A Guide to Civics

Krikkitone said:

From how terribly imbalanced Environmentalism is, I think it was put in to be a way for the UN to handicap stronger members (with many resources +cities) v. weaker members.

If they had some better pollution/global warming model than the current one, there might be a use for it...as is.. I think its meant as a punishment.

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how about they make all your cities grow so big so you can have enough vote by yourself to win LOL?

and OMG i have to disagree with environmentalist. there's a max number u can get with special resources.... for your city to grow over 30 or even 40, you definitely need it very much!

again. that's so cool for a UN vic. so fun when you stuff up every little gap in between your big cities to gain a little more population. taking all that coastal area no one favours early game (of course you will have to spend money to buy your little light house...)

atog said:

For representation. Can someone confirm this with me.

but i think it's more like top 5 cities in the whole world.
like if you only got 3 cities up that chart, only that 3 cities will get 3 bonus happy. not the top 5 cities within your nation.

i remember not receiving the bonus. my forth and fifth largest cities are more populated that than the other 2 largest capitals. but they lose the chart due to lack of world wonders. and they didn't receive happiness.

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I believe it is supposed to be YOUR top 5 cities

Mercantillism vs. Free Market: It seems that the key question is how much can you earn from trade route. Unfortunately it's too vague in civlopedia. Any one understands trade route?

atog said:

and OMG i have to disagree with environmentalist. there's a max number u can get with special resources.... for your city to grow over 30 or even 40, you definitely need it very much!

again. that's so cool for a UN vic. so fun when you stuff up every little gap in between your big cities to gain a little more population. taking all that coastal area no one favours early game (of course you will have to spend money to buy your little light house...)

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A city can at most work 20 tiles. Often less now, because desert cannot be used. So why grow more than 20? A city could do that to farm great people, but there is no point to do it everywhere. And, if you love health so much, future techs can give you infinite of it!

@ Representation

The "x biggest cities" thing definitly works per civ.The description puts it this way and the effect would be to small, if connected to the worlds biggest cities.The only question is why the number is not always the same.I suspect it to scale with the map size.



@ Environmentalism

Well yes, if you want to grow your cities that big it might help you.But I agree with Heroes, It doesn't really make that much sense.Perhaps one city as GP-factory, but evven then the effect is questionable - you likely pay already a lot for evry great person you go for when environmentalism arrives.So all this civic might give you then is one or two more GpP.The only situation where it might fuel a great person rush is when you have ignored them for the first part of the game.
Another possible reward could be connected to UN votes.Does anyone know if the votes are calculated after flat population points or with the number of citizien calculated out of the points (displayed below the city name, more population points means escalating number of citizien)? If it is this way, then growing your cities would really mean something.

Even if I'm not entirely convinced here, I will add this aspect to my Environmentalism summary.



@ Mercantilism vs. Free Market, trade route yield

Hmm, maybe if you have just foreign routes which yield one or two commerce.
But if the yield is 5 (maybe you can also add harbour to get even more) I would prefer the route.And probably there is not only a single foreign route per city.
Representation and wonders might chance the picture though.Heroes question hits the point, I think - it mainly depends on how big the route yield is.I have no exact formula, but it depends on the overall wealth of the city.So if you are among the ones, who like to build many and early cottages, the routes are likely better.
If you have few cottages and other commerce sources (which means that you are usually rather not in a leading position), Mercantilism might be good idea to catch up.Specialists can produce whatever you need (production, culture, money, research) and the AI often goes for you, if you are weak.So OBs and foreign trade routes might be no more big deal.

I will add this aspect, too.

Pfeffersack said:

@ Mercantilism vs. Free Market, trade route yield

Hmm, maybe if you have just foreign routes which yield one or two commerce.
But if the yield is 5 (maybe you can also add harbour to get even more) I would prefer the route.And probably there is not only a single foreign route per city.
Representation and wonders might chance the picture though.Heroes question hits the point, I think - it mainly depends on how big the route yield is.I have no exact formula, but it depends on the overall wealth of the city.So if you are among the ones, who like to build many and early cottages, the routes are likely better.
If you have few cottages and other commerce sources (which means that you are usually rather not in a leading position), Mercantilism might be good idea to catch up.Specialists can produce whatever you need (production, culture, money, research) and the AI often goes for you, if you are weak.So OBs and foreign trade routes might be no more big deal.

I will add this aspect, too.

