Civilization elimination thread

hobbsyoyo said:

I haven't tried the scenario. But the ability is incredibly useful on many maps types. Even a pangea map when you think about it - loooong coastline. A couple of long chains of Moai will pump out the culture in a big way. Plus, isn't there another bonus they give to the tile?

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Combat strength bonus for nearby units - no tile production bonus.

Admittedly, I am probably mistaken. But I triple-checked my upgraded units and they didn't have the promotion. So I don't know what happened.

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Probably a bug in that case - it's an odd thing to give the AI as a cheat.

Don't you also get additional gold too? Thanks for the reminder about the combat bonus, I totally forgot that one.

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Only once Flight is researched, which is a bit late for it to be hugely useful. It's a nice touch thematically though.

For me personally, going up against Germany is challenging and fun. Being Germany is kind of meh. They aren't bad, just meh.

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Going up against Germany is challenging, but I find it too predictable to be fun. Even when I cultivate Bismarck as an ally, he eventually backstabs me, and I don't find swarms particularly fun to face in combat.

How many barbs camps can you clear in a single standard game. Yeah, that is right -
about 4-5(maybe 6-7 if you spawned near the ice zones),

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Do your Immortal games usually end in the Classical era? I've usually cleared more camps than that by then. Playing moderately tall helps to a degree, since you leave a lot of unimproved land to spawn barbarians, and the sooner you kill camps the sooner they respawn in the same place. Of course fighting barbarians early in the game is complemented very well by the Honor tree, which gives you an early culture boost that's complemented by the MP Mosque, which gets you gold-farming sooner than the competition. No, it won't net you a culture victory, but it effectively gives you the French UA (if you want temples anyway) and it will help net one or two extra policies earlier than you would otherwise.

But you're ignoring the key part of the UA, which is the way it scales - early on you use it to hit barbarians. Later you use it to get the triple gold from capturing cities. The Mandelaku isn't great - the Conquistador also ignores the city attack penalty but has other abilities to boot - but it does complement this part of the UA.

As for getting that extra luxury? Songhai have as much chance of getting that as anyone else that early in the game, in which case the Songhai boost is all additive. And works in multiplayer or when the AIs don't have that much available gold, or if you have a start where you don't meet other civs early enough for the sale to be particularly useful.

And you're completely neglecting when you get the barbarian gold boost and the importance of quick gold in the early game - the Songhai ability kicks in very early (and, as above, scales as time goes on). It's very feasible for Songhai to buy an early army and go on the offensive before anyone else; or if you play more peacefully early, to buy settlers or pay an early 500 for CS favour.

And yes, I've often played Songhai as they're one of my favourite civs, so this isn't theorycrafting. Granted I haven't yet played them since I started playing Immortal regularly - most of my Songhai games were on Emperor - but all Immortal really adds that's relevant is more barbarians, in my experience.

America 15
Arabia 22
Austria 10
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 20
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 6
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 18
Maya 25
Mongolia 19
The Netherlands 15
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 22

America 15
Arabia 22
Austria 10
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 20
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 6
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 18
Maya 25
Mongolia 19
The Netherlands 13
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

Netherlands UA ain't all that, their ship is cool but situational... but, is it just me or is their start bias away from flood plains or marsh? I have played three full games with the Netherlanders and have a full one polder built ever

Sweden has an awesome rifle-based UU and a deceptively powerful UA. Easily my fav G+K civ.

Liegence said:

Sweden has an awesome rifle-based UU and a deceptively powerful UA. Easily my fav G+K civ.

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I'm currently trying games as Sweden and have yet to make the UA work for me effectively - rather than being "deceptively powerful", it looks on the face of it as though it should be extremely powerful but somehow fails to work effectively for me despite having 3+ friends in most games and beelining specialist building techs.

The Carolean is great but the Hakkipeliita, while interesting in its 'reverse Khan' affect, seems a bit lackluster (though due to a lack of horses I haven't yet got to try it). An extra 15% bonus on the lancer - which by the standards of the time when it hits is not especially strong - may not be helpful enough, and enhanced GG movement not too useful once you're in combat and want the GG mainly supporting your static army rather than one or two fast flanking units.

America 15
Arabia 22
Austria 10
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 20
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 6
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 18
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 13
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

I absolutely hate units like the Keshik. I know they are really strong but I hate the play style and that fact that the promotions don't carry over when they become cavalry.

