England the new best Civ?

As it stands, England is amongst the weaker civs in the game, but several things in G&Ks seem to propel them to never before seen heights.

1. Ships can now capture coastal cities. This is a huge plus for England, with their faster ships (and better frigate), they can dominate the sea - and now use that for something. No matter how much the AI improves, it is unlikely to be a credible threat at sea, so an English player might be able to hit and run and capture cities with relative ease.
   
2. Gatling guns and machine guns. Longbows can upgrade to these, and keep the +1 range promotion. While going from 2 to 3 range is a nice bonus, going from 1 to 2 is a complete game changer. English Gatling and Machine guns will be able to wreck utter havoc. The main weakness these units have (from what we've seen) is the difficulty they have in getting close enough to the enemy to set up and then fire. By tripling the number of tiles they can reach, the English should have an enormous advantage with these.
   
3. +1 Spy to UA. As if this wasn't enough, they get a direct improvement. Hard to judge how good this will be, but you really can't complain with an extra spy.

nah, not the new 'best', but better than before definitely.

The extra spy is now a contested feature addition. Some reports indicate that it might have been removed. But still, England is getting a major boost from this expansion.

Lord Olleus said:

+1 Spy to UA. As if this wasn't enough, they get a direct improvement. Hard to judge how good this will be, but you really can't complain with an extra spy.

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The spy was removed. But England will be much better anyway.
Edit: Somebody was faster...

Even then, hard to be best Civ when you're still reliant on there being large amounts of water on the map, Don't think Lizzy's going to be storming the great plains any time soon

Beefie said:

Even then, hard to be best Civ when you're still reliant on there being large amounts of water on the map, Don't think Lizzy's going to be storming the great plains any time soon

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I disagree, if the machine gun is as good as we think it is (from comparing the few stats we know), and the gatling gun likewise, I really think that England will dominate. Its like having 3UU instead of 1. Longbows, which you should have plenty of anyway as they are great and come late enough that production is good, will give you killer gatlings and MGs

Machine guns can attack with the same power as contemporary melee units, but without taking damage as they are ranged. In defence, they also hold up as well as melee units. In short, MGs will beat just about anything in attrition. They're weakness is they're very short ranged, meaning that they have to be on the front line replacing infantry/tanks which can propel an attack forward faster as they don't have to set up.

English MGs completely change that. You can place them in the second rank, suddenly doubling the firepower of your army (either with two rows of them, or with infantry/tanks in the front row). It also allows you to have an MG set up and then "leap frog" over it with another MG, who is then covered from all sides by the previous one.

In defence,to create a chain of MGs (with ZoC), you need one every 3 tiles. An enemy unit approaching this line can be hit 1-2, for one turn. English MGs can hit them 1-2 for the first turn, and 2-3 times for the second turn.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the longbowman will be much better upgraded than as its basic unit, a bit like the Jaguar Warrior is more valuable as a swordsman.

I dont think that England will be able to maintain the +1 range from longbows to gatling and MG.

I don't disagree with you that England will now be much more competitive, especially with the greater importance of navies. But I'm just arguing that as you say they will "dominate" on a map that nullifies their UA and one of their UUs, on the strength of the other UU then on any other map type with water every other Civ may as pack their bags cause England have it in the bag!
For the sake of balance this can't be true.

aziantuntija said:

I dont think that England will be able to maintain the +1 range from longbows to gatling and MG.

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It's currently a promotion. They'd have to change the Longbow to prevent it from staying with the unit after promotion.

aziantuntija said:

I dont think that England will be able to maintain the +1 range from longbows to gatling and MG.

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That could be true, but would be silly IMHO.

Certainly, with the improvements to the importance of naval warfare and the potential to upgrade England's unique ground unit into something that makes sense (and can at least retain the promotions won via experience), England will have vastly improved.

Beefie said:

I don't disagree with you that England will now be much more competitive, especially with the greater importance of navies. But I'm just arguing that as you say they will "dominate" on a map that nullifies their UA and one of their UUs, on the strength of the other UU then on any other map type with water every other Civ may as pack their bags cause England have it in the bag!
For the sake of balance this can't be true.

