reading posts and threads and posts with ideas and ideas and other ideas...

Finally I maybe will read your ideas resp. threads here and there - but do not expect that I will answer or support the implementation into the main mod.

If you fancy to create your own mod-mod of RaR - feel free to do it. I will be happy to see the result. Due to the fact that after the next Release (I suppose that will be in a few weeks) I intend to stop main work at the mod for some time - you should be able to organize a mod-mod without the fear that that the development of the main mod will ruin your efforts.

Furthermore please do not expect my support of a mod-mod.

Regards

Schmiddie
 
I guess the current active modders would be in the team? That would be agnat86, Commander Bello, nightinggale vetiarvind and Schmiddie

I would be. :)

I may have missed something, but except for me (accepting) and Schmiddie (declining) the other ones did not respond?
Still in the phase of making one's thoughts, or is the idea dead? :(
 
I may have missed something, but except for me (accepting) and Schmiddie (declining) the other ones did not respond?
Still in the phase of making one's thoughts, or is the idea dead? :(

Pretty much. Nightinggale was interested but also ambivalent about it, so I presume it is a decline. However, I know he is interested in expanding on RaR, perhaps as a seperate mod-mod.
 
I may have missed something, but except for me (accepting) and Schmiddie (declining) the other ones did not respond?
Still in the phase of making one's thoughts, or is the idea dead? :(

I'm in, and I assumed Nightingale is in too, given that he started this thread.

So as I see it, there are four of us. I thought Nightingale was going to make a new project on git, or am I mistaken?
 
That's great. We will wait on Nightinggale's response before we commit to anything. I would like to inform that my time would be limited for the weekends. (prob. around 20 hrs per month). I will be active on forums regularly though. Simply cuz I have the usual cocktail that kills modding time - work, other hobbies, real life, etc (aka the Modotov cocktail :lol:). Also,a few hours to play the game :D
 
That's great. We will wait on Nightinggale's response before we commit to anything. I would like to inform that my time would be limited for the weekends. (prob. around 20 hrs per month). I will be active on forums regularly though. Simply cuz I have the usual cocktail that kills modding time - work, other hobbies, real life, etc. Also,a few hours to play the game :D

One think we could already do is decide what we are going to commit. Unless there are specific aspects you really don't like, I'll just commit my modmod in its entirety. So I'll give an overview again.
A while back, I already shared this:

Spoiler :

CONTENTS:

New traits for European leaders
I have added two brand new civilization traits to this game for the Russians and the Swedish, and added four new leader traits. I also made modifications to several of the other traits.
The addition of four leader traits brings the total number of available leader traits to 16. As there are 16 playable leaders in the game, and each of them gets two leader traits, this means that every leader trait is used twice.

These are the six new traits:
Spoiler :
Agricultural (Swedish civilization trait)
  • +10% Food production in all settlements
  • -10% Food required for population growth
Imperialist (Russian civilization trait)
  • Free promotion: Homeland Guard I (+15% Combat Strength inside your Cultural Borders)
  • -25% Culture required for Territorial Expansion

Note: I've changed the civilization traits of the Swedish and the Russians because I disliked the original ones (Foresters and Hunters Tradition). I disliked them because these traits focused on very minor aspects of the game (lumber production and fur trade), in contrast with the other six civilization traits, which focus on major aspects like immigration or trade.
Because of this, I never felt inclined to pick either of these nations, as there was no clear strategy associated with them. These two new traits focus on larger aspects of the game: Population Growth and Territory.

Sophisticated
  • +25% production of Education in all settlements
  • +50% chance colonists learn specialisms through learning by doing
  • -50% cost of training specialists in schools
Capitalist
  • +25% Storage Capacity in all Settlements
  • +25% better results from bargaining with Natives
Agronomist
  • Pioneers work 50% faster
  • Improvements cost 50% less money to build
Militaristic
  • All units (siege units, transport units and ships) cost -25% Hammers, Tools, Cannons, Muskets and Blades to construct
These are the changes to existing traits:
Spoiler :
Great Admiral
  • 10% combat bonus now also applies to Privateers and Pirate Frigates
Undemanding
  • Food bonus no longer fixed at 2 for each settlement. It now scales with the bell-producing building that is present in the city (1 Food per Basecamp, 2 per Village Hall, etc.)