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A key point of mercantillism is that it's great partner with representation. Every city gets a free 6 beaker scientist of 2 hammer + 3 beaker engineer. If you manage to get statue of liberty, then mercantillism + representation works even better.

So if any other market civic would compete mercantillism, it should generate or save sth. equivalent to 6 beaker per city, by itself or by combination with some other civic. State property could be better than mercantillism, partly for +1 food to watermill and workshop, so you can get the specialist back, though using a true citizen.

How is free market? I just finish a war in 1530 AD as police state + vassalage + caste system + mercantillism + organized religion, so I try several possible revolutions. Under mercantillism, every city has 2 trade route, each worth 1-2 gold, certainly not great. Change to free market, 1 city gets 3 +7 trade routes. However, most cities still run +1 or +2 trade routes. Even though corporation (after 1 turn) will add 1 trade route in every city, it still ooks not quite profitable overall.

Before revolution, 50% science with -34 gpt, F2 shows 373 beaker per turn, 460 gold revenue, civic cost 169, inflation 31% is 121, total expense 514.

Revolt to universal suffrage (well, is there any better combination for free market?) + free market: 50% sicence with +30 gpt, 388 beaker, 489 revenue, 142 civic, 479 expense.

If keep mercantillism and revolt to representation + free speech: 50% with +56 gpt, 488 (!) beaker, 490 revenue, 104 civic, 454 expense. This is the best civic I can get from 1 turn revolution in term of research.

OTOH, if revolt to universal suffrage + free speech: 50% with +27 gpt, 392 beaker, 478 revenue, 117 civic, 471 expense.

Of course, universal suffrage's strength is not in commerce but in production. But as human, what lacks is often commerce, not production. I have conquered 3 civs and own >40% land and pop, while Germany with <20% both is still more advanced in science. Certainly this has to do with my long wars under police state. Since my total production is already much higher than AIs, to catch up in science, representation + mercantillism seems the best option.

Pfeffersack said:

@ Environmentalism

Well yes, if you want to grow your cities that big it might help you.But I agree with Heroes, It doesn't really make that much sense.Perhaps one city as GP-factory, but evven then the effect is questionable - you likely pay already a lot for evry great person you go for when environmentalism arrives.So all this civic might give you then is one or two more GpP.The only situation where it might fuel a great person rush is when you have ignored them for the first part of the game.
Another possible reward could be connected to UN votes.Does anyone know if the votes are calculated after flat population points or with the number of citizien calculated out of the points (displayed below the city name, more population points means escalating number of citizien)? If it is this way, then growing your cities would really mean something.

Even if I'm not entirely convinced here, I will add this aspect to my Environmentalism summary.

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Well if the votes are calculated like that then the extra 2 pop points (~25-30 to 27-33) bonus would be significant. That is the problem, if you ARE over your health limits, then 3 extra health are needed to boost your population by 1.

The problem with using it in general to boost population is that Civic upkeep is based on population, so if you have big cities, Environmentalism will cost you a Lot.

Heroes said:

Revolt to universal suffrage (well, is there any better combination for free market?) + free market: 50% sicence with +30 gpt, 388 beaker, 489 revenue, 142 civic, 479 expense.

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To calculate it properly
you should have ALL the same other civics except those specifically used in each combination

Free Market + US, means that the Merc+ Rep should NOT have Free Speech

In any case the way to tell is the bonuses involved...like you said it is worth about 6 beakers=6 commerce

The benefit Freemarket gives is
1. Value of Foreign Trade * (N+1)-Value of Local Trade * N
where N is the number of trade routes you already have

Therefore it requires 2 things
1-Multiple trade routes
and
2-profitable Foreign trade routes (Harbors help)

or
3- a need for a non representative government civic

One other thing to recognize from your test is that the Free Market bonus is concentrated in a few large cities, which means that if those cities have lots of bonus buildings, they get even more bonus. The Merc bonus is spread out over all your cities, which means that some of it won't get the bonus from Libraries, universities, Marketplaces, Banks, etc. Because 6 extra research in both Podunk and Capital city*2 bonus is only 18 net output (6+12), wheras 2 extra commerce in Podunk and 10 extra commerce in Capital city is 22 net output...possibly helping even more with bureaucracy (although Free speech might help too depending on how trade routes are calculated)

Krikkitone said:

To calculate it properly
you should have ALL the same other civics except those specifically used in each combination

