Rule clarification : turn timer

DaveShack

DaveShack

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I propose the following rule clarification.

The pitboss timer is the official time source for determining how long a team has to play their turn. Pause time, server down time, and differences between the pitboss timer and wall clock are immaterial in determining the amount of time a team uses.
 
The problem with using the server timer is that a player could just log in and log out constantly, each time adding 2 minutes to the clock, giving their own team a much longer turn time without having to ask for a pause, thus circumnavigating rule 4.1; if it took 2 minutes to log in and out, then each team would be able to effectively pause the game without asking for any other teams permission. So unlimited pauses to wait for a diplomatic response, figure out what to do in a war etc.

So if server time is the accepted method then either accept that or limit the number of times someone can log into the game...
 
It would be impractical to log in / out like that. Plus, other teams logging in/out on another team's clock increase the time too.

No need to make it complicated. It's not like anyone is trying to make the game run longer, and the best kind of rule is one that the game itself enforces. Letting the timer run out imposes automatic sanctions, after all. :)
 
Not really, that's the sort of time it would take to log out of a gamespy game and then try to log back in again. It happens every night when ladder games stall.

An honour system would be ok if it was adhered to; the current one would be perfectly fine, if teams asked for pauses instead of just unilaterally going over the time limit. I don't really see a need for this rule to be changed (although there is a good arguement for reducing the turn timer to 22-23 hours IIRC), as it would add a couple of exploits that aren't pretty, and is more difficult to judge when it is being abused (for exampe, SANCTA members log in a lot, during a difficult turn this could give us another 3-4 hours).

So, I think the current rule is decent, but it needs to be followed, is all.

(As an aside, Dave, your comments about a pace setter are unrequired; yes, there will always be a pace setter, that is annoying, but is always the case and it is accepted. The problem arises with the rules, as I wrote about above. OTOH, saying that you find discussion of what you think is already decided is "distasteful" is fairly authoritarian).
 
Krill, your point about changing the pitboss timer to 22 or 23 hours is odd: at best, this would keep the pitboss clock in sync with the earth's rotation. What's the point of that? What material difference does an 'extra' 1 or 2 hours make (24 hour timer vs. 22 or 23 hour timer)? And why is the inevitability of a pace-setter annoying? That's an inherent quality of a game like this. Looked at from an AI's point of view, you are in the pace-setter in all your SP games :mischief:

As for the rule clarification, I think the new language is acceptable - speaking for myself only, and not for the team, as usual ;)
 
Oh, I'm not entirely sure, I think it was Lord Parkin who originally brought that point up. It's probably better if he explains it, as he is more eloquent than I anyway. I think it had something to do with the extra 2 minutes added to the game clock whenever someone joined, but I don't remember if there were any other points.

Nice comment about the pace settler, but I'm not falling for the troll ;)
 
For what it's worth, I agree with DaveShack. The in-game clock is the official timekeeper, and trying to adopt some other system would be much, much too big of a headache to implement. Yes, we all know that "24 hours" on the Pitboss clock doesn't necessarily equate to a real day, but so what? That's part of the game. :)

If a team actually starts abusing the login feature to artificially add more time, it will show up in CivStats, and can be reported here in the General Forum. (I do not think that this will ever happen, for the record.) Teams are free to take the full 24 hours every turn if they desire, even if it may be frustrating to other teams. Of course, those same frustrated teams can also take our their resentment in-game on the slow teams... like I said, it's all part of the game. But no one is breaking any rules here.
 
In the last turn (1360) number of logging
SAN 7
Cav 6
MS 5
Kaz 2 (9 in 1440)
Sat 1 (6 in 1800)
 
I support the rule clarification also.
I'm just sad it's even necessary.

I'm personally very pleased with the pace of this game... we're moving with record speed for a MTDG, and as I've said from the very beginning: Team interactions are the reason we're doing an MTDG - being in too much of a hurry restricts team interaction and diminishes the reason we're even using this game format.

There are plenty of PitBoss games you can join with shorter time limits if you're in the mood for a very fast game of Civ. Let's all try to appreciate what makes an MTDG unique and enjoy that without being in such a hurry.


(standard disclosure: I'm not speaking on behalf of Team SANCTA)
 
While it's true that 2 minutes are added to the timer each time someone logs in, I can't see why anyone would bother to abuse this, as it's a waste of their time when they could just ask for a pause.

On the subject of the 25-26 hour pitboss clock as opposed to a "real" 24 hour clock though: it's probably worth shaving an hour or two off the pitboss timer to try to synchronize it roughly with the Earth's rotation, if teams are regularly using most of the timer (which I suspect will happen more and more frequently as the game progresses). Think about it this way: if at least one team takes 26 hours on most turns, then that's roughly an extra day of delay every fortnight. Over the course of a year, that means we're finishing the game a whole month later. So an amendment to the pitboss clock should probably be seriously considered. :)

In response directly to the first post: aside from obvious things like server down-time which are fine to take into account, I don't think that going by the pitboss timer is a great idea. Ignoring pause time doesn't really make that much sense, for one thing - sure teams should be able to pause the game if they need to, but you can't escape the fact that after more than a couple of days of the game being paused, people will start to get itchy feet. And just saying "sure it's been a few days, but we've only used 12 hours of official time according to this rule" isn't going to satisfy a lot of people. ;)

I think a much better solution would be to first amend the pitboss timer (as suggested above), and then to go with a simple rule:

Teams should try to play their turns within 24 hours of real time whenever possible. If they require more time they may request a pause of the turn timer. In this case they must endeavor to unpause and play again as soon as feasible, as well as regularly update the forum on how much longer they expect to take.