In assigning new traits to leaders, I've paid attention to three things:
  • Diversity: No two leaders may share more than one trait with one another.
  • Synergy: Traits preferably should work together to give a leader certain strong points, and as a result a unique gameplay experience.
  • Historical Correctness: The traits need to make sense when considering the historical background of a leader.
Here an overview of all leaders, and their associated traits:
Spoiler :
English: Tolerant
  • George Washington: Great General, Disciplined
  • William Penn: Libertarian, Undemanding
French: Cooperative
  • Louis de Frontenac: Expansive, Militaristic
  • Samuel de Champlain: Enterprising, Industrious
Spanish: Conquistador
  • Hernan Cortes: Expansive, Disciplined
  • Simon Bolivar: Determined, Great General
Dutch: Mercantile
  • Peter Stuyvesant: Administrative, Capitalist
  • Adriaen van der Donck: Charismatic, Sophisticated
Portuguese: Explorers
  • Martim Afonso de Sousa: Resourceful, Administrative
  • Mem de Sa: Great Admiral, Militaristic
Danish: Seafarers
  • Hans Egede: Enterprising, Sophisticated
  • Jens Munk: Great Admiral, Resourceful
Swedish: Agricultural
  • Johan Risingh: Industrious, Undemanding
  • Johan Printz: Charismatic, Agronomist
Russians: Imperialist
  • Ermak Timofeyevich: Determined, Agronomist
  • Alexandr Baranov: Libertarian, Capitalist
I've made changes to various nations starting units as well, to reflect their changed strengths:
Spoiler :
French: Jesuit Missionary instead of Hardy Pioneer
Portuguese: Seasoned Scout instead of Expert Fisherman
Danish: Expert Fisherman instead of Expert Farmer, Fluyt instead of Caravel
Swedish: Expert Farmer instead of Expert Lumberjack, Fluyt instead of Caravel
Russians: Hardy Pioneer instead of Expert Hunter

I've also made changes to the personalities of each leader, to give each of them a unique character.

New traits for Native leaders
I have added only one new trait for Natives (Patriarch), but made modifications to most of the others. These are the traits that have been changed:
Spoiler :
Patriarch (new trait)
  • +25% Gold at first European contact
  • -25% Cost of Native Land purchasing
Prosperous
  • Added: +25% production of Silver, Gems and Gold.
Farmers
  • Added: +2 Food production on all land tiles.
  • Added: Homeland Guard promotion for all units (+15% Strength inside Cultural Borders).
  • Removed: All other Food bonuses.
Nomadic (originally named Nomads)
  • Added: -15% Food required for Population Growth.
  • Changed: Close Combat promotion for all units instead of Fearless.
Hunters
  • Added: +100% Great General emergence rate inside Cultural Borders.
Fishermen (originally named Coastal Warriors)
  • Added: +2 Food production on all Water tiles.
  • Removed: +100% Great General emergence rate inside Cultural Borders.
Raiders
  • Added: -50% XP required for unit promotions.
Forestwarriors
  • Added: 50% Great General emergence.
  • Changed: Great General emergence rate inside Cultural Borders reduced to 50%.
Highlander (originally named Climber)
  • Added: +2 Food production on all Hills tiles (to allow these nations to build big cities in Hills and Mountains).
One thing I did not like about the original mod was the similarity between many native nations (in fact, some nations were almost exact copies of one another, like the Tarascans, Mixtecs, Zapotecs, Toromona and Aztecs).
I've tried to give each of the 30 different native nations a different "feel." To do this, I've made large changes to their personalities in terms of raiding behavior, gift-giving, tendency to feel threatened, willingness to declare war, etc.

This is to partly to ensure that no two native nations behave the same way, but also to spread aggressive and peaceful natives more evenly across the map. In the original mod, the southern and equatorial tribes are highly aggressive, while almost all North American tribes were quite peaceful. I've tried to balance that out a bit more.

