Why Germans?

Just a thought... why is there a German civilization in this game? Wasnt Austria a far more dominant power in Europe up until the mid-19th century? Having said that, wouldnt Austria be a more appropriate civ to put in this game instead of the Germans?

"germans" could simply refer to all germanic people, of which the austrians are a member. furthermore, while austria was a more important player before 1871, the effects of germany proper in the past 130 years have been, without exaggeration, incredible. The entire map of Europe and the political spectrums of every country in the world have been altered by germany's actions. I say they should be a civilization.

untill bout 1707 austria was the dominating power in east europe couse there kings n queens where Habstburger the same people that rule in the spain empire and italy at this time. from 1707 on austria lost every war against the prussians from Berlin (the Friedrich dynasty) the revenge of austria came in 1933..........

Germany is the 3rd biggest industrial nation today so what else to say?

and i still think the Panzer tank is to weak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
general germans arent militaristic

You can call the German civ Austria if you want to. You can also call it Prussia, or even the Holy Roman Empire!

There were a lot of German states and confederations over the centuries, and since Civ3 goes from 4000BC to 2050AD, no single state fits every age. This problems exists with a lot of the other civs too.

I myself like to play as Prussia instead of Germany, in part because I think the Prussian age was something of a golden one (especially compared to what followed). For the same reason, I prefer to play as the UK/Britain instead of England (I think the British golden age was the 19th century, not the age of England before 1707).

I think the Germans should definitely be in the game - I don't care what group they're part of or whatever. The people we know as the Germans had a lot of influence on the world.

England's "golden age" was their colonist period. And that is reflected in the game.

I wouldn't give much credence to a power in the dark ages, those "powers" were mostly just filling the vacuum of the ancient civs, most especially Rome.

I'm not a history buff, but from my perspective germany play a larger part in our history than prussia or austria, if in fact you consider these to be "different" cultures and civs.

It could be said that germany, england and france could all be the same civ, but of course I'm sure choices were made based on how many germans, english and frence will be buying and playing civ3, versus all the austrians that will be buying it. How many you think that is?

Of course canadians aren't in the picture at all, how do you think they feel?

The English/British colonial period was very long, and I don´t think you can say the whole thing was a golden age. A more precise British golden age was 1815-1890: after the defeat of imperial France, but before the ruinous naval competiton between Britain and Germany.

Queen Elizabeth I in many ways made England a great power, but Britain wasn´t the dominant hegemonic power until 1815. After 1890 or so, and esp. after 1914, its position was more one of first among equals. A better leader would therefore be Wellington, Disraeli or Queen Victoria (even though she was only a figurehead, her reign was long, and included the peak of British power).

1815-1890 was also, I think, the Prussian/German golden age. The cooperation between Britain and Prussia during that time was unmatched, and when that cooperation turned to competition, the result was ruinous for both countries.

I want to know where the Mongols went.

Anyone want to whip up a variant giving us a Mongol civ? The civ specific unit could be the cavalry touman - better than the Chinese rider unit.

My knowledge of early world history is limited but...

Throughout the 1900's, Germany was one of the strongest industrial powers in the world. To make them a stronger country, many industries were developed, mostly to strengthen military power.

You have a point about Austria, they wouldn't be a bad option for another civilization. The Mongols would be pretty cool too. Dumb question, but is the Spanish in the game. They would be great to add if they weren't. Their unique unit could be the Conquistador. (Sorry about my stupidity, I just got the game tonight.)

I don't know really anything about Germany before the 1900's but I think their importance then is enough to put them in the game.

During Elizabeths reign England was actually quite weak (why else would the spanish be so confident in Invading?)

What happened during Elizabeths reign was the FOUNDATIONS (nothing more) of future greatness and Empire were laid.

But BRITAIN only became a true power and Empire in the 18th Century - After the union of Scotand and England to form the United Kingdom.

