Stacks of Doom are great!

Yeah, great that 1UPT is fun to play, however - it kills the Civ game. Adds one plus in combat area, while many minuses in all others, so game in whole - loses.
Its mechanics just doesnt fit to STRATEGY game that focuses on building and empire. I won't list all reasons here, because there were a lot of similar threads that explained this problem already.

Whats the need for turning Civ with 1UPT into Panzer General modelled wargame? The franchise that actually didnt stand the test of time? If you really are soooo excited about 1UPT, why not to play original PG, which is definitely better wargame than Civ5 in terms of AI, challenge and possibilities? Simply, I don't understand that.

For "building empire" game to work properly, another combat mechanics is needed. Simple mechanics that resulted with SoD's in Civ4 surely isnt the top of creation. Unfortunately for devs, it should go into system that looks simple, but shouldnt be simple - with unit per tile cap, and different penalties and bonuses that should encourage player to spread his units.
 
1. Boring
If SoDs were boring, 1UPT doesn't exactly make my blood run any faster either. Both still allowed me to left-click and right-click at my leisure. Failure to click quickly enough didn't result in a 'Game Over' screen for both instances.
Then the fault is in your play style. Sorry ! Most of the people enjoy 1UPT more than SODs. :(
4. No strategy
Siege Engines in Civ V are only good for one-tile bombardment. Siege Engines in Civ IV would wreak havoc on a stack. You have to choose; multiple smaller stacks, or a large combined stack.
Siege Units in cIV were suicide units => Unrealistic & no strategy. Suicide your catapults, then follow up with rest of your stack. The one who brings more dozens of troops will win => Boring
 
Then the fault is in your play style. Sorry ! Most of the people enjoy 1UPT more than SODs. :(

I'm sorry, but you don't speak for "most people".

Siege Units in cIV were suicide units => Unrealistic & no strategy. Suicide your catapults, then follow up with rest of your stack. The one who brings more dozens of troops will win => Boring

Unrealistic =/= no strategy, as 1UPT demonstrates.

Suicide siege units are a problem, but that's not a problem with the concept of stacking, but rather the implementation.
 
What about THIS ? :thumbsdown:

That poll was not comparing SOD to 1UPT nor was it factoring in the AIs ability to handle 1UPT. Your conclusion that most people enjoy 1UPT more and SOD is not supported by that poll.

I for one am not against 1UPT but because of the limited AI, mobility issues, and scale of civ I enjoy stacking more.

The strategy between stacks and 1upt are the nearly the same; Pikeman > mounted unit, swords > pikeman, melee > siege(range). Taking up more than 1 tile does not increase the strategy of civ. It does increase tactics if you were a civIV player that only used a single stack but I usually have more than one offensive stack at the ready.
 
First SoD can be unlimited,but actually they are not.Game mechanic like maintenance directly limit them.Others like gold-research-culture-espionage slider or the Pacifism civic are factors too.
Second, people that saying stacking is unrealistic are ignorant,both in gaming and history.
AI in Civ4 is good and normal difficulty is challenging.I love to play archipelago or small continents maps and find AI capable in naval combat and invasions.Stacking BS,SB and Carriers is not a problem for AI.Great fun every time! :)
The OUPH idea looks amateurish.I didn't have any problem with SoD and didn't know that there is such thing until i browse through forums.Never find it annoying,unrealistic or bad game mechanic.
There is obviously a room for improvement and going deeper with something like logistic and supply or better army system.This was really my hopes for Civ5,but OUPH is just FAIL.
 
The common recurring arguments against SoDs I noticed in this thread are that it's boring and it contains no strategy.

I'd then like to know how 1UPT is not boring and has strategy. All I seem to see is SoD-bashing but not showing how 1UPT offers the things SoDs don't. Care to point out how 1UPT addresses the SoD limitations then?
 
Stacks of death are not that bad. Would it be possible to just limit them to 12 or 20 units?
 
CTP2 limited the size of stacks, gave penalties for over stacking, but also had a combined arms bonus if your stack had a mix of unit types. Honestly, it was a far better solution then 1UPT as you could actually play MP without it degenerating to a clickfest.
 