I absolutely love the Ottomans now. With Gods and Kings they are no longer just the navel version of Germany.

Apparently ranged promotions work when attacking (obviously not on defense) for melee units. I see it as a green modifier. Doesn't that mean it does kind of carry over?

RealHuhn said:

Just to get this out of the way.

You can settle everywhere you want, so try to settle near or at the coast with a peninsula nearby.

What do I mean with peninsula? Something like this: O = ocean tile; X = land tile
(I know this isn't completely accurrate because the game uses hexagons but you get the idea.)

OOOXXXX
OOOXXXXXXX
OOOOXXXOOO
OOOOXXXOOOOO
OOOOOXOOOOOO

Almost every map type has similar patches of land.

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While this is true, they won't necessarily be in otherwise good city spots, nor will they necessarily be immediately accessible even with Polynesian exploration. And if they are you're looking at using half a dozen tiles to do the work of two tiles with Landmarks (only without the late game advantages of Freedom). You note that you can get that culture rolling very early, but only if you have a pop 6+ city on said peninsula and the tiles are otherwise areas capable of supporting that many people - so in practice you probably aren't going to get it working to full effect much earlier than you could start dropping landmarks.

America 15
Arabia 22
Austria 10
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 21
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 4
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 18
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 13
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

Germany: There UA does not save that much money and brutes don't upgrade into there UU. Also having a lot of troops in the very early game is a good way to lose money. Panzer is also lackluster and comes very late in the game. There unique pikemen are cool but not enough to make this Civ worthwhile.

Carthage: Harbors from the beginning of the game are incredible. Extra hammers from sea resources right away and lots of quick income from trade routes when money is hard to come by. There unique trireme replacement is very nice for capturing city's early on and protecting your trade routes from barbs. The Carthaginian elephant is also nice and helps generate great generals. Being able to cross mountains is just icing on the cake

America 16 (+1)
Arabia 22
Austria 10
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 21
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 4
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 23 (-2)
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 18
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 13
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

The American UA suits my play style really well. I love having the ability to plan out my nation well before anyone else has even finished exploring my starting continent. Popping more goodie huts in the beginning and spamming land tiles all through the game are also awesome selling features. B17s mean I don't have to waste a lot of build time on siege equipment either, when I'm ready to finally sweep up what's left.

The Incas on the other hand do tend to start in scenic vistas, but while mountainous areas are great for creating bottlenecks, they also severely limit one's own expansion and are even less useful than desert or tundra. The terrace farm is awesome, but their starting UU is imao, a joke.. running away from a fight? Meh.


-Elgalad

I havent voted, but are we voting for civs we like? or civs we like because they are powerful?
and for dislike, are we voting for civs we dislike, civs we dislike because to weak? or civs that we dislike because we lose against them too often?

because i feel this thread is a bit innacurate when i see some ppl voting down a civ because its either weak, OR wayyyy too powerful .. which makes no sense !!!

also, vote after every 24 hours?
so the same ppl can come and re vote up the same civs and vote down the same civs? lol

somewhere on page 2 or 3 the OP wanted it to be about civs you like but have actually played/owned after someone downvoted a civ because they didnt own it. your reasoning is your own so long as you own it but most arent voting purely based on strongest/weakest. it is sometimes a secondary reason. ultimately there is no real restriction (other than voting 1/day to prevent an infinite vote spam to remove a civ by yourself) as this is just informal and popular akin to the other Elimination threads.

PhilBowles said:

While this is true, they won't necessarily be in otherwise good city spots, nor will they necessarily be immediately accessible even with Polynesian exploration. And if they are you're looking at using half a dozen tiles to do the work of two tiles with Landmarks (only without the late game advantages of Freedom). You note that you can get that culture rolling very early, but only if you have a pop 6+ city on said peninsula and the tiles are otherwise areas capable of supporting that many people - so in practice you probably aren't going to get it working to full effect much earlier than you could start dropping landmarks.

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You only want to work those three tiles for the +14 culture, not all 6. The other Moais are just there to boost the core tiles. With a size 6 city, you can work the +14 culture tiles and three farms for growth.
There is no way you can get two landmarks this early in the game. And trust me, if you scout with a trireme on a standard continents map, you will find a lot of those peninsulas at decent city locations.