I suspect by England fireaxis meant Britain - but displayed a rather unfortantate but common misconcept by believing England was Britain and represents Britain.

why panzers at all?
the PZ1 was a training tank (2*7.92mm MGs!), the mk 2 wasn't much better. mk 3 and the Czech 35 & 38 were decent, mk 4 saw service more or less throughout WW2, the mk 5 was a copy of the T-34, but only about 5,000 were produced. mk 6 was equiv to 4 M4's but that was it. none of them i consider "fast", compared to say T-34, BT-7 or M4.
Better to get either U-boat submarines with Hide Country flag option, or Me 262, first Jet Fighter to enter service to replace standard fighters IMO.

I think the reason for it being a Panzer and not those other tanks you mentioned is becuase people know what a panzer is but not what a Mk3 is. Well most ppl. Many who did not study WW2 mostlikely have heard of a Panzer, its just a type of tank that ppl who aren't military buffs know.

Originally posted by elfstorm
During Elizabeths reign England was actually quite weak (why else would the spanish be so confident in Invading?)

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The English were VERY weak. They have had some wars against the Dutch and they lost about all of it exept the one in colonial Holland (the current New York\New Amsterdam and surroundings) and even that one would be lost in the long run, but Holland traded their claim on it for Surinam. In this time of war Holland even invaded some pieces of England, and they were the last to do so.

Note that Holland in that time had no more than about 3 million inhabitants (I suspect the numbers are even smaller) and England much much more.

And about Germany:

This may seem very very cruel, but the Germans have a very long military and political tradition. The were a force in Roman times, in Middle Ages, in Napeontic times and the World Wars. AND they have the biggest 'body count' of all the countries in the world I guess, with the holocaust and all. This gives them the right to be in Civ3. They also represent te smaller countries in the area like Austria, Switzerland, Holland, Poland, and the Czechs

(And if some stupid American fellow will come and tell me to shut up because the holocaust is to terrifying: Shut up, what about Atomic Bombs, what about Vietnam, what about Servia, what about the Taliban.)

I think the point was that there was no "Germany" in 'Napeontic' times (I'll assume Napoleon's times).

There was a Prussia and an Austria and a Saxony and a Hanover and a bunch of other little states. If I remember correctly, Prussia and Austria mainly served as punching bags for Napoleon. Seems like Napoleon invaded Austria and beat it easily, then invaded Prussia and beat it easily, then repeated both again. Neither was exactly a 'power' compared to Napoleon. Only when the Russians added their armies did either even pose a small threat.

Prussia was such a wimp at that time that it took a revolt by some of its Generals to get the king of Prussia to even stand up to Napoleon in 1813, when the Russians were already chasing him back across Europe.

And as to Saxony and the others, they all bowed down to Napoleon and asked which body part Napoleon wanted kissed when he showed up. What was Napoleon's little puppet state called, "Confederation of the Rhine" or something like that?

Since no human civilization has been a power since 4000 BC, its a given in a game like this that no civilization can really be accurately represented. Having both the Iroquois and the Americans in the game at the same time is a point along the same lines

:crazyeyes Well I suppose one could say that Germany was an empire till the demise of the second Reich



[dance] [dance]

Uto3 agreed with me above about England being weak, then mentioned how they lost four trade wars with the Dutch as confirmation.

However I was talking about Elizabeth's England in the sixteenth century, the Dutch wars occured in the Seventeenth. England by this time had sorted herself out and was one of the most powerful nations in Europe and on course to becoming a world power. The English at the time would dispute they lost to the Dutch four times as for a number of those wars they ALSO claimed victory.