Stacks of Doom are great!

Different strokes for different folks, or whatever floats your boat, etc.

The fact is that different people are bound to like different system. It's largely subjective. But the chances are that the maximum number of people will be happy with a system that allows for strategic variation, a competent opponent, and most importantly, fun gameplay. Both SoDs and 1upt have drawbacks based on those criteria. But perhaps 1upt allows for more of the first and last, even if less of the second.
 
Islet said:
I'd then like to know how 1UPT is not boring and has strategy. All I seem to see is SoD-bashing but not showing how 1UPT offers the things SoDs don't. Care to point out how 1UPT addresses the SoD limitations then?
How to make and use a stack in Civ 4:

1) Pick a unit A. Preferably the current best unit you have access to (e.g. UU or a or the best counter-unit to what your opponent seems
2) Identify the counter to that unit. Pick a counter B to that counter. Spam 60% A, 40% B into a stack.
3) Throw stack at enemy stack. Game will automatically pick the best unit for you to attack with and the best unit for the defender.
4) If the defender always getting to field the counter to your attacker in every matchup is causing undue hardship, add a few siege units to your stack. Suicide siege units on enemy stack before returning to step 3.

Repeat this procedure up through air units at which point you can swap bombers in for siege units, assuming you ever reach them. Failure to maintain a single stack will make it easier for single-unit spam to overwhelm each stack individually.

Notice how little is going on once the stack is built? Stacks lead to crude attack-move meat grinder tactics. They're the bane of any RTS, and tolerating them in a TBS doesn't help the game.

For good stacks, you have to let attackers target the best thing to attack, not the worst. This means that when you field a counter to the enemy, it can actually do its job of bringing down the unit it was built to destroy, instead of just acting as a stationary speed bump because your counter can't reach its intended target. Adding multiple equipment options for units on both attack and defense lets you design counters more directly and puts more depth into the stack designing as well (e.g. GalCiv2 or AC), but I don't think it's necessary to make stacks fun as stacks worked well enough without it even in GC1 (which did have intelligent targeting for stacks).

Of course, this leads to the problem of glass cannon units being difficult to use effectively since they'll all be targeted first. 1UPT handles this effectively. If you Horseman have a path to the enemy Archers, they get to attack the Archers. You can also position your troops in a defensive arrangement to prevent your glass cannons from being attacked first and force the enemy to attack the units you want them to, but defensive lines can be flanked or a weak defensive line can be broken. You're not victim to defenders who can't defend or attackers who can't attack what they need to.
 
Care to point out how 1UPT addresses the SoD limitations then?

Good question. Good luck getting it answered. I can't think of any SoD problems 1UPT addresses that are not tainted by the fact it is only half an improvement since the AI is unable to play the game.
 
How to make and use a stack in Civ 4:

Spoiler :
1) Pick a unit A. Preferably the current best unit you have access to (e.g. UU or a or the best counter-unit to what your opponent seems
2) Identify the counter to that unit. Pick a counter B to that counter. Spam 60% A, 40% B into a stack.
3) Throw stack at enemy stack. Game will automatically pick the best unit for you to attack with and the best unit for the defender.
4) If the defender always getting to field the counter to your attacker in every matchup is causing undue hardship, add a few siege units to your stack. Suicide siege units on enemy stack before returning to step 3.
So there is indeed planning and strategy required to make a good stack to go against the opponent. As you described, you cannot just spam 100% of your current best unit, Warrior, UU or Horsemen, and expect to wallop the enemy.

If you encounter difficulty, you need to use your Siege Engines to soften the stack. So this is strategy on the part of SoD!

In fact, Soren Johnson and his team made some excellent subtle balances to SoD. If Siege Engines are causing trouble, split your stacks or place Cavalry adjacent to the catapults in the stack. The Siege Engines would be damaged by flanking and its effectiveness would be reduced subsequently. Civ IV encourages smaller varied stacks, but if you felt that your strategy would work better as a single stack, they didn't stop you either.