The second way to create diversity is by assigning new traits to native leaders. I've made sure that no two tribes share exactly the same traits, and in addition to that, I've tried to spread the different traits evenly across the globe. These are the native leaders, with their new traits:
Spoiler :
Cunhambebe (Tupi): Farmers, Raiders, Trader
Agueybana (Arawak): Farmers, Fishermen, Patriarch
Montezuma (Aztec): Prosperous, Farmers, Patriarch
Huayna Capac (Inca): Prosperous, Highlander, Pupil
Mangas Coloradas (Apache): Nomadic, Raiders, Mentor
Sitting Bull (Sioux): Nomadic, Forestwarriors, Mentor
Logan (Iroquois): Farmers, Forestwarriors, Patriarch
Oconostota (Cherokee): Hunters, Forestwarriors, Trader
Tecun Uman (Maya): Prosperous, Fishermen, Mentor
Orkeke (Tehuelche): Nomadic, Hunters, Trader
Nunkui (Shuar): Raiders, Highlander, Mentor
Tuglawina (Inuit): Hunters, Fishermen, Pupil
Kondiaronk (Huron): Fishermen, Forestwarriors, Pupil
Cocijoeza(Zapotec): Prosperous, Forestwarriors, Mentor
Sepe Tiaraju (Guarani): Hunters, Forestwarriors, Pupil
Jaureybo (Carib): Fishermen, Raiders, Trader
Oppussoquionuske (Algonquian): Farmers, Hunters, Mentor
Narbona (Navajo): Nomadic, Highlander, Patriarch
Machipara (Machiparo): Nomadic, Fishermen, Patriarch
Serpent Quechquemitl (Mixtec): Prosperous, Raiders, Pupil
Quemuenchatocha (Muisca): Prosperous, Highlander, Mentor
Iron Jacket (Comanche): Nomadic, Raiders, Trader
Washakie (Shoshone): Nomadic, Hunters, Pupil
Tarano (Toromona): Forestwarriors, Highlander, Trader
Running Eagle (Blackfoot): Hunters, Raiders, Trader
Pine Leaf (Crow): Hunters, Highlander, Patriarch
Uracca (Guaymi): Fishermen, Highlander, Pupil
Erendira (Tarascan): Prosperous, Farmers, Trader
Aomagua (Omagua): Farmers, Fishermen, Pupil
Lautaro (Mapuche): Raiders, Forestwarriors, Patriarch

I've also tweaked the factors that determine your relationship with natives, as I disliked the way all natives instantly hated you just because of the number of colonies you owned, instead of the proximity of those colonies to their lands. The idea is to make the interaction with natives just as challenging, but more interesting and realistic:
Spoiler :
  • The attitude penalty that results from the total amount of colonies you have has been greatly reduced.
  • The attitude penalty that results from large colonies being located near native villages has been greatly increased.
  • Trading now also slightly affects how much of a threat natives perceive you to be.
  • If the perceived threat ("Your way of life is threatening to ours") is reduced to zero, it can become an attitude bonus ("Your presence is a boon to our way of life").
  • The attitude penalty for declining native trade offers has been removed.

Founding Fathers
I've made some big changes to the founding fathers. Mostly, I tried to make each founding father appear at the point of the game where he would make sense (so no Valuable Wood-giving FFs in the endgame). I've also increased the number of units provided by FFs in the late game.

Jose de San Martin, who is not included yet in the main mod, is included in this Modmod as well.

New Promotions
I've added four new promotions to the game:
  • Homeland Guard I (+15% Strength inside Cultural Borders)
  • Homeland Guard II (+25% Strength inside Cultural Borders)
  • Homeland Guard III (+35% Strength inside Cultural Borders, requires Great General)
  • Sea Explorer II (Better results from Shipwrecks, requires Sea Explorer I)
The purpose of the Homeland Guard promotions is to make Borders matter more, which especially benefits the Russians. The Sea Explorer promotion serves to turn Sloops (or other vessels) into naval equivalents of Seasoned Scouts.

