All Hail Catherine the true Csar of Russia. Stalin and Peter suck

jackelgull

An aberration of nature
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Dec 30, 2013
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Within the realm of impossibility
The Intro:
Well folks, last time I outlined my first contribution to this fine subsection a strategy on how to turn Portugal into a colonial power with a financial leader. Now I'm back for a new installment with Catherine the Great for her civilization of Russia.
Now the AI for this leader has often been hated for being the Cersei Lannister of the game- She sharpens her knives even as she spreads her legs for you as one person put it. But in the hands of the player she is fantastic.
Now to begin with, her traits are imperialistic plus creative which just screams for a REX the likes of which the world has never seen. I'm honestly surprised that the forums haven't declared her the uncontested queen of Domination yet. You may be saying what?! Imperialistic and creative aren't that strong.
After all these are its effects-
Imperialistic: Fifty% extra speed on the production of settlers plus 100% great general emergence.
Creative: +2 culture in cities, double production of libraries plus theatre.
Why are these traits so important? You certainly don't see veteran players hold their noses up at them and declare that using these traits is cheating or for newbies like they do with Financial. And besides imperialistic is considered one of the weaker traits especially in the early game where all the REXing happens right? After all then your production is likely to be like 2 hammers and a fifty percent increase of 2 is 3.
In fact this is wrong- imperialistic's bonus is multiplied by slavery's hammers too, so after inputting 30 hammers on marathon, a two pop whip is required for an imperialistic civ to pop out a settler as compared to a non-imperialistic civ's 3 pop whip. And creative frees your cities from the needs of culture, and cheap libraries help with early science and keeping your science from crashing as you expand.
The Strategy:
After recieving some feedback, and playtesting it, I've made some changes to this strategy-
Research a food tech first- either agriculture or animal husbandry, depending on surroundings then go for bronze working then masonry.
Your initial build should be a worker-warrior-warrior-settler. Once you get bronze working, switch to slavery and pop your settler out. The time you save will more than make up for the missed turns in anarchy. Begin pre-chopping with your first worker after bronze working in preparation for the Great Wall. While waiting build 2nd worker.
While all of this was going on, your scout should have been scouting, looking for good city sites. Once you find seven or eight, your scout has pretty much accomplished this mission- but he still has one more vital role to fulfill-goody hut popping. This will save your economy until alphabet in many cases. Three to four huts with gold will net you about five hundred gold on noble, allowing many turns of deficit research in the early game.
After masonry, it is time to begin building an economy. You have 2 excellent choices-pottery or writing. If the land you scouted for cities reveals several early commerce sources, writing is the better economic option, made even better by the fact that creative gives cheap libraries. Also scientists allow more flexibility with the slider and they mean that as long as you are making money at 0% then you are fine. If you have much cottagable land, then pottery first.
You capitol should be building the Great Wall after masonry, and your pre chopped forests should help you rush production. Shift tiles to gain as many hammers as you can.
You second city, when founded, should begin with warriors until size two, worker then whip when possible. Build warriors until size two then settler and whip. This should be the general initial build of your early cities, until writing and pottery, then which build libraries and granaries wherever you can after the workers. In many cases, you can skip granaries altogether. I have found that I don't use slavery often enough for them to be useful, though that may be bad play on my part.
By the time the GW is done it should be around the end of the 2000 BCE's and you should have two to four cities depending on how much production your second city has, and how much food. Begin cranking up the settlers- by 1000 BCE you should have seven to ten cities.
After writing and pottery head to priesthood. On noble the AI won't give you too much competition for the Oracle, and if circumstances are right then you should be able to self tech code of laws and take philosophy, if you have managed to pop meditation from a hut. Otherwise I'd recommend teching to alphabet after priesthood and taking code of laws with the Oracle. Or if you are feeling lucky, tech CoL and bulb philosophy.
Now begin the push to liberalism. You large number of cities and goody hut fueled deficit research should have you in a comfortable tech lead. I like to take a detour to Music, get the Great Library, self tech Nationalism and use liberalism for MT. From here beeline rifling and curb stomp the world with cavalry.
Oh, and you the the Great Spy points from the GW? I hope you didn't dilute them or run any other specialists, you want your first great person to be a spy and use him on an infiltrate mission to a rival who has a tech you want. Use spies to pick up techs that the AI is not willing to trade with with you for. The discounts you get will likely allow you to skip useful but out of the way techs.
 