Repeat this procedure up through air units at which point you can swap bombers in for siege units, assuming you ever reach them. Failure to maintain a single stack will make it easier for single-unit spam to overwhelm each stack individually.
And the opponent would just counter with Fighters based in his cities? Again, it still required a mix of forces, i.e. strategy. SAMs and Mobile AA also grants an interception chance. If you have neither Air Power nor AA, then you'll just have to proceed in either smaller stacks or halt your advance altogether until you get that Air Defenses up that you so desperately need, strategic advance or strategic hold, we could choose.

Compare this to 1UPT where Air Power means nothing when you can only bombard one tile, which doesn't significantly deal the damage that the introduction of Air Power was supposed to represent.

Notice how little is going on once the stack is built? Stacks lead to crude attack-move meat grinder tactics. They're the bane of any RTS, and tolerating them in a TBS doesn't help the game.
Until your stack is reduced, of course, then you'll have to build that careful composition of units based on new realities. If you try to leave one unit behind to heal, it'll just be wiped off by the nearest cavalry.

Compare this to Civ V's 1UPT where if I encountered a force of counter-units to my frontline, the massive traffic jams of the back would prevent me from sending my counter-units where I need them most.

The consequences of 1UPT, which led to slow production times as addressed by Sulla, meant that insta-heal was provided as a promotion for 1UPT to be viable in Civ V

If anything, 1UPT resembles the meat-grinder more than SoD, where your line pushed the opponent's hex-by-hex.

For good stacks, you have to let attackers target the best thing to attack, not the worst. This means that when you field a counter to the enemy, it can actually do its job of bringing down the unit it was built to destroy, instead of just acting as a stationary speed bump because your counter can't reach its intended target. Adding multiple equipment options for units on both attack and defense lets you design counters more directly and puts more depth into the stack designing as well (e.g. GalCiv2 or AC), but I don't think it's necessary to make stacks fun as stacks worked well enough without it even in GC1 (which did have intelligent targeting for stacks).
I can agree with the Intelligent-Targeting concept, but also consider this from another point:

Why would I bother placing my weaker units into a stack when it'll be selectively targeted and destroyed anyway? I might as well place individual units in different tiles, at least it'll occupy space. 1UPT carpeting results.


In one previous Civ, Civ II, I think, stacks were destroyed once one unit lost combat. Civ IV released how broken such a system was and changed it to its current form.

If I'm in a stack, I should be able to enjoy the stack's protection, that's the basis of a stack, not a design error.


Of course, this leads to the problem of glass cannon units being difficult to use effectively since they'll all be targeted first. 1UPT handles this effectively. If you Horseman have a path to the enemy Archers, they get to attack the Archers. You can also position your troops in a defensive arrangement to prevent your glass cannons from being attacked first and force the enemy to attack the units you want them to, but defensive lines can be flanked or a weak defensive line can be broken. You're not victim to defenders who can't defend or attackers who can't attack what they need to.

Yeah, if the map was big enough a la Panzer General. Civ V, however, is not. The map sizes at Standard and lower are so small that it constrains any maneuver of units. I get more traffic jams than I get battles.

At larger maps, the game has all sorts of scaling problems and issues on top of technical unoptimization that makes the game unplayable. Large maps problems have been discussed elsewhere, if you're interested.


I have no issue with 1UPT by itself. But its implementation in Civ V is downright horrid and actually does the 1UPT concept a great disservice.
 
I just can't get it, how 1upt can be better. It's just a pure limitation. You can have 1 unit per tile in Civ4, if you want. In some cases (i.e. with threat of collateral) you are even encouraged to split forces.

Add some pre-bomber ranged bombarding in civ4, may be some more penalties for (over)stacking, some limiters for unit spam - but noooo, they have to throw everything out the window and make Traffic Jam:The Game.
 
Maktaka attacks with wall of text!


The problem people have with Civ 4's stacks isn't their construction, it's their use. There's no focused attacks, no maneuvering to engage vulnerable targets, no ability to use choke points unless you get really lucky and find a 1 tile gap somewhere, and once your siege units take their turn for the splash damage (assuming you have siege units in the stack) there's no difference between the order your units in the stack attack in since they'll be forced to attack different units anyway until every unit of a particular type gets attacked. You design the stack, send it on it's way, and....stop.