Thoughts? :)
 
Just using the pitboss timer gives automatic enforcement and turn players don't need to go look at the forum and count hours from the last GPS to find out when their time is up. Remember, the issue arose because one person was looking at times of forum posts while the other was looking at the timer displayed in the game. Also the GPS could be inaccurate -- what if a player posted first, but didn't hit end turn right away? It's plausible that someone could be taking screenshots, updating team's forum, posting in the tracker -- and get interrupted before ending turn. ;)
 
Right - but either way, the pitboss timer should be reduced by an hour or two, don't you agree? :)
 
Let's give that a day or so for anyone to object and for the word to get out. Unlikely as it might seem, we don't want someone to wake up in the morning and find out their time is up.
 
I'll say it again: I don't see a compelling reason to synchronize the very simple in-game turn timer enforcement mechanism to the rotation of the celestial body we happen to be stuck to.

If the game gets 'out-of-synch' with one team's turnplayer's daily routine, it is very likely that he/she will play at a time of day more suitable to his/her schedule. This will almost certainly result in a different team becoming the pace setter, and we're right back where we started, which is where we are right now. Circle of life.
 
Except that on the whole, the game will be delayed a tad less. Leading to shaving about a month of time off if the game lasts a year. Which is good, no? :)
 
Which is good, no?
Click to expand...

Why? I really don't understand the value of ending a game in, say, 15 months versus 16 months. The whole point is to enjoy playing the game. So if that game takes 12 months, so be it. If it lasts for 16 months, that's fine as well.

If the point of reading a book is to get to the last page, there are many ways to cut corners.
 
Lord Parkin said:
On the subject of the 25-26 hour pitboss clock as opposed to a "real" 24 hour clock though: it's probably worth shaving an hour or two off the pitboss timer to try to synchronize it roughly with the Earth's rotation, if teams are regularly using most of the timer (which I suspect will happen more and more frequently as the game progresses). Think about it this way: if at least one team takes 26 hours on most turns, then that's roughly an extra day of delay every fortnight. Over the course of a year, that means we're finishing the game a whole month later. So an amendment to the pitboss clock should probably be seriously considered.
Thoughts? :)
Click to expand...
That's nonsense
Since 4. Decembre we 've played 66 turns in 84 days.I 've made ~63 and there are 2 turns longer than 24 hours. I wonder how quick I 've played, average of 10 h 31 min (server-fred). If we 've needed every turn only 1 day the oracle wouldn't build today.
 
It was a hypothetical situation, more likely to occur in the future. You're right that we don't have many problems at the moment, but who knows what the future might bring. I was just throwing the thought out there that reducing the Pitboss clock by 1 or 2 hours might be a good idea. :)
 
Lord Parkin said:
While it's true that 2 minutes are added to the timer each time someone logs in, I can't see why anyone would bother to abuse this, as it's a waste of their time when they could just ask for a pause.

On the subject of the 25-26 hour pitboss clock as opposed to a "real" 24 hour clock though: it's probably worth shaving an hour or two off the pitboss timer to try to synchronize it roughly with the Earth's rotation, if teams are regularly using most of the timer (which I suspect will happen more and more frequently as the game progresses). Think about it this way: if at least one team takes 26 hours on most turns, then that's roughly an extra day of delay every fortnight. Over the course of a year, that means we're finishing the game a whole month later. So an amendment to the pitboss clock should probably be seriously considered. :)

In response directly to the first post: aside from obvious things like server down-time which are fine to take into account, I don't think that going by the pitboss timer is a great idea. Ignoring pause time doesn't really make that much sense, for one thing - sure teams should be able to pause the game if they need to, but you can't escape the fact that after more than a couple of days of the game being paused, people will start to get itchy feet. And just saying "sure it's been a few days, but we've only used 12 hours of official time according to this rule" isn't going to satisfy a lot of people. ;)

I think a much better solution would be to first amend the pitboss timer (as suggested above), and then to go with a simple rule:

Teams should try to play their turns within 24 hours of real time whenever possible. If they require more time they may request a pause of the turn timer. In this case they must endeavor to unpause and play again as soon as feasible, as well as regularly update the forum on how much longer they expect to take.

Thoughts? :)
Click to expand...

The problem with that rule is that it is very easy to break without knowing... Rules should be something in place to prevent abuse. Keeping track of the real timer instead of 24 hours of the day is much easier(just check the time on civstats). Somtimes things can take longer to plan / organize than what you would get in a turn. Then it would be very weird to have to keep track of a seperate timer just to avoid breaking any rules(you want the timer to run as long as possible to give you as much time as possible). Having the natural flip from the game timer is much easier...

Shortening the timer might be an idea, but this is sequential pitboss so it is not like the teams depends on each others schedule to play before/after someone else. As such the timer really is independant of the game, and it doesn't really matter what it is set to as long as it is fast enough to keep the game moving yet slow enough to give each team the time they need... People who are impatient just for a few hours really need to relax, this isn't going to go fast no matter how you look at it...

This game should be decided percieved optimal decisions not by who can do the most within the timeconstraints given...

While i personally would be happy to play in say a pitboss game with 12 or even 6 hours timer(meaning people are most likely going to miss turns), that isn't what this game is about at all...
 
My two pennies worth on the matter:

I think we should just use the in-game pitboss timer but reduce it to 23hrs instead of 24hrs. It's easy to implement and fair. People can still request a pause when necessary.

I would also like to suggest that teams are allowed a set number of pauses per so many X number of turns. Kind of like asking for a timeout in a game of basketball.

It's also wrong to assume that teams that are taking turns quicker are somehow less democratic, they are just probably planning further ahead and thinking of different scenarios in advance so when they arise the turn player knows what to do.
 
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