Can't vote yet^^

America 16
Arabia 22
Austria 10-2=8
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 21
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 4+1=5
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 23
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 18
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 13
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

I used to be a Germany hater, for all the obvious terribleness of the encampment bonus. I wasted game after game trying to leverage an army out of that. Then I played a game where I ignored that and I realized that Germany would be great even if the only attribute it had was the half-price pikeman.

Just take away all your preconceptions.

Imagine starting a game right now where you let the start of the few play out as normal, go aggressive or jus turtle up or whatever.

And as Civil Service you suddenly have a fifty-turn period where you can crank out one pikeman per turn and reshape your whole continent at will.

That's Germany.

Also the maintenance discount is eventually useful. And I like the gray.

Austria - same complaint, when playing them it's win by boredom. I don't mind them as a foe, but let's go ahead and finish them off the list.

GhostSalsa said:

I used to be a Germany hater, for all the obvious terribleness of the encampment bonus. I wasted game after game trying to leverage an army out of that. Then I played a game where I ignored that and I realized that Germany would be great even if the only attribute it had was the half-price pikeman.

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Hmm yeah not bad...

GhostSalsa said:

And as Civil Service you suddenly have a fifty-turn period where you can crank out one pikeman per turn and reshape your whole continent at will.

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Of course...

GhostSalsa said:

Also the maintenance discount is eventually useful.

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Hmm yes 33% isn't bad...

GhostSalsa said:

And I like the gray.

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THIS! THIS! THIS! AWESOME COLOR!



............................

Honestly, his true power doesn't come from his UA(excepted the 33% maintenance, especially post ren. era) but more about his insane medieval UU. I don't know for other players but a solid warmonger will be able to build over 15 units in a few turns for a single blitzkrieg and this country gives you this ability at a low price. Best way to win by domination at Deity for those who wanna try.

America 16
Arabia 22
Austria 8
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 21
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 5
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 23
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 18 + 1 = 19
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 13 - 2 = 11
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

I like Korea, cuz it's great in occ and I play mainly occ games. The Dutch is not very useful since I play small empires.

HelloGoodbye123 said:

are we voting for civs we like? or civs we like because they are powerful?

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It's just a question of 'if the game had to lose one civ in an update tomorrow who would you make it be?' So, the civ that doesn't contribute to your playstyle.

That's why Polynesia's probably doing so bad. Most people don't like a playstyle that doesn't sync with the overpowered core techs like civil service etc, or ones that rely on luck (I have had founded cities lost as Kammy due to accidental closeness to civs on other continents). Also, I feel the game really makes you sacrifice too much for fishing boats so coastal starts on capitals can be crippling.

Still, I wouldn't want to see them go, they really provide a different experience.

Elgalad said:

The Incas [...] their starting UU is imao, a joke.. running away from a fight? Meh. -Elgalad

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Once I lost a worker who was protected (I thought) by a slinger....the slinger run away from the fight.

America 16
Arabia 22
Austria 6 (-2)
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 21
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 5
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 23
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 19
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 12 (+1)
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

As I've said before Austria's UA is a good idea that was very poorly implemented. So until it's patched this civ stays at the bottom of my list.

Netherlands needs to stick around longer, because it is a good civ. I've detailed why in previous posts.

America 16
Arabia 22
Austria 6 - 2 = 4
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 21
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 5
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 23
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 19
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 12 + 1 = 13
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

Austria got to go. UA need a patch, some good ideas here.

Why so much hate for the Netherlands? Their UA is awesome for buying everything in the first 100 turns, or going extra wide, and the UI is absolutely brutal. Flood plains are bot uncommon, and the polder make them the best tiles in games with economic theory. The UU is so so I guess, but they are plenty good already!

America 16
Arabia 22
Austria 2 (-2)
Aztec 25
Babylon 22
Byzantium 23
Carthage 21
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 11
Egypt 15
England 17
Ethiopia 18
France 22
Germany 5
Greece 23
Huns 20
Inca 23
Iroquois 16
Japan 20
Korea 20 (+1)
Maya 25
Mongolia 17
The Netherlands 13
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 23
Polynesia 10
Roman Empire 20
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 16
Spain 14
Sweden 23

Austria is just broken. In addition to the previously mentioned gripes, when CS are bought through marriage, they lose their status as a CS/capital. In other words, if Austria is your opponent, you can burn all the former CS they assimilated which seems to not be an intended design characteristic.

Babylon is all about . The free GS and extra GS make the game more adaptable to any strategy because you need good no matter what victory you are going for.