SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Sun Tzu Wu said:
Since we now have a solid plan for building The United Nations in a single turn, I would like the team to consider completing Gunpowder right now, and research mass media while drafting 15 Musketman in 2t. We can finish mass media in another 7t or maybe squeeze it into 6t via building Research, so The United Nations can be completed in the last turn of this GA, in case we might lose The Taj Mahal (ETA t180 via my recently posted plan).

I also believe that sending at least three Knights with Combat 2 Pinch Amphibious may give us the about the same odds versus the Wizard as Cuirrassiers with Combat 2 Amphibious. Pinch should give our Knights a significant advantage against the wizard (improving our odds significantly over the current 97% overall) and doesn't need Military Tradition.

Sun Tzu Wu
Click to expand...


Heh, I too considered Gunpowder now that we can probably build the UN in one turn. However, with the reduced teching rate from leaving Bureaucracy for 5 turns followed by leaving Representation, I don't think we have the research rate to do both Gunpowder and Mass Media in 8 turns. We need about 500 gold for rush buying galleons I think, which will eat about half our trade mission. We should have just enough gold to do that and tech Mass Media. Also, by taking 8 turns to tech Mass Media, we don't have to sacrifice production to achieve that pace.

Sure, Gunpowder would fix our Castle Problem, but it would only grant us 9 drafted muskets. To rush buy the galleons we need to switch civics T178, and to do that we need to switch to Nationalism + Economics T173.

Maybe the Knights who reach the Wizard can get a 4th pinch promo from the Great General instead of our galleons. We should have Gunpowder by then. I think we have to be in our own city to upgrade to Curaissers, so I don't think that will happen in time.
 
Sun Tzu Wu said:
The plan will use up Stone City's entire Granary (or nearly so on the final turn).

The plan adjusts the Base Hammers each turn to be a multiple of four to optimize Forge output.

The Plan switches the 11th citizen now on a Grassland Farm:

  • t173: Plains Farm (2F2H2C) - Base Hammers = 38 Organic + 10 Overflow x 2.25 -> 108H and 23/42F -> 20/42F
  • t174: Grassland Farm (3F) - Base Hammers = 36 x 2.25 -> 81H and 20/42F -> 18/42F
  • t175: Grassland Farm (3F) - Base Hammers = 36 x 2.25 -> 81H and 18/42F -> 16/42F
  • t176: Grassland Farm (3F) - Base Hammers = 36 x 2.25 -> 81H and 16/42F -> 14/42F
  • t177: Grassland Farm (3F) - Base Hammers = 36 x 2.25 -> 81H and 14/42F -> 12/42F
  • t178: Grassland Workshop (1F4H) - Base Hammers = 40 x 2.25 -> 90H and 12/42F -> 08/42F
  • t179: Grassland Workshop (1F4H) - Base Hammers = 40 x 2.25 -> 90H and 08/42F -> 04/42F
  • t180: Grassland Workshop (1F4H) - Base Hammers = 40 x 2.25 -> 90H and 04/42F -> 00/42F
This plan produces 706 Hammers in 8 turns. In the last turn, the Plains Farm (2F2H2C) can be worked instead:

  • t180: Plains Farm (2F2H2C) - Base Hammers = 38 x 2.25 -> 85H and 04/42F -> 01/42F
With this alternative final turn, the plan produces 701 Hammers in 8 turns. Saving 1F costs us 5H we don't need, but they are Marble inflated Hammers, so they worth only 2-3 normal Hammers.

Sun Tzu Wu
Click to expand...

I tried this out on my spreadsheet, which agreed with all the hammer outputs except the final total. I don't think this plan could switch off to the plains farm on the last turn.

However, we should be using the idea bcool suggested a few posts before this one, of swapping the gold to Silver and getting a Gworkshop back. This returns more food and hammers than the Gmine, breaks even on beakers, and sets up better for growth in Stone after Taj. Now the last population shuffles between 3 turns on the gold, 1 on plains farm and 4 on grass farm. It ends with four more food in the box, and I estimate that is just enough to secure two growths in Stone after Taj. I have details on my spreadsheet which I'll share when I've sorted out some other stuff.
 
