Can we table this decision? We need to see what our tech trades will tell us and discuss this before we can even get a GSpy into Gandhi's land. We don't need to commit yet, do we?
SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Can we table this decision? We need to see what our tech trades will tell us and discuss this before we can even get a GSpy into Gandhi's land. We don't need to commit yet, do we?
mabraham
Deity
That went in during my turn set, because we had a half-turn of worker output wasted while Goodyear moved cross-country. So rather than purely waste it, I wasted it in a way that could conceivably be useful if we decide we want towns in our capital... Anyway, its existence is in no way a suggestion for the future
mabraham
Deity
I agree that we want to infiltrate the western witches in a way that allows us to either scout further before deciding (if Philo seems unlikely), or trigger a GAge then (if Philo looks like a sound chance), or eventually infitrate the North (I just can't see why we'd choose to do this). That means I think we should infiltrate West Witches on T103 with the GSpy now in Stone City.
I don't think Philo is in much danger from bulbing (BTW Gandhi's second-GPerson
pool is rather full, but heavily merchant and priest). The GAge doubles all production, so if without a GAge we need 1 turn of revolt to Caste and n turns of a number of scientists to get our bulbing GScientist, then with the GAge we need n/2 turns (rounded up). It does seem that n is fairly small (haven't looked at the games for a while now), but the GAge caters to other religion and tech switches, faster HG for faster population increase (huge for Culture Bridge)mabraham
Deity
In order for WW to start the set, we do need to resolve that we don't want an immediate GAge, nor do we want to infiltrate the North first. I do definitely want to reconsider the situation after the first tech trade or two, and it's not until after then that we really commit our GSpies...
Is this a typo? If it isn't, what part of T100 is depedent upon these decisions?
mabraham
Deity
No. We don't need to decide yet what we'll do on T103, but we need to resolve something for the turns before that, since we have to start pre-positioning the Stone City GSpy for the infiltration if we were to want to infiltrate it West on T103. So we need to resolve that we don't want it to infiltrate North or do an immediate GAge with it.
If we move the GSpy to Trojan Horse City, we can still trigger the GA on T102 or 103. If we decide to infiltrate the North, we can turn around and go back to Boston. Once we get Alphabet, build a spy, arrive in Boston and sit for 5 turns, this will still take seven turns. We can get the GSpy to Boston by ~T107 if we have to turn around.
I submit that we move GSpy toward Trojan Horse City, and wait on making the GA/north infiltration decison until T102.
mabraham
Deity
Sounds good.
On T100, we should beg Monte to see if we can switch him to Slavery. Then make a message (Alt-M) saying it is OK to beg from Monte again in 25 turns.
bcool
Deity
Sometimes begging something too large has never diplo consequences. We need to test demanding the switch to slavery to make sure that it doesn't incur diplo penalties.
I personally think the odds of this begging being successful are quite nearly zero, so we definitely need to make sure that it doesn't have a negative cost for the attempt.
I'm fine with sending the GSpy towards trojan horse and debating the infiltration decision later, but the decision still will need to be made soon (next day or 2).
The decision does affect Gems production a little bit. I'm assuming we want to keep a rapid Great Scientist from Gems a possibility so I don't think we want to whip a spy here as I suggested a while back.
There are some fine details here. Do we want to finish the settler this turn or next. Optimizing this does depend on when we anticipate a GA or a revolt occuring.
For example a really rapid attempt at a great scientist would involve researching and finishing priesthood this turn T100 and so we could trade for code of laws on T101 and revolt T101... (but that would be before we knew a run at philosophy was risky or not...)
I personally think the odds of this begging being successful are quite nearly zero, so we definitely need to make sure that it doesn't have a negative cost for the attempt.
I'm fine with sending the GSpy towards trojan horse and debating the infiltration decision later, but the decision still will need to be made soon (next day or 2).
The decision does affect Gems production a little bit. I'm assuming we want to keep a rapid Great Scientist from Gems a possibility so I don't think we want to whip a spy here as I suggested a while back.
There are some fine details here. Do we want to finish the settler this turn or next. Optimizing this does depend on when we anticipate a GA or a revolt occuring.