Otherwise known as the super REX strategy

please respond with any criticisms or suggestions, and I hope this helps.

Not to appear rude,but there are too many to go into,but I,ll list a few that got to me.BW then settler at size 2 would be a good play if your totally boxed in,otherwise whip in a worker and improve some tiles and chop out some settlers if you have the forests.

Play the map-if I had deer and furs in the bfc Id be going worker first,your article makes too many assumptions.For example from your suggested invasion force we have horses and iron.

If you are going to rex in this game there is ONE tech you NEED and that's currency,not CoL,but with all this rexing your just going to kill your tech rate before you get there,but your answer is the Great wall spy...at noble the AI techs like a muppet.

A forest chop into the great wall for fail gold?no-way.

The Cossack is cavalry so you need rifling...So id be looking to Lib MT or rifling not nationalism.

Whats a woodsman spearman?

Some suggestions;The great wall has a good synagy with imperialistic leaders as you pointed out,getting the AI to fight in your own land is good,its also a great wonder for rexing-no stress from the barbarians so you can build more settlers and workers and less garrisons.

Rather than use your first spy on a inlfiltrate mission-settle him,switch all your espionage to your first target and use spys to cause city revolts.Your next spy comes along build Scotland yard-in short a spy economy to me seems the best way forward if your going domination and are going to base the GW on how to get there.
 
Not to appear rude,but there are too many to go into,but I,ll list a few that got to me.BW then settler at size 2 would be a good play if your totally boxed in,otherwise whip in a worker and improve some tiles and chop out some settlers if you have the forests.

Play the map-if I had deer and furs in the bfc Id be going worker first,your article makes too many assumptions.For example from your suggested invasion force we have horses and iron.

If you are going to rex in this game there is ONE tech you NEED and that's currency,not CoL,but with all this rexing your just going to kill your tech rate before you get there,but your answer is the Great wall spy...at noble the AI techs like a muppet.

A forest chop into the great wall for fail gold?no-way.

The Cossack is cavalry so you need rifling...So id be looking to Lib MT or rifling not nationalism.

Whats a woodsman spearman?

Some suggestions;The great wall has a good synagy with imperialistic leaders as you pointed out,getting the AI to fight in your own land is good,its also a great wonder for rexing-no stress from the barbarians so you can build more settlers and workers and less garrisons.

Rather than use your first spy on a inlfiltrate mission-settle him,switch all your espionage to your first target and use spys to cause city revolts.Your next spy comes along build Scotland yard-in short a spy economy to me seems the best way forward if your going domination and are going to base the GW on how to get there.

Nice points. Let me see if I can defend my strategy properly.
The settler at size two is so that you can get your 1st settler out as fast as possible. As Russia you don't have much to do without starting with agriculture or the wheel. So grow to size two and build your settler while researching BW. Once BW is done you should be around the right time for a one pop rush. Rarely have I needed to wait more than a couple of turns after BW for the settler. After the settler is done I grow to size 3 and then pop out workers to develop the land. What do you think those workers do after they chop out the GW. And in my other cities they build one maybe two settlers before I have them pop out workers and begin the cottage spam. I know I make it sound like there are concrete empire wide phases for worker expansion and military but it depends on the city. By the time my fifth city is plopped down I'll have already begun building infrastructure.

As for the assumptions of horse and iron, I know I shouldn't make those but I have yet to play a map where my land grab leaves me without either of those resources. If you don't have those then I suppose bring more catapults? I'm sorry I can't defend this part as having no strategic resources has never happened to me. And the deer point you mentioned-yes that might happen but deers are not a good source of food in my experience and generally provide you with about three food once hooked up, the same as an unimproved corn.

And as for the tech thing, yes both currency and CoL are important and rapid expansion will hurt your tech rate, but you know what? Since you have an abundance of cities and since you'll get a lot of them early, after writing you can convert some of their production to science, that is what I do as I cottage spam to recover economically. This allows me to keep up in the tech race and reach currency. I know it sounds like a subpar system but it works surprisingly well. I do have proof, unfortunately my game won't load properly, but I should be able to get that fixed Thursday and hopefully I can show a screenshot.

For the MT or rifling thing, I play Beyond the Sword, so Nationalism is on the way to MT therefore it helps with the Cossacks.

And for the forest chop suggestion, yeah I suppose it was a bad idea. I'll take that out from the guide.