Schmiddie's changes on railroads
As I didn't like the inclusion of trains into this historical period, I've also included the changes Schmiddie made to this in his modmod.
  • Trains are replaced by Carriages (which I renamed Convoys)
  • Train Stations are replaced by Waystations
  • Railroads and Plastered Roads are replaced by Plastered Country Roads and Country Roads respectively

Minor changes
In addition to the changes mentioned above, I've also made many minor alterations:
Spoiler :
- Greatly expanded city lists, and corrected some historical errors in city lists (most notably the Blackfoot).
- Waystations (formerly Train Stations) now require a City Hall instead of a Town Hall.
- The requirements in Sailcloth, Rope, Tools, Cannons and Blades have been changed both for ships and for land transport units.
- Slaves and Converted Natives now also get a production bonus for Stone.
- Dragoons get the Leadership 2 promotion for free (as it was in previous versions of the mod).
- Mounted Braves and Armed Mounted Braves get the Dragoon promotion (higher withdrawal change, attack bonus vs Cannon Regiment).
- Expert Farmers get a 100% bonus for Barley instead of +3.
- Settler Militias get a +25% Combat bonus inside their Cultural Borders instead of a 25% City Defense bonus.
- The combat bonus of conquistadores vs Native Mercs has been increased.
- Razing native villages results in more treasure (to make a conquistador strategy more lucrative)
- Cocoa plantations can now be built on hill tiles with bananas or coconuts (so the food yield from such tiles can be increased).


In addition to that, I've been experimenting a little with graphics over the past week, and I came up with this new citystyle for several North American natives (a very simple reskin of the existing one):

Spoiler :


And new backgrounds for some native leaders:

Nunkui:
Spoiler :



Tarano:
Spoiler :


Jaureybo:
Spoiler :



In addition to that, I will also be adding my four new native nations:

Spoiler :
All units of the new nations. From back to front: Haida, Timucua, Ohlone, Dene:
Spoiler :




A close up of the Haida units, of which I'm especially proud (the Haida are a very interesting native people):
Spoiler :



Koyah, leader of the Haida:
Spoiler :


Saturiwa, leader of the Timucua:
Spoiler :


Xigmacse, leader of the Ohlone:
Spoiler :


Thanadelthur, leader of the Dene (not very content with this leaderhead, I hope I will find a better one):
Spoiler :


What the foreign advisor would look like if everyone knew each other:
Spoiler :


Also, I've adapted a citystyle I found to serve as a new citystyle for certain north american natives, who currently use teepees, but in reality lived in huts:

Spoiler :


This artstyle would be fitting for the Cherokee, Navajo, Ohlone and Nez Perce, the nation Schmiddie has added to the core mod.
 

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Well, wouldn't be our contribution all of our individual modmods, except for the things which after a combined discussion would be excluded?

And then the ideas, which are yet to come, of course...
 
Well, wouldn't be our contribution all of our individual modmods, except for the things which after a combined discussion would be excluded?

And then the ideas, which are yet to come, of course...

Sure. For eg. in your mod I would like to exclude features such as "Crosses for sales" (unless the correlation factor is very small and doesn't affect balance) and initial military (which seemed OP to me as you could just blitz through the first native tribe you encountered). Maybe one conquistador in the dock seems fine, but it is a-historical, maybe other than the spaniards.

I do not understand the combat features, so I cannot have any opinion w.r.t to the new modified combat system which already seems to have some sort of in-built withdrawal.
Other than that, the other features are very good additions.

W.R.T to agnat86's mod, I'm not sure of having natives have a 2 times wariness due to proximity. I don't know if this is balanced correctly with the "number of colonies" change. I think the factor should be reduced a bit. Other than that, other changes are OK with me.
 
I don't mind doing it, but what should it be based on? At the moment I'm more or less just waiting for RaR 2.2 to have a solid milestone to start from.

As Schmiddie said, RaR_2.2 might need some more weeks, I would suggest to base it on what we currently have in store: RaR_2.1 :)
 
And additionally I would request that we open a thread for this in the main Creation&Customization forum, if you other guys agree?
There we can open additional threads, if necessary and don't interfere with RaR as it currently is. Especially, as RaR players may be lead into this subforum by new messages, only to learn that it is about our modmod in which they might not (yet) be interested.
 
As Schmiddie said, RaR_2.2 might need some more weeks, I would suggest to base it on what we currently have in store: RaR_2.1 :)

I keep my modmod up to date with all changes Schmiddie makes to the Core Mod. We could use that as our base, then we won't have to add all those changes at a later point.
 