OK, I've worked up a synchronized plan for the last 16 turns, assuming 8 turns until MM, for our core cities:
  • Washington (treb, start knight, treb, finish knight, double-overflow into 1-turn UN complete T182),
  • Stone (Taj T181 into growth),
  • GPfarm (max merchants for the GMerchant, then max scientists but switching two scientists off to squeeze out the settler in time for it to grow to size 4 for the vote, then growth), and
  • River City (settle T180, buy granary T181, steal river sheep from Washington, then rice farm from Stone, then FPfarm from GPfarm, then oasis)
PDF plan of the above is attached. I've emailed the underlying spreadsheet to frogdude off-forum. Washington will want its other plains farm finished.

We don't have to build wealth after things finish, but it's hard to see anything else being useful. We'll plan to rush-buy whatever looks useful in our cities at the front.
 

Attachments

  • T173 to end city micro.pdf
    72.1 KB · Views: 39
bcool said:
Boats[/B]
Boats have a lot of uses, and I'd rather have too many than too few. We might galleon chain military units. Or we might need to get a spy across the map asap. Those cities I suggested building boats are not going to make the difference in the war with the units they might build for us. The boats could make a critical difference in getting a spy to the right AI in time. Or at the very least open up possibilities for stealing a few cities from Ragnar late.
Click to expand...
Another possibility is also building some wealth/research in some of those cities.
 
frogdude said:
Another possibility is also building some wealth/research in some of those cities.
Click to expand...

wealth/research

Or spies

It is nice to have spies in multiple cities of the AI we hope to vote for us as insurance. they would be used to switch them back to taoism or out of free religion if necessary. I'd like to have at least 2 spies in 2 (3 if possible) different cities of Gandhi, Genghis, Elizabeth, and Monty if at all possible by T182 so that we have 5 turns of stationary bonus by T187.

These spies should be in different cities so as to avoid detection better.
 
mabraham said:
I think it is better to move our airships in Isengard up to the center of the action (Madurai and Ayodya) this turn than it is to bomb siege units that will likely die to flanking attacks anyway. Bomb with the 3 in Madurai so long as they're hitting non-siege units. A strike on Ragnar's laggard knight is also sound.
Click to expand...
I wasn't bombing any siege in my plan, I was hitting the couple of healed units in his stack (sword+somethingelseIcantrememberandtoolazytogolook)

mabraham said:
I'm keen to hit Patali because it doesn't have a castle, and when you capture a city you get a turn or two of grace before their culture from other cities re-expands. We'll have vision on those side cities and we may well be able to use knights on their roads to capture a second city immediately (maybe even Bombay - I expect the desert iron will have no culture on it for a turn or two, and Bombay has about two maces defending). I'm expecting that defending Patali will be a formality - Asoka has basically no troops left.

I like the general approach in bc's plan.
Click to expand...
I now agree with you guys. My approach is more conservative, but in order to get our conquest done in time, we will need to open up the front.

mabraham said:
As above, I think there is a window now to move the airships in Isengard up to the front where they can be more useful for longer.
Click to expand...
I'll move them if you like, but we'll just have to move them again in a turn or two to the Madurai fort or Patali. We'll already have 5 in position to support the Black team on Patali.
I was planning on just using those Isengard ones in the meantime to beat up on Ragnar troops in the open.
 
bcool said:
It might be hard to get Mass Media to finish at the end of T179, so it is nice to know that we can finish the UN in 1 turn with this method. That means we can ease up on building science or running scientists most likely. To finish Mass Media by the end of T180 we need to average 585 research, which seems quite doable.

I don't think we want to speed up the UN any more than finishing T181, since killing the wizard is the limiting case now. (we could do it one turn earlier but it is nice to have a backup turn for the battles with the wizard).
Click to expand...

The end game will be 7 turns after we build the UN. Possibly the victory condition gets checked only at the start of the next turn and that's the date that gets counted.
So I think we want a T182UN, for a T189 Diplomatic vote.