Splitting a stack into two just reduces the strategy your opponent needs to put into his own single stack. If you split into two even stacks instead, this just means your opponent only needs 20% of the stack to be the counter-counter unit B instead of 40%. If you counter siege units by splitting your stack, your just end up letting your opponent focus even more single-unit spam.

Why would I bother placing my weaker units into a stack when it'll be selectively targeted and destroyed anyway? I might as well place individual units in different tiles, at least it'll occupy space. 1UPT carpeting results.
Maybe you don't. Maybe you keep fragile attackers safe a turn's distance behind the front lines, let your burly defenders secure the space around the planet/city, then move the attackers in and take down the target and its defenders. Other options that open up when your attackers are smart and get to choose their target or when you have 1UPT:

1) A stack of powerful units is moving in. Do you try to match their powerful units with your own heavy hitters, or build harassment units that can at least do some damage and take out a couple enemy units piece by piece? You can't do the latter in Civ 4, the damage gets spread out across the defenders as they each rotate in, then they heal up for a turn or two and it's all for naught.

2) Your enemy is keeping his attackers mixed in with their escorts. You can attack with your planetary defenders, but assuming these are defenders, they won't be very effective (note that this applies better to GalCiv1's combat system, where if def>att for a unit, it gets 1/2 def added to att when defending, so counter-attacking with dedicated defenders carries a significant penalty). Will you try to attack with defenders anyway to take advantage now, or wait until you can build/buy/move over your own attacker units that can hit the fragile attackers better? In Civ 4 you should always wait, as unless you have enough units to force sub-par defenders to rotate in and get killed, a spot of healing and the attacker's back to normal from your attack.

3) Your enemy is keeping his glass cannon units back from the front lines. Will you take advantage of the weaker total stack strength of the front lines now and attack there, or try to maneuver fast units past the front lines to hit the glass cannons? With everything in a stack in Civ 4, you can't hit attack units until all defenders are dealt with, so there's never a reason to keep them back.


For the record, I hate the instant heal promotion, it makes it far too difficult to actually pull off the maneuvers that 1UPT should allow (e.g. hammering a weak point or flank to make an opening). Remove that and you could arguably bring down build times on units some since units will need replacing more often. If you're at war, you should lose units.

For those same reasons, I have no problems with a large army getting bogged down in tight quarters. If the straight path is only two tiles wide and you wouldn't be able to reinforce the front lines easily, find a new path or take the losses. Narrow passes are easier to defend, and 1UPT accurately reflects this. The majority of the fighting that I've done in CiV occurs in open areas where you can get 3+ units arrayed around a single target effectively and still have room for 2 ranged units plus a reinforce path behind them. If the defender is able to take advantage of narrow areas more often than not, kudos to them.
 
In Civ4 there were flanking. In FfH there is Marksman (targeting weakest units), along with Guardsman, that is counter-Marksman.

Defender can't choice himself what unit to use for defense, as it would break the turn order. That's why it should be a little "unfair" for attacker.

But Civ4 stack fights have a lot of space for strategy, and with some modding it can be made even deeper.
 
In my opinion the stacks of doom indeed weren't great. The reason why I like 1UPT more than SoD is, as mentioned, it brings more chess-like tactics to the game. This way there is really a big difference how you place your troops on the field. The first comes meelee, and they're being followed by archers and siege units. In my opinion this is just much better than the way that it was in Civ IV/III.

In 1 UPT the turns are longer since manouvering is quite a bit harder, but I like it that way. The system in Civ V ends up with me having fun wars. The AI is indeed a bit helpless especially when it comes to the usage of siege units but still its not possible to beat it by just brainlessly rushing the units from place A to B and attacking whatever you like. However, the problem in Civ V is that there is not much to do when you're not at war so the game becomes boring. From the victory conditions, the only really intresting one is the domination victory :/
 
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