Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
As far as I can see from their SVN it has no (modified) DLL components, it's all Python. DH is probably the best person to look at it as he's the Python dude around here.
However, if we did decide we needed mechanics like this I would be all for porting them to the DLL, because Python-based stuff tends to suck performance out of the game. Since I don't know what unique mechanics it provides I can't really comment on the porting process, but if we were to incorporate it's Python and play with it that would be the best start point most likly (once we get familiar with how it plays from the Python implementation we cann move it over).
What it needs now is a sponsor who feels sufficiently motivated to figure out to to merge it in (as it stands), which as mentioned above, does not appear to require any DLL changes.
The mod in the download link Hydro posted consists nearly entirely of SDK changes and next to no Python.
My current plan is to implement the mechanic as an extension of the generic property system. Plots have sources for the different nomadic yields (not the same as normal yields) which are implemented as properties and accumulate on the plot. The nomadic units can then gather them from the plots and store them in their own property object. Outcome actions can be activated that use up that yields. In addition certain units can be built with them.
It might be possible to use some of the AI logic in the mod as a base for our AI.
Oh ok. I must be blind. I checked out their SVN repository and I couldn't find any history for SDK changes (just a snapshot). I must have missed it.
What is the mechanic it implements anyway? Can anyone describe what it does?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Bumping for johny smith to see.
johny smith
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I don't remember the exact spot for the SDK changes. I don't have Civ 4 even installed. There is a very strange line in the python code, but the function comes from the Mongols mod in Warlords to make the camp change back and forth. I thought is talking to something written in the exe just for the camp. I am foggy right now just going off of memory.
The line of thought was you can produce units with the camp. As well if you have the needed tech to become a city your camp would have to sit idle to build things. If you look in the mess of the SDK I have, there may be something about prey and predator.
The idea behind it was once getting domesticated animals you would have the prey follow your camp around and that predators would try to go after the prey. So in order to be pastoral versus just hunter/gather it would be a new level in between farming and hunter/gather.
I know I am not good on the details, but at least it might give some more insight into what the hell was he smoking. I had planned different ways of getting more yields basically for the camp, and staggering it into different stages.
I am not really a programmer. I just tinker. A lot of changes in the code was group work, and the primary programmer gave up for lack of time. Anyway I love to see it work, and I hope I helped. Sorry for the dirty code.
Edit:
I have a link to better isolate the camp python code.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268624
The line of thought was you can produce units with the camp. As well if you have the needed tech to become a city your camp would have to sit idle to build things. If you look in the mess of the SDK I have, there may be something about prey and predator.
The idea behind it was once getting domesticated animals you would have the prey follow your camp around and that predators would try to go after the prey. So in order to be pastoral versus just hunter/gather it would be a new level in between farming and hunter/gather.
I know I am not good on the details, but at least it might give some more insight into what the hell was he smoking. I had planned different ways of getting more yields basically for the camp, and staggering it into different stages.
I am not really a programmer. I just tinker. A lot of changes in the code was group work, and the primary programmer gave up for lack of time. Anyway I love to see it work, and I hope I helped. Sorry for the dirty code.
Edit:
I have a link to better isolate the camp python code.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268624
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
johny smith
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Shame on you! How can you play C2C without Civ 4?
Why do I need Civ4 when there is C2C?
I need to clarify the tech city typo I did above. The camp had to be idle to build things (like a settler). I was going the route of needing a tech for a settler to be built, and then found a city from the settler at the end of messing with it. Although there is some code perhaps that has the camp settling into a city after so many turns which was leftover more or less, but is another possible way. Sorry again for not being clearer.
johny smith
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One last thing I thought I needed to say.
I had in mind of having unique improvements. So for example a cave. What is the purpose of the cave? Is a spiritual location where they speak to the gods? Is the cave a permanent city? Or is just shelter for better defense? Basically when you think of cave either you have short term occupants or long term cities like in the American Southwest. And when anything is long term that means it can build buildings.
As for things for example Stonehenge, people did not just sit at Stonehenge they came for certain ceremonies. Anyway the idea was the camp could drift around and what is on the plot what effect the type of yields thus changing how fast the production could occur for a particular unit. The area of taking in yields for the camp was planned to just one square surrounding the camp.
Now as well I thought this camp idea could be applied to space colonies, floating cities in alternate worlds. Anyway the art in the camp can be tweaked if I remember correctly to make different changes from idle to moving, but it was entirely in the nif files. I saw no way of tweaking it in the python because the code points to something mysterious in the exe.
I had in mind of having unique improvements. So for example a cave. What is the purpose of the cave? Is a spiritual location where they speak to the gods? Is the cave a permanent city? Or is just shelter for better defense? Basically when you think of cave either you have short term occupants or long term cities like in the American Southwest. And when anything is long term that means it can build buildings.
As for things for example Stonehenge, people did not just sit at Stonehenge they came for certain ceremonies. Anyway the idea was the camp could drift around and what is on the plot what effect the type of yields thus changing how fast the production could occur for a particular unit. The area of taking in yields for the camp was planned to just one square surrounding the camp.