And that UN date is still within our current GA, so we don't even need to rely on TajMahal.
 
frogdude said:
I wasn't bombing any siege in my plan, I was hitting the couple of healed units in his stack (sword+somethingelseIcantrememberandtoolazytogolook)


I now agree with you guys. My approach is more conservative, but in order to get our conquest done in time, we will need to open up the front.


I'll move them if you like, but we'll just have to move them again in a turn or two to the Madurai fort or Patali. We'll already have 5 in position to support the Black team on Patali.
I was planning on just using those Isengard ones in the meantime to beat up on Ragnar troops in the open.
Click to expand...

Sure... I'm just thinking that somewhere like Ayodhya allows for a wider scope of operations on Ragnar... hitting Mathurai and Cimmerian.
 
mabraham continues to report turn dates that are 1 after when they actually occur.

When I say finish UN T181 I mean on T181 you look at Washington and it will finish the UN build that turn (the bar is predicted to be full at the end of T181).

So what do you mean when you say T182? If you mean it finishes at end ot T181 then we agree (which is what mabraham's spreadsheet shows)
 
Ok. I've updated the PPP a little, especially the city builds.

War plans will be largely as the bcool post

What are votes with regards to waiting a turn near Indra? I personally prefer to hit them a little now, even if some of the knights head off to join the Patali assault. I'm just a little worried that they will temporarily retreat and/or head across the river. Even healing would be inconvenient as we don't want to tie up our airships that will be wanted for some Patali action soon.
We want to finish up this fight with Ragnar, so we can free up these knights to go east.
Also, if we hit them 5-6 times right now, there would still be a couple left for some double XP next turn, so we may be able to have (some of) our cake and eat it too.

I'm off to work. I'll try to pad out the PPP some more over my lunch break, but otherwise will need to keep working on it this evening.
I can potential play more or less anytime on the weekend if the details are sufficiently agreed.
 
bcool said:
mabraham continues to report turn dates that are 1 after when they actually occur.

When I say finish UN T181 I mean on T181 you look at Washington and it will finish the UN build that turn (the bar is predicted to be full at the end of T181).

So what do you mean when you say T182? If you mean it finishes at end ot T181 then we agree (which is what mabraham's spreadsheet shows)
Click to expand...

No. I was suggesting it finishes at the end of T182. If we finish on T181, I'm not sure that the wizard killing mission has finished on time and we also lose a turn to potentially capture another city.
This does mean the spreadsheet may need to be amended, but worse case we just chuck another unit in the queue to soak up a turns worth of hammers.


Btw, does anyone know for sure whether cities in revolt still vote in elections? I have no knowledge whatsoever either way, but I thought it would be worth checking.
 
Re: finishing the UN
I suggest we work towards finishing the UN end of T181. T181 can be a stopping point. We can decide on T181 if the war is going well enough to finish the UN.

If we finish the UN end of T181 then
T182 vote for UN Secretary general (5 turns displayed until next vote)
T183 (4 turns)
T184 (3 turns)
T185 (2 tutns)
T186 (1 turn
T187 (0 turn (we hit the wizard)
T188 vote comes up (we hit the wizard again if necessary) *if our wizard attack completely fails we have the option to delay the vote ... it would suck but we could do it.
T189 the vote results come up and we win.

I still think we can finish the UN T181.

frogdude said:
No. I was suggesting it finishes at the end of T182. If we finish on T181, I'm not sure that the wizard killing mission has finished on time and we also lose a turn to potentially capture another city.
This does mean the spreadsheet may need to be amended, but worse case we just chuck another unit in the queue to soak up a turns worth of hammers.


Btw, does anyone know for sure whether cities in revolt still vote in elections? I have no knowledge whatsoever either way, but I thought it would be worth checking.
Click to expand...
 
Kaitzilla said:
Heh, I too considered Gunpowder now that we can probably build the UN in one turn. However, with the reduced teching rate from leaving Bureaucracy for 5 turns followed by leaving Representation, I don't think we have the research rate to do both Gunpowder and Mass Media in 8 turns. We need about 500 gold for rush buying galleons I think, which will eat about half our trade mission. We should have just enough gold to do that and tech Mass Media. Also, by taking 8 turns to tech Mass Media, we don't have to sacrifice production to achieve that pace.