Free Market + US, means that the Merc+ Rep should NOT have Free Speech

In any case the way to tell is the bonuses involved...like you said it is worth about 6 beakers=6 commerce

The benefit Freemarket gives is
1. Value of Foreign Trade * (N+1)-Value of Local Trade * N
where N is the number of trade routes you already have

Therefore it requires 2 things
1-Multiple trade routes
and
2-profitable Foreign trade routes (Harbors help)

or
3- a need for a non representative government civic

One other thing to recognize from your test is that the Free Market bonus is concentrated in a few large cities, which means that if those cities have lots of bonus buildings, they get even more bonus. The Merc bonus is spread out over all your cities, which means that some of it won't get the bonus from Libraries, universities, Marketplaces, Banks, etc. Because 6 extra research in both Podunk and Capital city*2 bonus is only 18 net output (6+12), wheras 2 extra commerce in Podunk and 10 extra commerce in Capital city is 22 net output...possibly helping even more with bureaucracy (although Free speech might help too depending on how trade routes are calculated)

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I totally agree you points.

However, mercantillism almost demands you to adopt representation to gain synergy (unless in a bloody war, then have to take police state), and the synergy is just great. For free market, what synergy can it get? Maybe with universal suffrage, to spend money and hurry! Oh, it seems that human almost never gets extra money besides science and upgrade to rush anything ...

Both the trade route bonus from free market and beaker bonus from mercantillism are counted in base commerce, so subject to multipliers. Considering this, mercantillism + representation is even better. Suppose a city gets 4 +7 trade routes instead of 3 +2 routes, that's a gain of 22 base commerce, ~33 total output. Mercantillism + rep, a new city gets 6 beaker, a developed city gets ~9 beaker. When you have around 20 cities, this seems huge, largely outnumbers the gain of free market.

My current civic strategy for Elizabeth in a game vs. the AIs is:
1st switch: Bureaucracy + Slavery
2nd switch: Representation + Serfdom + Mercantilism (assumes Pyramids)
3rd switch: Emancipation + Free Religion
4th switch: Universal Suffrage + Free Speech + State Property

Since Bureaucracy's commerce bonus is multiplicative with other bonuses (even though its production bonus is not), it combines with Library + Academy for a rather impressive +162.5% to capital research; and Philosophical civs only need 17 scientist specialist turns to construct the capital Academy. Bureaucracy isn't so strong for non-Philosophical leaders, though -- you really do need that Academy. In the meantime, at this stage of the game I should be mostly finishing up my settling, and ready to take proper advantage of Slavery-rushing Granaries and whatever else I feel like.

Heroes has adequately explained the value of Representation + Mercantilism. I'm pretty much done with the important Slavery-rushing at this stage so I might as well pick up Serfdom simultaneously to slightly accelerate the conversion of almost all terrain to cottages. I'm in decent shape militarily since I'm able to build Macemen when 1/3 of the way to Mercantilism.

The rest is pretty self-explanatory. What better free tech to pick up with Liberalism than the ludicrously expensive Democracy?

Heroes said:

I totally agree you points.

However, mercantillism almost demands you to adopt representation to gain synergy (unless in a bloody war, then have to take police state), and the synergy is just great. For free market, what synergy can it get? Maybe with universal suffrage, to spend money and hurry! Oh, it seems that human almost never gets extra money besides science and upgrade to rush anything ...

Both the trade route bonus from free market and beaker bonus from mercantillism are counted in base commerce, so subject to multipliers. Considering this, mercantillism + representation is even better. Suppose a city gets 4 +7 trade routes instead of 3 +2 routes, that's a gain of 22 base commerce, ~33 total output. Mercantillism + rep, a new city gets 6 beaker, a developed city gets ~9 beaker. When you have around 20 cities, this seems huge, largely outnumbers the gain of free market.

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Well basically it depends on what the mechanism for calculating the value of trade routes is (as well as the method for determining what trade routes are used)

The point is the 'base bonus' in Mercantilism is the same for all cities, wheras the 'base benefit' of Free Market concentrates in cities that get better trade routes.

Basically any factor that increases trade route output tips the balance in favor of Free Market, any factors that do the opposite lead it back to Mercantilism.

Admittedly FM doesn't have any particular synergy, but that could be seen as an advantage it flexibly allows you to go with any type of Government model. If the situation is right it means that whenever you change Government civic away from representation, you should change Mercantilism to something else as well.