I keep my modmod up to date with all changes Schmiddie makes to the Core Mod. We could use that as our base, then we won't have to add all those changes at a later point.

But that would prohibit any release of our combined effort in the meantime.
We cannot release anything from RaR, before it has been released for RaR itself.
 
Sure. For eg. in your mod I would like to exclude features such as "Crosses for sales" (unless the correlation factor is very small and doesn't affect balance) and initial military (which seemed OP to me as you could just blitz through the first native tribe you encountered). Maybe one conquistador in the dock seems fine, but it is a-historical, maybe other than the spaniards.

I personally like these features, as long as they are balanced well. A starting army could work, if we would let natives start stronger.

About the crosses, as long as employing preachers remains the main way of gaining them, I'm okay with it.

I do not understand the combat features, so I cannot have any opinion w.r.t to the new modified combat system which already seems to have some sort of in-built withdrawal.
Other than that, the other features are very good additions.

My suggestion, based on my playing experience over the past weeks, would be to increase the number of combat rounds to 8 or 9. I think it happens way too often now, that units withdraw while both are still in the yellow.

Also, I think pirate ships should be changed, so that they can capture goods as well when they defeat ships without destroying them. For example, have them capture goods as long as their target is damaged more than they are themselves.

W.R.T to agnat86's mod, I'm not sure of having natives have a 2 times wariness due to proximity. I don't know if this is balanced correctly with the "number of colonies" change. I think the factor should be reduced a bit. Other than that, other changes are OK with me.

To be honest, I find this a very hard thing to balance correctly. I have also played with a version that multiplied it by 1.5 instead of 2. But then I often got them all Pleased and Friendly, especially when I got the right FFs.

The point is, I want to make dealing with natives not too easy, but also realistic.
In the base mod, you will always have to fight them at some point, but it is completely unrealistic how they get angry, and barely dependent on a player's actual behavior towards a specific tribe.
With my changes, it is much more realistic: if you don't want to upset a certain tribe, you have the option to colonize another place. But I also got the experience that certain tribes get angry extremely fast now, if they happen to be the first natives you encounter. So maybe it should be 1.5 again.:dunno:

I like all changes in your mods, by the way, although I am conflicted about Bello's changes to entering peaks. It can't hurt to make it a little harder, but I would suggest to have natives retain that ability. It often is a great military advantage to them, and they need every advantage they can get.
 
And additionally I would request that we open a thread for this in the main Creation&Customization forum, if you other guys agree?
There we can open additional threads, if necessary and don't interfere with RaR as it currently is. Especially, as RaR players may be lead into this subforum by new messages, only to learn that it is about our modmod in which they might not (yet) be interested.

Yes, I agree with that.:thumbsup:
 
But that would prohibit any release of our combined effort in the meantime.
We cannot release anything from RaR, before it has been released for RaR itself.

I hadn't thought of that.
In that case, it depends on Schmiddie, and on when he is planning to release 2.2.:dunno:

If that is not very long, we can just wait for it.
 
Abt. the starting army in CB's mod, the only issue is that it is not historical. Think about it from the king's perspective, he is just spending some investment on ships and some pioneers\explorers. Would he also have an incentive to spend a huge amount on getting nearly 10 military units to defend them? You bet not. Also, being initially vulnerable adds an interest to the game. You cannot straight away go and get all the natives angry.

I personally like these features, as long as they are balanced well. A starting army could work, if we would let natives start stronger.
I believe balancing is not the only condition. We should also try to remain accurate as much as possible.
About the crosses, as long as employing preachers remains the main way of gaining them, I'm okay with it.
Agreed.

Also, I think pirate ships should be changed, so that they can capture goods as well when they defeat ships without destroying them. For example, have them capture goods as long as their target is damaged more than they are themselves.
It's a good idea from a gameplay perspective but how does that work in real life? 17th century tractor beams? :D

To be honest, I find this a very hard thing to balance correctly. I have also played with a version that multiplied it by 1.5 instead of 2. But then I often got them all Pleased and Friendly, especially when I got the right FFs.