Sure, Gunpowder would fix our Castle Problem, but it would only grant us 9 drafted muskets. To rush buy the galleons we need to switch civics T178, and to do that we need to switch to Nationalism + Economics T173.

Maybe the Knights who reach the Wizard can get a 4th pinch promo from the Great General instead of our galleons. We should have Gunpowder by then. I think we have to be in our own city to upgrade to Curaissers, so I don't think that will happen in time.
Click to expand...

On the gunpowder issue, I also don't believe we will get sufficient time to learn Gunpowder+Mass Media in time. Money will be quite tight. We're currently losing 228 (from memory) a turn and that gives us 4 turns worth of research.
We will get money from conquests/trading/begging, but we will still be losing money, and we need to come up with cold hard cash for the galleons.
As it is, depending on how much trade mission comes in for, we may need to look at turning the slider off research for a turn.

The gunpowder upgrade would also only come in time for the last 3 turns of drafting, and the power difference between musketmen and macemen isn't huge.

I'm still hoping we can trade gunpowder sometime in this turnset, but I could be dreaming.

Also on the unresolved issues: Trade away Nationalism this turn, or give away Electricity? I'm voting Nationalism as they're about to learn it anyway, but if anyone wants to advocate the electricity in order to keep one opp away from the Taj race I'm willing to listen.

As it stands at the moment, the Taj isn't critical, as we're building the UN within the current golden age (even if delayed until T182). Maybe we shouldn't even bother, and build more units instead and take more stuff off Ragnar.
 
bcool said:
Re: finishing the UN
I suggest we work towards finishing the UN end of T181. T181 can be a stopping point. We can decide on T181 if the war is going well enough to finish the UN.

If we finish the UN end of T181 then
T182 vote for UN Secretary general (5 turns displayed until next vote)
T183 (4 turns)
T184 (3 turns)
T185 (2 tutns)
T186 (1 turn
T187 (0 turn (we hit the wizard)
T188 vote comes up (we hit the wizard again if necessary) *if our wizard attack completely fails we have the option to delay the vote ... it would suck but we could do it.
T189 the vote results come up and we win.

I still think we can finish the UN T181.
Click to expand...

Delaying the UN on T181 will be inconvenient as we'll be in the midst of the hammer cascading chain, but I take the point that we can pause partway through the turnset to discuss delaying the UN by a turn (or more if I have the luck of the mabraham and the war is disastrous :cry:).

So I'll plan for T181 UN.
 
mabraham said:
Sure... I'm just thinking that somewhere like Ayodhya allows for a wider scope of operations on Ragnar... hitting Mathurai and Cimmerian.
Click to expand...

There's not much in it. Which method is best depends a little on whether Ragnar keeps dribbling healthy knights into our area and other such factors.

I'll move the Isengard blimps to Ayodhya & Madurai this turn, and the two new blimps to Ayodhya next turn.
Followed by a reevaluation of blimp location in a couple of turns when the fort & Patali become available locations. It'll will be handy to move a couple of blimps to that location, but we'll need to retain some in range to defend Indra against further incursions.

One thing we'll have to remember later when planning the last turnset, is that the war will lose large amounts of airsupport for a couple of turns while the blimps go annoy the wizard.
 
frogdude said:
No. I was suggesting it finishes at the end of T182. If we finish on T181, I'm not sure that the wizard killing mission has finished on time and we also lose a turn to potentially capture another city.
This does mean the spreadsheet may need to be amended, but worse case we just chuck another unit in the queue to soak up a turns worth of hammers.
Click to expand...

The easiest thing to do is a turn of wealth, which preserves the accumulated overflow.

frogdude said:
Btw, does anyone know for sure whether cities in revolt still vote in elections? I have no knowledge whatsoever either way, but I thought it would be worth checking.
Click to expand...