Thank you for your input.
 
@jacklegull,the great thing about this game is there are many many ways to play it.Rex and cottage spam with catherine is one,but only if the map lets you,and as I said in your colonial Portugal post-at noble pretty much anything is possible anyway as the AI doesn't have the bonuses of higher levels.

Deer can be 4f1h same as corn improved,or a 3f3h tile same as a plains cow,depends which tile its on,either way that tile is good for spamming settlers,and its why I,d go worker first.

I play BTS,the reason I wouldn't lib nationalism is because I would self tech it to get the more expensive MT or rifling with Lib at noble level.

You havnt played enough civ if you have never started with NO strategic resources.

Anyway look forward to your screenies,why not post a game and we,ll compare,Il play it as I see it,you play it with your super rex.I,l have a go at marathon but I prefer normal if you do post a game.
 
Here is a save as promised. This is the situation in 1135 AD. I have no doubt it could be pulled off better, but the basic underlying premise of the strategy is sound. Anyways, I managed to find the strategic resources I required pretty close by.

Unfortunately I don't have any earlier saves so I don't have anything you can do. I could start a new game and we can try our various strategies, but that may be beyond the scope of the strategy article sub section.

I agree though, Civ 4 is a complex game with no right answer but still, some answers work under a lot of situations, and I believe this is one of them. But I suppose the fact that noble is so forgiving accounts for a lot of the success I have had with this strategy.
 

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@jacklegull.Nine citys by 1100ad,s?that is not super rex,and from your save it seems you captured two of them anyway.

At emporer 0ad for 13 citys is the best I can do before the economy crashes,surely you can do better than that at noble...

In your save you have more forests left than I could shake a stick at.

Enough said.

I,ll post a Catherine game in the Strategy and tips,if you like?,so we can both play through taking critism and advice.
 
Your strategy is funny. Try a Horse Archer rush with Cat, if you wanne ''Rex'' fast. 15 Cities at 1 AD with +-0 at 0% and currency in the Bag should be doable on Emperor or sometimes on Immortal.

Also Cat isn't necessarily a better leader than Peter.
 
8 cities by 1AD on huge/marathon/noble, 3 of them captured....
Sorry but this isn't very fast at all!
I agree though, Civ 4 is a complex game with no right answer but still, some answers work under a lot of situations, and I believe this is one of them. But I suppose the fact that noble is so forgiving accounts for a lot of the success I have had with this strategy.
This is an answer I suppose, but it isn't a very good one, not by a long shot!
Your right about many things working at noble, its been won with a no workers rule in force before :lol:

Things worth noting are that despite calling it a super REX the actual number of cities you have is very low. As has already been mentioned 10+ cities by 1AD isn't uncommon on standard size and speed on much higher difficulties, on huge/marathon/noble, especially with war you should be able to get much larger!

IIRC the maths has been done to blow the entire settler before worker concept out of the water. Its been found that while it lets you get a second, and perhaps a third city out faster, beyond that it falls behind and never catches up. Its probable that growing to size 2 on warriors before a settler only makes this worse!
 
This was not really my best game but it was the only one I had on me currently. And it isn't apparent but, 7 of these cities were built before 2000 bc but after that I decided to slow down because I was running 0% science and still losing money and had to switch to building science to make anything. Just a final note, thank you. I don't consider myself anything other than a decent player and I am sure that any good players above noble such as yourself will look at my posts with a mixture of amusement and pity but I am glad you guys took me seriously anyways. Now I have to fight summer lethargy to get off my butt and play and do summer work. I know that Stalin and Peter aren't bad I was just being silly.
 
This was not really my best game but it was the only one I had on me currently. And it isn't apparent but, 7 of these cities were built before 2000 bc but after that I decided to slow down because I was running 0% science and still losing money and had to switch to building science to make anything.
This is the major flaw with this idea, you get a few cities out earlier than you could otherwise but in order to do so you delay all forms of economic development so it cannot be sustained for any real length of time. At noble if you know how to grow and manage your economy effectively you can still expand at a very rapid pace, and more important maintain that expansion more or less indefinitely, well, till you run out of room anyway!
 
Peter is so much stronger than Cathy, for human players :b
Like Ghost wrote, i could build 20 cities by 1AD with all leaders..forests and slavery do not need Imp..but why would i want that?
 