For example a really rapid attempt at a great scientist would involve researching and finishing priesthood this turn T100 and so we could trade for code of laws on T101 and revolt T101... (but that would be before we knew a run at philosophy was risky or not...)
bcool
Deity
This isn't quite true since we are philosophical. The Golden Age adds another 100% bonus on top of our current 100% bonus. So during a GA we get 3 times the normal
and regularly get 2 times the normal So the difference between GA and non-GA isn't quite as high (n+1)-(n/2)
Good point about priesthood.
The decision we need to make is to whom do we trade Aesthetics. Then we make the trade and brainstorm before making any other moves.
Walter_Wolf
King
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- 806
Units:
The exploring workboats continue their yourney. The one N of Isengard follows the isthmus, and gets back towards the GP farm when it reaches the "bridge". The northern WB explores the Nothern's witches coast heading West. The WB 1S1E of Marble site moves to Culture bridge's clams, and the one produced in Gems improves the crabs on T100. The WB produced in Stone city will later be used to improve the future marble site crabs.
The 1st great spy heads into the western witches culture moving 1N1W. The 2nd towards Trojan horse.
The wounded archer heals.
Tech trading / research:
T100 Trade Aesthetics to the Northern witches for Alphabet, Politheism and Meditation. (I saw I typed incorrect. I was thinking of the Northern witches in my previous PPP, not Western).
T100 (same turn) Research Priesthood at minimum cost possible (slider).
T101 check tech trading options
Cities/worker actions
Washington
T100 3 pop whip Aqueduct. Working sheep, corn and cow.
T101 start HG; growth, add grassland mine.
Hoover
T100 chop the forest into the aqueduct to overflow into the HG
Stone city
T100 build worker, working gold, rice,stone, crabs, oasis and 2 scientists
Gems city
T100 Build spy, working wheat, gems, deer, crabs, grass mine and 2 scientists.
Fritz
T100 move to grass hill 1S of Trojan horse to start a road T101
GP farm
T100 Build research, working pigs, fish, clams, FP farm, grassland farm and 2 scientists
Goodyear
T100 finish farm
Isengard
T100 build chariot, working fish, horse, sheep
Karl
T100 finish road
Yamamoto
T100 finish road
Silver city
T100 Build library, switch fish to pigs
Stevenson
T100 finish pig pasture
Culture bridge city
T100 build granary, switch grass mine to improved crabs
The exploring workboats continue their yourney. The one N of Isengard follows the isthmus, and gets back towards the GP farm when it reaches the "bridge". The northern WB explores the Nothern's witches coast heading West. The WB 1S1E of Marble site moves to Culture bridge's clams, and the one produced in Gems improves the crabs on T100. The WB produced in Stone city will later be used to improve the future marble site crabs.
The 1st great spy heads into the western witches culture moving 1N1W. The 2nd towards Trojan horse.
The wounded archer heals.
Tech trading / research:
T100 Trade Aesthetics to the Northern witches for Alphabet, Politheism and Meditation. (I saw I typed incorrect. I was thinking of the Northern witches in my previous PPP, not Western).
T100 (same turn) Research Priesthood at minimum cost possible (slider).
T101 check tech trading options
Cities/worker actions
Washington
T100 3 pop whip Aqueduct. Working sheep, corn and cow.
T101 start HG; growth, add grassland mine.
Hoover
T100 chop the forest into the aqueduct to overflow into the HG
Stone city
T100 build worker, working gold, rice,stone, crabs, oasis and 2 scientists
Gems city
T100 Build spy, working wheat, gems, deer, crabs, grass mine and 2 scientists.
Fritz
T100 move to grass hill 1S of Trojan horse to start a road T101
GP farm
T100 Build research, working pigs, fish, clams, FP farm, grassland farm and 2 scientists
Goodyear
T100 finish farm
Isengard
T100 build chariot, working fish, horse, sheep
Karl
T100 finish road
Yamamoto
T100 finish road
Silver city
T100 Build library, switch fish to pigs
Stevenson
T100 finish pig pasture
Culture bridge city
T100 build granary, switch grass mine to improved crabs
Here is a test from our test game at 475 BC:
Spoiler :
The first line of the game log shows Mansa's Random personality accepted our beg at pleased!