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I agree with what you're saying, but my entire point is that England might be hugely overpowered. Saying that they can't be overpowered or it wouldn't be balanced isn't an argument for them not being overpowered; it's simply stating that you don't want them to be.

aziantuntija said:

I dont think that England will be able to maintain the +1 range from longbows to gatling and MG.

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Perhaps those units should stick to a one hex range even for the English. The thing that would be interesting is the English player to keep balance, should decide whether they want to have an advantage in the early game or the late game. If they choose the +1 range for their longbows, then they should lose the promotion when they upgrade to the gatling gun. If they want a more powerful gatling then they should choose a different promotion for their longbows which will benefit the gatling gun in the late game. This would keep the British from keeping an unfair range advantage in the later game. However, they have the potential for upgrading to better MGs. Besides the Gatling is not a supposed to be a two hex ranged weapon, if they are going to do the range thing add a trench mortar team and have the longbow upgrade to that. Then later the trench mortar can upgrade to mortar. Damn English and their ranged weapons!

I belive there isnt a civ wich would be able to hold on to its UU's unique ability after it has been upgraded to something else, and I dont think that England is going to be an exception in this matter.

That said I think they should propably change the longbows ability.

Why? Because England obviously cannot promote the +1 extra range to its longbow unit because it allready has that promotion. England also cannot maintain its UU's unique ability after upgrading because neither cant anyone else, so that wouldnt be fair. If this is the case, then all the other civs actually can upgrade their crosbowman (longbowman) to get the +1 extra range and still maintain that promotion after the upgrade, but England would not be able to do that.

Or they might just remove the extra range promotion from all the units after upgrading to gatling/MG. Anyway, I still belive that England cannot maintain its UU's unique ability after upgrading, because neither cant anyone else.

aziantuntija said:

I belive there isnt a civ wich would be able to hold on to its UU's unique ability after it has been upgraded to something else, and I dont think that England is going to be an exception in this matter.

That said I think they should propably change the longbows ability.

Why? Because England obviously cannot promote the +1 extra range to its longbow unit because it allready has that promotion. England also cannot maintain its UU's unique ability after upgrading because neither cant anyone else, so that wouldnt be fair. If this is the case, then all the other civs actually can upgrade their crosbowman (longbowman) to get the +1 extra range and still maintain that promotion after the upgrade, but England would not be able to do that.

Or they might just remove the extra range promotion from all the units after upgrading to gatling/MG. Anyway, I still belive that England cannot maintain its UU's unique ability after upgrading, because neither cant anyone else.

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Yep, this makes sense I agree. Why give the English such an unfair advantage in more than one era, that makes no sense anyway. The longbow should have its day and then go by the wayside, just like any other UU.

Even with an extra spy they still would not be as overpowered as babylon for example

aziantuntija said:

I belive there isnt a civ wich would be able to hold on to its UU's unique ability after it has been upgraded to something else, and I dont think that England is going to be an exception in this matter.

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America, Aztecs, Polynesia, Persia, Ottomans, should I go on?

Louis XXIV said:

America, Aztecs, Polynesia, Persia, Ottomans, should I go on?

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So you feel that a gatling gun should have the same range as artillery???

Louis XXIV said:

America, Aztecs, Polynesia, Persia, Ottomans, should I go on?

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Really!? So those civs can actually benefit from their UU's unique ability basicly trough out the game but some others cannot? Oh man thats just horrible design.

Oh well, if they arent interested about such a "small" detail then maybe England just should have gatlings and MG's with +1 extra range .

aziantuntija said:

Really!? So those civs can actually benefit from their UU's unique ability basicly trough out the game but others cannot? Oh man thats just horrible design.

Oh well, if they arent interested about those things then maybe England just should have gatlings and MG's with +1 extra range .

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Actually most civs UU's do. the only exceptions I can think of are the mounted archer units.

nokmirt said:

So you feel that a gatling gun should have the same range as artillery???

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For starters, it won't have the same range, it'll have a range of two. I'm also not commenting on what it should be, just that, unless they change the Longbowmen, its ability of +1 range will continue with future units.

For those who want to know. Any unit with a promotion gets to keep it. Things where it's just a stronger unit (example, Hoplite) don't get to keep it. But benefits transfer.