And it isn't apparent but, 7 of these cities were built before 2000 bc but after that I decided to slow down because I was running 0% science and still losing money and had to switch to building science to make anything.

Seven cities before 2000 BC? If I go into the city screen for each city and hover over the city name to reveal the date each city was settled, I see that only three cities were settled before 2000 BC. Another three were settled in the next 1000 years and one was also captured in that time. As a result, I make it six cities settled and one city captured before 1000 BC on noble / marathon. Sorry @jackelgull but, as @Ghpstage points out, that's not fast at all – and more than likely the result of you (i) going warrior(s) to size two and then settler, instead of worker first when you have pigs, wheat and a whole bunch of forests to chop in the BFC and (ii) leaving way too many forests unchopped to have effectively leveraged Cathy's IMP trait.
 
I surrender. I can't defend this strategy any longer. You guys are right in that I need to think out better or just plain scrap it. I suppose I am too used to playing the Rise from Erebus modmod of Civ4 and that just altered my perspective too much. On that modmod, this is a pretty fast rate of expansion considering higher hammer costs and that having any less than two warriors per city is suicidal in the early game and even that doesn't guarantee survival from the barbarians but that is no excuse I need to get reacquainted with Beyond the Sword before posting any strategies on it. If I could I'd delete this thread but since I can't just know that I'm working on it. Once again thank you for all the comments showing just how little I truly know.
 
12 cities by 1AD or it isn't rex.

On Immortal, or if your masochistic try Deity.

You'll quickly find out that a Fin leader with GLH is better for REX. Cathy can get her cities built and borders popped fast, but on higher difficulties she cant pay for them.

Though Cre is my favorite trait, on Immortal you would be stuck at 8 cities max until you have courthouses built. Cathy of Summeria works best to alleviate this, but even just Gilgamesh or Sury with a CoL slingshot are better for their early UBs and other advantages.
 
Why is Sury good for a CoL slingshot? AFAIR, the Baray comes with Mathematics and isn't really something to write home about.

jackelgull said:
And besides imperialistic is considered one of the weaker traits especially in the early game where all the REXing happens right?
I couldn't make it past this sentence. Early game 45:hammers:/population whipping is when the IMP trait shines for me. Not that I necessarily REX because of it, but being able to 3 or, often, 2 pop whip a settler on 2nd turn is great. More turns for other important things like units and workers to work the new land. It's clutch when you spot that iron near to Julius and need to grab it quick.
 
Edited once and for all. Thank you all for being pateint with me. I don't pretend to be the best player or even the first one to think of this, but nobody else had seems to have written a comprehensive REXing guide for Russia so I thought I would write one.

Why is Sury good for a CoL slingshot? AFAIR, the Baray comes with Mathematics and isn't really something to write home about.


I couldn't make it past this sentence. Early game 45:hammers:/population whipping is when the IMP trait shines for me. Not that I necessarily REX because of it, but being able to 3 or, often, 2 pop whip a settler on 2nd turn is great. More turns for other important things like units and workers to work the new land. It's clutch when you spot that iron near to Julius and need to grab it quick.

You misunderstand- I am a big fan of imperialistic. In fact I rate it higher as an economic trait than financial in some cases- especially on Boreal maps. I know the power of slavery and use it often to push out cities as fast as I can. I would rather take the economic hit then not settle a city as early as possible. Creative's cheap libraries can migitate the low tech rate this causes because cities with alot of food and running two scientists allows more flexibility with the slider. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
 
I don't want to make you feel worse, but not building Granaries, likle said in the guide, is the biggest possible error one can make. I wonder why nobody has reacted on that sentence yet.
 
I have abandoned this guide since then. However, I find granaries to be unnecessary, especially when you have three to four, four food sources on average. I mean, you can strive to grow faster, but you would reach your happy cap too often.
 
Granaries are the most powerful buildings, every good player will tell you that. If you have problems with happiness, you need to whip larger things and acquire more resources.
 
The only right thing here is that Cathy is a great leader. But as an opponent. She trades techs very easily, has decent reseacrh rate, can declare on friendly so can be easily bribed against everyone, is easy to please because her fav civic, settles many cities to capture and capitulates extremely fast, after taking 1-2 core cities (so is not losing her reseacrh power too much making her one of the most useful vassals)


Peter is so much more powerful in players' hands. Philo+Exp eats Imp+Cre on breakfast
 
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