I also tested a beg for Education with zero beakers invested from Mansa. I begged about 20 times and never got a negative diplo.
In my games, I beg often and I have never gotten a diplo hit from begging from a Pleased AI.
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
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Weird. Never heard of such diplo malus at pleased. Are you talking hidden modifier...?
What about begging priesthood and Monotheism. I am doubtful for monotheism, but priesthood is feasible...moreover may monotheism will package with CoL for the third trade. Will someone if it is an option or not?
EDIT:
Haven't seen this:
I think I glimpse the position.
I think we need to worry about Elizabeth, Shaka or Monte bulbing Philosophy.
Elizabeth has the philosophical trait, she has no state religion, no wonders and no possibility for GP points other than GS points. If she gets CoL, she can bulb Philosophy, otherwise it is compass or an Academy. Considering she has the financial trait, she may build an academy.
Gandhi got a Great Engineer that went to the ToA. Then he got a Great Merchant. He now has two great merchent buildings in Dehli, the ToA free preist, possibly a GE and multiple GS/GM/GA points. This GPP dilution decreases the likelihood of a GS.
Monte built the Oracle, so he may get a GP, especially if he has a temple. He may be runnning a GE or multiple GS/GM/GA. He is probably due for a GP soon, which could be a GS. Hopefully he is pushing for a GP for the Kashi Vishwanath.
Shaka has no GP wonders, but probably has a temple and library. He will hopefully run Priest specialists to get a GP for the Dai Miao.
Mansa most likely got the GP which came from Stonehenge.
Neither Asoka or Ragnar are in CS, so they don't likely have CoL, especially since someone else beat them to CoL. Asoka is probably more likely to pursue Theology, but probably isn't generating any GP points other the two GS from a library. They probably are not going to get to Philosophy first.
Elizabeth has the philosophical trait, she has no state religion, no wonders and no possibility for GP points other than GS points. If she gets CoL, she can bulb Philosophy, otherwise it is compass or an Academy. Considering she has the financial trait, she may build an academy.
Gandhi got a Great Engineer that went to the ToA. Then he got a Great Merchant. He now has two great merchent buildings in Dehli, the ToA free preist, possibly a GE and multiple GS/GM/GA points. This GPP dilution decreases the likelihood of a GS.
Monte built the Oracle, so he may get a GP, especially if he has a temple. He may be runnning a GE or multiple GS/GM/GA. He is probably due for a GP soon, which could be a GS. Hopefully he is pushing for a GP for the Kashi Vishwanath.
Shaka has no GP wonders, but probably has a temple and library. He will hopefully run Priest specialists to get a GP for the Dai Miao.
Mansa most likely got the GP which came from Stonehenge.
Neither Asoka or Ragnar are in CS, so they don't likely have CoL, especially since someone else beat them to CoL. Asoka is probably more likely to pursue Theology, but probably isn't generating any GP points other the two GS from a library. They probably are not going to get to Philosophy first.
Weird. Never heard of such diplo malus at pleased. Are you talking hidden modifier...?
What about begging priesthood and Monotheism. I am doubtful for monotheism, but priesthood is feasible...moreover may monotheism will package with CoL for the third trade. Will someone if it is an option or not?
A while back I did some beg testing for low cost tech begs from individuals of a team, and they were brutal. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10943815&postcount=1318) The AI wouldn't even give fishing. They would only give a tech if it was almost finished.
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
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Sorry. I missed that post. I understand now why you ignored my post.
Nevertheless, I remember I did succeed in the past a priesthood beg, but a monotheism is more expensive...so.
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
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That went in during my turn set, because we had a half-turn of worker output wasted while Goodyear moved cross-country. So rather than purely waste it, I wasted it in a way that could conceivably be useful if we decide we want towns in our capital... Anyway, its existence is in no way a suggestion for the future
I understand your point, but cottaging plain spices will give a weak tile nonetheless if not used for long term. To my point of view, another food plus few commerce is infinitely stronger than maybe just additional commerces. But I understand that move to make the worker toils like a slave.
I would like to see the F4 Tech screen before we end our turn and go to T101.