However there is no shame in losing the Dutch in the Seventeenth century as they were the richest and possibly the most powerful nation in Europe. Their population was only about 1 million - but Englands wasn't much more than 4 million : everyone had small populations in those days. In 1688 William of Orange (a Dutch prince) invaded Britain and conquered the entire country - England, Scotland and Ireland. He is the only man ever to do this.

stonewall says there was no Germany during Napoleonic times - true. But there was the Holy Roman Empire which comprised all the states he metioned and more. The Prussians and Austrians were not weak, they were exceptionally powerful - but (oh this is dificult to explain quickly) Napoleon was a truly incredible military genius and he had the power of revolutionary France at his disposal - quite a combination. (I guess in Civ3 terms France had Nationalism and Democracy - the rest didn't).

He also says that by the time the Prussians decided to stand up to him the Russians were chasing him across Europe????
Really? I could have sworn the Prussians and the Austrians had more men present at the Battle of the Nations (Leipzig 1813) than the Russians. In fact towards the end the Austrians were thought to have the best army - Napoleon himself was impressed with them at Wagram (1809).

Finally, Yes Saxony and others did suck up to Napoleon - but so what? wouldn't you? Centuries of being bullied by the Austrians, then this guys appears - beats them - wants to be your friend and gives you lots of extra territory! You'd be mad to bite the hand that feeds you. Remember German nationalism didn't exist back then so no-one worried about helping the French over other German Kingdoms.

I wonder if we can establish what is a "civilization" and what is an "empire"?

Civilizations tend to endure, while empires rise and fall; some empires arise from the ruins of a predecessor; others arise when "barbarians" conquer an empire and then take on the culture and technology. An example of the 1st is the Aztecs who succeeded the Mayans (I think - I may have my empires mixed up); and of the 2nd is the Mongols who conquered the Arab/Muslim empire and adopted their religion and culture.

The Germans were "barbarians" at the time of the Romans (though they had iron) and unlike Gaul (now France) and Britain were never conquered. Civilization could be said to start with conversion to Christianity in the 8th C, and this was when the 1st German Empire (the Holy Roman Empire) was founded. This broke up eventually and the remains were absorbed into the Prussian and Austrian empires; in the 19th Prussia established a military machine which enabled it to establish a pan-German empire that lasted in effect until 1945 when it was defeated by the American and Russian (Soviet) empires.

A cynic might claim that Europe is now a de-facto empire dominated by Germany economically, and now with a single currency with interest rates set by a central bank on the German model.

As far as civilization is concerned Europe and the USA are part of a broad Western civilization based on secularism, rationalism, technology, and the English (or should that be American) language with military dominance over the entire world. In civ3 terms that makes a "domination" and "culture" victory without a doubt. Is Islamic Fundamentalism the start of a rival civilization or empire? Look where the "oil" strategic resource is in this world! And if they succeed in overthrowing Pakistan, they will have nukes!

Originally posted by elfstorm
However there is no shame in losing the Dutch in the Seventeenth century as they were the richest and possibly the most powerful nation in Europe. Their population was only about 1 million - but Englands wasn't much more than 4 million : everyone had small populations in those days. In 1688 William of Orange (a Dutch prince) invaded Britain and conquered the entire country - England, Scotland and Ireland. He is the only man ever to do this.

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William of Orange jointly took the throne from his father-in-law following the 'glorious revolution'. It wasn't really an invasion.

Originally posted by Uto3

Note that Holland in that time had no more than about 3 million inhabitants (I suspect the numbers are even smaller) and England much much more.

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England's population at the time of Elizabeth was approximately 3 million.

To say England at this time were VERY weak is incorrect, but to say England was not a major European power would be more accurate.

If we are talking strictly about England (rather than Britain) - high points for England as a power were during the reigns of Henry II (Angevin Empire) in the 12th Century, Edward III in the 14th Century and Henry V in the 15th Century. Elizabeth, as said above is more the figurehead for the beginnings of England's rise as a power along with the other British nations.

Germany: Germany as a country is a fairly young polital power - but then so is the US. However, the German and Austrian states have always had a major influence in Europe in various guises.

For me, the most glaring Civ's that are missing are The Turks (Ottoman) and The Spanish. I think the Mongolian empire is also a worthy shout.