I just tested - a city mid-revolt from war capture voted for us. Also, the population that grow after we make our vote also vote for us.

My testing also confirmed the timeline - if our hammers go on the UN turn x, then we will be declared winner on x+8 and our voting population is that of turn x+8.
 
If a city is settled on turn x and has two 5-food tiles to work and can have a granary bought for it, it can get to size 3 in 7 turns and size 4 in 8 turns. This is a more efficient conversion of food into votes than trying to grow cities of around size 12 or more, in part because we get to run down granary boxes.

So at around T179-182, if the economy can sustain settler purchases (or the war goes so well we can stop building units) we should consider seriously the following sites:
  • 4N of Washington (can use rice farm from Stone (5:food:), or sheep pasture from Washington (5:food:), or floodplain farm from GPfarm)
  • 3S of GPfarm (pigs from GPfarm (6:food:), sheep pasture from Washington (5:food:), a Gfarm from GPfarm or some newly-built Gfarms)
  • 3S1E of Washington can use Washington corn farm (6:food:), or seafood (4:food:) from either of CB or Marble)

Much less plausible are a site between Sheep and Isengard (no food), or 3S of Fur (can use Fur sheep).

More important still could be a site 2S3E of Madurai (or maybe 1S3E), because it can run artist plus culture build for 2 turns and pop the borders to work its own crabs, or a corn farm from Vara after we capture Vara. This is all very well for itself, but the hidden value is that this border pop will allow some outer-ring tiles to be worked by Patali and Vara the turn that they come out of revolt. My food counting suggests that if their populations are happy (maybe we are using the culture slider at the time?), these extra tiles will stop starvation - or at least stop it sooner. Less starvation is more votes, of course.

So I think Madurai should do a 1-turn border pop (run artists if it will starve regardless; if not, build culture off tiles), start a settler, and we should chop those forests into the settler as a higher priority than finishing that jungle fort.
 
frogdude said:
On the gunpowder issue, I also don't believe we will get sufficient time to learn Gunpowder+Mass Media in time. Money will be quite tight. We're currently losing 228 (from memory) a turn and that gives us 4 turns worth of research.
We will get money from conquests/trading/begging, but we will still be losing money, and we need to come up with cold hard cash for the galleons.
As it is, depending on how much trade mission comes in for, we may need to look at turning the slider off research for a turn.
Click to expand...

I agree that things look too tight to attempt to tech Gunpowder ourselves. I am skeptical about wanting to run 0% slider. In my turn set T163-173 it was possible to float the economy from Wealth builds. Washington and Stone will not be available for this, but our effective science multiplier is such that we should seriously consider building such wealth so that we get earlier cuirassiers rather than a last CR2 treb from distant places like Phants and Silver.

frogdude said:
The gunpowder upgrade would also only come in time for the last 3 turns of drafting, and the power difference between musketmen and macemen isn't huge.
Click to expand...

Being able to ignore walls and castles is significant, but I'm not quite sure how this mechanic works.

frogdude said:
I'm still hoping we can trade gunpowder sometime in this turnset, but I could be dreaming.
Click to expand...

I'm quite hopeful of this, but we've been hoping for 10+ turns already...

frogdude said:
Also on the unresolved issues: Trade away Nationalism this turn, or give away Electricity? I'm voting Nationalism as they're about to learn it anyway, but if anyone wants to advocate the electricity in order to keep one opp away from the Taj race I'm willing to listen.

As it stands at the moment, the Taj isn't critical, as we're building the UN within the current golden age (even if delayed until T182). Maybe we shouldn't even bother, and build more units instead and take more stuff off Ragnar.
Click to expand...

I'm happy to trade Nationalism for the increased chance of getting Gunpowder sooner. Losing the Taj around T179-180 would not be a problem - the fail gold will be very welcome around then. The last Golden Age is only useful for civic switches (we have none planned) and buffing our gold output from commerce and hammers for the last few things we might squeeze out. The main bad case would be an AI popping a GEngineer and finishing the Taj very soon, but we'll still get some gold and be able to build units in Stone City instead.