The point is, I want to make dealing with natives not too easy, but also realistic.
In the base mod, you will always have to fight them at some point, but it is completely unrealistic how they get angry, and barely dependent on a player's actual behavior towards a specific tribe.
With my changes, it is much more realistic: if you don't want to upset a certain tribe, you have the option to colonize another place. But I also got the experience that certain tribes get angry extremely fast now, if they happen to be the first natives you encounter. So maybe it should be 1.5 again.:dunno:
Yeah, this is a bit of a risk in gameplay until it is finetuned but the idea is a good one. Maybe all it needs is skewing some percentages? For eg. increase the "wariness due to proximity" to 1.5 and lower the "general wariness due to colony size" by 50%, instead of just removing it altogether. After all, native tribes would be nicer to small colonies than to large expanding ones that are threatening to wipe out their way of life.

I like all changes in your mods, by the way, although I am conflicted about Bello's changes to entering peaks. It can't hurt to make it a little harder, but I would suggest to have natives retain that ability. It often is a great military advantage to them, and they need every advantage they can get.
Thinking about it, this makes sense. The Incans for eg. lived in mountainous terrain. They should be able to traverse it. What about scouts? Should they be allowed access?

And additionally I would request that we open a thread for this in the main Creation&Customization forum, if you other guys agree?
Sure. Also waiting for 2.2 seems like a good idea.
 
Also, I think pirate ships should be changed, so that they can capture goods as well when they defeat ships without destroying them. For example, have them capture goods as long as their target is damaged more than they are themselves.
It's a good idea from a gameplay perspective but how does that work in real life? 17th century tractor beams? :D
Blackbeard were known for scaring victims into surrendering without a fight. Surrendering ships were plundered for cargo and then left to continue their voyage. He would kill any crew, who didn't surrender.

It would make sense for a caravel to surrender and hand over the cargo rather than fight considering we know the most likely outcome. We could make something like a popup for the victim saying that the pirate will destroy the ship unless you hand over the cargo and possibly some gold. You can then pay the pirate to leave your ship undamaged. If you are the pirate, the popup would say "they offer (cargo) for their freedom. Do you accept?" where the answer would be yes, no and then a few with money demands based on value of ship. The AI will then consider the demand for money.

Not sure what to do about this in network games. Maybe we shouldn't use popups to avoid any sync issues.

No, the 17th century didn't use tractor beams. However we know they moved cargo from one ship to another. I'm not sure if they put the ships next to each other or used longboats to ferry the cargo. SOmehow I think the last is the most likely as placing the ships next to each other is risky due to risk of a mast collision. The sails are actually wider than the hull meaning masts are likely to collide even before the hulls are close enough to each other to move between them.

Thinking about it, this makes sense. The Incans for eg. lived in mountainous terrain. They should be able to traverse it. What about scouts? Should they be allowed access?
The problem is that random maps place natives randomly. Incas might be placed on small islands/plains while Sioux could be placed in mountains and inuit could be in the desert. If we should give natives features like that to make them more unique, it would likely be something like place native civ, evaluate terrain owned by tribe and then assign a feature based on terrain.

Ray talked about trying to assign natives to specific regions and the quality of the outcome of that was... well it never entered the svn server. Supposedly that turned out to be rather tricky. Also map generation isn't particularly fast. Adding more slow elements and we would end up with how it was like in civ1 (I think it took me around 5 minutes).

Sure. Also waiting for 2.2 seems like a good idea.
We need to agree on this. If we wait, it could take weeks. If we don't wait, we can start right away, but then upgrading could be an issue when 2.2 is released. The question is if people want to start coding right now because if nothing happens in the first 2-3 weeks after starting something based on 2.1, we might as well just wait for 2.2.
 
We need to agree on this. If we wait, it could take weeks. If we don't wait, we can start right away, but then upgrading could be an issue when 2.2 is released. The question is if people want to start coding right now because if nothing happens in the first 2-3 weeks after starting something based on 2.1, we might as well just wait for 2.2.
I would propose starting right now as any delay just doesn't help anybody.
Most likely each of us would in the meantime do something with the own modmod, making it even harder to come to a compromise what to take for RaRE.
 
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