Krikkitone said:

Admittedly FM doesn't have any particular synergy, but that could be seen as an advantage it flexibly allows you to go with any type of Government model. If the situation is right it means that whenever you change Government civic away from representation, you should change Mercantilism to something else as well.

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Yes, I agree that when you change from representation you should change mercantillism too. But, since this combination is so great (especially if having statue of liberty), what's the motivation to change? I can only think of 2 possible reasons:

1. Bloody war, then police state. But in this case you would very possibly change free speech or bureaucracy to vassalge, and leave mercantillism intact to keep revolution 1 turn.

2. Get enough money to rush building (spaceship?), then universal suffrage. Ironically, under u.s. your city gains more production, and doesn't need rush so dearly. But even under this condition, I'm not sure whether free market is better than mercantillism. One city gets several +7 trade routes vs. every city gets a free specialist, I doubt the former to be better.

Heroes said:

Yes, I agree that when you change from representation you should change mercantillism too. But, since this combination is so great (especially if having statue of liberty), what's the motivation to change? I can only think of 2 possible reasons:

1. Bloody war, then police state. But in this case you would very possibly change free speech or bureaucracy to vassalge, and leave mercantillism intact to keep revolution 1 turn.

2. Get enough money to rush building (spaceship?), then universal suffrage. Ironically, under u.s. your city gains more production, and doesn't need rush so dearly. But even under this condition, I'm not sure whether free market is better than mercantillism. One city gets several +7 trade routes vs. every city gets a free specialist, I doubt the former to be better.

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Well unfortunately what it depends on is the calculation of trade routes, which is unknown as of yet (after all it is All of your cities that get the improved trade routes... how much improved is unknown as yet)

Heroes said:

Yes, I agree that when you change from representation you should change mercantillism too. But, since this combination is so great (especially if having statue of liberty), what's the motivation to change? I can only think of 2 possible reasons:

1. Bloody war, then police state. But in this case you would very possibly change free speech or bureaucracy to vassalge, and leave mercantillism intact to keep revolution 1 turn.

2. Get enough money to rush building (spaceship?), then universal suffrage. Ironically, under u.s. your city gains more production, and doesn't need rush so dearly. But even under this condition, I'm not sure whether free market is better than mercantillism. One city gets several +7 trade routes vs. every city gets a free specialist, I doubt the former to be better.

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My current theory is that the discovery of Communism is a logical time to switch out of Representation-Mercantilism -- by then you should have enough towns to make a Universal Suffrage-State Property (and perhaps Free Speech if you chose not to pick it up earlier) switch worthwhile.

Hmmm ... my opinion ...

1. State property seems by far not balanced : especially the problem with "distance maintenance" - both in game-play and in real history. C'mon ... be honest ! Trucks which carry supply for universities ( for example ) consume oil both in a free-market and a state-owned country !

2. Enviromentalism should be somehow allowed even before industrial era - but with the possible drawback of building industries. Otherwise it make little sense to switch to it ...

Regards

Dog of Justice said:

My current theory is that the discovery of Communism is a logical time to switch out of Representation-Mercantilism -- by then you should have enough towns to make a Universal Suffrage-State Property (and perhaps Free Speech if you chose not to pick it up earlier) switch worthwhile.

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Certainly, otherwise why research communism in the 1st place? It's a dead end tech, like fascism and democracy. I guess the true power of communism is Kremlin, which halves rush cost (for spaceship for instance). But if you don't want to rush, I guess representation + mercantillism + statue of liberty is still the strongest combination.

BTW, free speech belongs to legal system (bureaucracy, vassalage, nationhood), doesn't conflict with government or economy.

Useful guide, any idea on when it will be finished?

kobo1d said:

Useful guide, any idea on when it will be finished?

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As said in the first post this might take some time (probably until early January 2006).I'm currently very busy, likely the next update will have to wait until this or even the next weeks weekend.It will include a general section and some refining of the existing parts with all the input (Mercantilism is probably a bit underrated in my statement ATM).

Enviornmentalism does seem to suck at the point you get it. It also would only ever be useful if you were very unenvironmental which is a little wierd. My idea would be that enviornmentalism turns excess health into food. That way environmentalism is synergetic with healthiness and not unhealthiness. Also, it might make environmentalism occasionally useful. While this idea would be overpowered if you could get it early, I think at the point in the game at which you get it would be fairly balanced. Remember you would still be paying for high upkeep and not getting any of the extra commerce/savings you would get from Free Market or State Property.