The Taj is only borderline worthwhile - 700 hammers with forge and marble is 350 post-forge hammers, which is nearly four knights arriving T175/177/179/181. Those early knights could see multiple combats. Even without the golden age, we might be in a position to buy some front-line knights/cuirassiers, so it's not clear that the 120:commerce:+80:hammers:=200:gold:~67:hammers: of a knight extra that is afforded by the Golden Age after about T182 is going to make any difference for a T189 victory. Buying settlers that late is also pretty marginal. Taj made more sense when we were targetting a victory date rather later than T189.
 
bcool said:

3) Kill the wizard details

Summary
Switch to Universal Sufferage T178
Buy boats T178, T179 (expensively), T180 (expensively) (no vassalage necessary) (a GG might be able to used to upgrade our galleons and so they wouldn't have to be purchased expensively the xp from the GG could give them flanking and navigation.)
Send at least 9 knights from Isengard on T180 to arrive and board boats on the coast next to Teotihuacon on T187 (Ideally send 3 knights on T179 which will upgrade to Cuirassiers in New York and arrive to board boats)

A GG should be sent to wizard killing city if it is born and can get to Wizard killing city by T181. This will save us a lot of gold since we can use him to upgrade the galleons and probably give a few knights more experience as well and get a few upgrade to a cuirassier ideally to boot.

Details and other options
We need a minimum of 9 knights if we can't get military tradition in time. More if possible. Ideally 3 of those knights at least will be cuirassiers.

Lesser units could be built now and upgraded. So chariots, horse archers, elephants, and knights can be upgraded to cuirassiers.

Let's assume that we need to win in 17 turns.

It will take galleons 7 turns to travel from the proposed western coastal city and the wizard (however... if we use a GG here, the boats bought here could be given 4+ xp, and pick up flanking and navigation I cutting travel time down to 5 turns)

If we assume the 7 turns of travel time we need to have the boats leave on T181. (boats move 4 on T181, T182, T183, T184, T185, T186 to coast of Teotihuacon, T187 move and attack, T188 attack again if necessary) (gives 1 extra turn of battle if we need it)

It takes 4 turns for a mounted unit to travel from Isengard to New York (wizard Killing city). Or it takes 8 turns for a non mounted unit to get there.
It takes 7 turns for a mounted unit to travel from Isengard to Teotihuacon's coast. As STW points out that we can board the boats later and not in New York.
If we want to have the mounted units to upgrade in New York then it will take 8 turns for them to travel from Isengard to Teotihuacon's coast.

The last mounted unit must leave from Isengard on T180 if they don't need to be upgraded. Mounted units we expect to upgrade in New York must leave T179.

We need a minimum of 9 amphibious knights to leave Isengard on T180 (no upgrades) We would like at least 3 cuirassiers which would have to be amphibious mounted units that would leave T179 from Isengard.

We need to buy boats from New York (Wizard Killing City) on T178, T179 expensive, T180 expensive. So we much switch to Universal Sufferage on T178.
Click to expand...



Is this the latest plan? Is so, I'm not sure it works. If the units board on T187 outside Teotihuacon, then they can't attack on T187. They can hit on T188, but that doesn't leave time for a backup turn2 attack if we need it.
 
mabraham said:
Being able to ignore walls and castles is significant, but I'm not quite sure how this mechanic works.
Click to expand...


The mechanic is pretty simple. With a non-gunpowder unit attacking, you face the castle-modified city defense. In our case it would be 100%.
When a gunpowder unit is selected to attack, it faces the culture city defense, usually between 20%-60%.

A fortified longbow is usually 9 str. in a city.
A fortified longbow on a hill city is 12 str.
A fortified longbow on a hill city with 2 CG promotions is almost 15 str.
A fortified longbow on a hill city with 2 CG promotions and a castle is 21str.

A musket in the era of walls and castles routinely faces units that are between 3-6str weaker than a maceman sees. Castles also completely neutralize the dominance of City Raider III units.

An army without gunpowder is usally going to take severe losses versus castles, but with spies and blimps the loses are usually manageable until City Garrison muskets appear.
 
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