Now as well I thought this camp idea could be applied to space colonies, floating cities in alternate worlds. Anyway the art in the camp can be tweaked if I remember correctly to make different changes from idle to moving, but it was entirely in the nif files. I saw no way of tweaking it in the python because the code points to something mysterious in the exe.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Yeah, nomadic stuff would be great for space or even lunar/mars maps. Such as mobile colonies.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@AIAndy
When do you think you can start apply this nomadic stuff using your generic property system? What needs to be done to get started on this?
When do you think you can start apply this nomadic stuff using your generic property system? What needs to be done to get started on this?
The majority of what is needed for that is already in now.
I will add a tutorial to the other thread about how to use it.
Missing things (that will be added soon):
- Costs (in properties) for outcome missions
- Limited constant source and maybe a source that has exponential growth on low value and limited growth when it gets close to some limit
- Diffusion propagator (an important propagator that I will add very soon) if we want minor hunts to spread a bit
- Conditions (for both activity of a manipulator and for the target objects of propagators, it will be in a generic form that allows you to write a kind of expression)
I would suggest to have four properties:
- Gathered food (fruit, ...)
- Minor hunts (hunting targets that are not a danger to you and common)
- Material (stone, wood, ...)
- Lore (information about the world that you can use to get beakers)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
When you say "properties" would they do all of these at the same time or would you focus on one of the 4 "modes" at a time?
The plots would produce all those at constant rates depending on the terrain/feature/bonus.
Now we can either have a focus mode that only gathers some of it or gather different amounts depending on the type of unit.
johny smith
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I am glad you guys are getting some where with this, but I really don't understand what you have already.
I will just throw out one more idea that I had a while back that I think is doable, but not necessary for the camp to work.
Promotions for the camp itself, I was thinking something like in FFH where it is like equipment. Basically just using promotions to represent what the camp has for individuals or items. For example, the camp spends a lot of time from spirit quest, and one individual because some shaman. A promotion could represent the fact that the camp carries along some wise shaman. This could apply to special tool makers, domesticating specialist, or etc. Just in turn the promotion gives the camp some extra abilities.
Anyway thought I would mention it since seeing something about focus. I thought if you did have multiple camps, you could specialize your camp in the process because the camp could have an advantage at doing something based on promotions. I do not know how the AI would treat it though.
I will just throw out one more idea that I had a while back that I think is doable, but not necessary for the camp to work.
Promotions for the camp itself, I was thinking something like in FFH where it is like equipment. Basically just using promotions to represent what the camp has for individuals or items. For example, the camp spends a lot of time from spirit quest, and one individual because some shaman. A promotion could represent the fact that the camp carries along some wise shaman. This could apply to special tool makers, domesticating specialist, or etc. Just in turn the promotion gives the camp some extra abilities.
Anyway thought I would mention it since seeing something about focus. I thought if you did have multiple camps, you could specialize your camp in the process because the camp could have an advantage at doing something based on promotions. I do not know how the AI would treat it though.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I have been looking at RoH in detail and the idea of a nomadic start. I basically came to a similar idea of implementing in C2C as suggested by DRJ on another forum, if we stick to the current tech tree.
If we stick with the tech tree as it is now then the main problem I see is that your game can end with the second encounter with a barbarian (you always win the first).
Secondary problems I see are to do with where the various nations end up settling. It is supposed to be fairly even across the map, but if the AI all "decide" to move in your direction they can end up with much more free space than you!
There are also, perhaps, two styles of nomad - wander anywhere, and wander over a known seasonal path.
Spoiler :
and 
, but he wouldn't have 
or 
yet. Every prehistoric "tech" (where the tech bar is now on top of screen) would have progress with If we stick with the tech tree as it is now then the main problem I see is that your game can end with the second encounter with a barbarian (you always win the first).
Secondary problems I see are to do with where the various nations end up settling. It is supposed to be fairly even across the map, but if the AI all "decide" to move in your direction they can end up with much more free space than you!
There are also, perhaps, two styles of nomad - wander anywhere, and wander over a known seasonal path.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Dancing Hoskuld
I think that's the risk you take being nomadic (aka picking nomadic start). It would be a risky way to start but possibly have a greater experience if you do survive it.
That's why i recommended that the nomad unit itself have a great bonus to animal units.
I think that's the risk you take being nomadic (aka picking nomadic start). It would be a risky way to start but possibly have a greater experience if you do survive it.
That's why i recommended that the nomad unit itself have a great bonus to animal units.
I believe genetic variation evidence suggests the proto-human population was down to only a few hundred to a thousand or so at one point just before the spread from Africa. Another hominid species could almost as easily have emerged as the 'winner', so the newsflash 'Neanderthal wipes out humanity' might be a quite accurate representation of the risks of the time (of course we only have one branch to view the past from, so the Anthropic principal applies)
