The Celts

A peolple who pretty much ruled central Europe in the ancient times, land wise, put who seemed to never get thier act together as a collective Civ.

Eventually being conquered or assimallated into civs with a more central and advanced goverment.

Whats your take on em, and why do you think they are still one of the most romantised civs in western culture?
:arrow:

They are one of the most romantised civs in western culture? (no offense) Maybe they are romantised more in Ireland. Like America is defiently more romantised over in the USA then in Ireland.

The Celts are highly romntisized in most western countries, the British Isles, France and northern Italy especially.

The Celts were in many ways a very successful civ and lasted in some orm from about 500BC until 1746AD, a good deal more than 2000 years, much more than the Romano-Iberian civs or the English civs. They are part of the heritage of europe, the were warriors highly respected for their nobility. They gave the world ring-mail armour, the "Gallic sword", their distinctive art, the Arthur myths, tartan, etc. They are romantisized because of all this, they represent the natural side of western culture, their spirituality for instance, is misrepresented to create a a large scale hippy culture for those who aren't exactly happy with the manner of life they are made to live in modern society.

If you tell any English person that King Arthur was not English or a King, but a British Celtic military leader that held back the Saxon advances for a generataion, (myth or not) they would probably be surprised. Yet he has been held by the English as a national hero, with all the frills.

Also france has taken on Vercingetorix as a national hero, even though the Franks were, and are, a completly seperate culture that had no real conection with this time in history.

Plus a lot of mythological fiction has a distinct celtic vien running through it. Lord of the rings for one.
Even 'Conan the barbarion' ( Conan is an old celtic name)

Edit: Sorry Calgacus, i was typing this as you were posting.

The Celts are romantised because they had so much mystery and mythology. For example, the druids or the "menhirs" at Carnac, for instance.

I have read once that the Celts are actually not a single people, but a collection of peoples, who adopted the same technology, customs, social norms etc... the source of which was somewhere in Central Europe.

The Celts was a large mass of Tribal Nations, with similar culture and religion. They dominated much of Western Europe before Caesar the Barbarian conquered their world. Some of the prominent tribes were the Boii, Belgae and Helvetii, but there were many more. I like the Celts and their history… Try and read Caesar’s Gallic Wars, and see what a bastard he really was.

Cimbri

Here’s a map of the Tribal Nations of the Gallic Celts
(By Slitherine):

Here’s some typical Celtic warriors rushing into battle
(Ancient Armies by Concord Publications):

Knight-Dragon wrote:

I have read once that the Celts are actually not a single people, but a collection of peoples, who adopted the same technology, customs, social norms etc... the source of which was somewhere in Central Europe.

There is indeed some controversy over exactly who the Celts were. In the late 19th century paleoethnologists and archaeologists began equating technologies and material cultural remains with ethnic units, but increasingly today there is some doubt about this. The problem is that 1st millennium tribes didn't view ethnicity and "nations" in the way we moderns do. The afore-mentioned heavy romanticization of "Celtic" lore and culture have not helped, nor has modern Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc. nationalism. Was the spread of iron-age technologies and material culture really due to one people, the Celts, or did the spread of these technologies create the cultural similarities that we mistake for a common ethnicity? There was never anything approaching a single Celtic political unit that encompassed even a majority of those we call Celts.

There are precedents - modern Romanians derive from a mixture of nationalities combined through a common lifestyle in dangerous times, and indeed an offshoot of the proto-Romanians survives today as a minority in northern Greece, called the Vlachs. (Part of historic Romania is called "Wallachia", and the term "vlach" or "ulach" was used in Central Europe in early medieval times to refer to Latin-speakers.) Did a Celtic nationality form this way? The Central European Celts - the Boii ("Boii-emia = "Bohemia") and others - seem to have been the earliest and were a font of technologies.

I'm a big fan of Celtic culture (folk tales etc.), they didn't seem to be a warlike people, and therefore assimilation by more powerul peoples was imminent. A real pity, truly.

Originally posted by Mikoyan
I'm a big fan of Celtic culture (folk tales etc.), they didn't seem to be a warlike people, and therefore assimilation by more powerul peoples was imminent. A real pity, truly.

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Unwarlike? On the contrary, I think they were one of the most warlike tribes of all - at least earlier. The Cisalphine (sp?) Gauls who settled the Po valley in N Italy once sacked Rome itself, in the 5th century BC. And continually raided the Italian states. Rome feared the Celts - which was why they were so savage when the Roman legions finally beat them back and invaded Gaul. It takes much to make Rome fear anything...

Also some of the Celts actually migrated (fought their way thru more probably) into Central Anatolia and became the Galatians. Many records were left, remarking on how aggressive and warlike they were. They made prefect mercenaries.

BTW, now that I think of it; I first read about the possibility that the Celts might be an ethnic misnomer fr Vrylakas' posts.

Originally posted by gael
Also france has taken on Vercingetorix as a national hero, even though the Franks were, and are, a completly seperate culture that had no real conection with this time in history.

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The Franks are not the same as the French. The Franks were a Germanic people who ruled Gaul and western Germania. The French have as much in common with the Gauls as they do with the Franks.

The Celts were uncivilized by Roman stds. They were talented artists and produced cultural artifacts and mythology that are still admired and emulated today. They were apparently from Central Europe, Austria and Switzerland and migrated west colonizing France and the British Isles. They were thought to be invaders, by the Picts of Scotland, for example, as well as other more established cultures in the British Isles. However over the course of many generations the conquered cultures were mostly assimilated into the Celtic culture. These days parts of France and England and most of Wales, Scotland and especially Ireland feel a strong cultural connection to the Celts.

English and French cultures were immeasurably influenced by Celtic culture, and those nations were two of the five major colonizers who brought Western Civilization to the rest of the world.

Since people of Irish descent in particular are widespread around the world, Celtic culture is thought by many to be part of their family history. My family is of Irish origin, having migrated to the US following the Irish Potato famine of the mid-1800s -- very common.

The Celts were squeezed out of existance in most of Europe by the Romans and the Germanic tribes, then the last remnants of their culture in the British Isles faced heinous repression from the English. Until American dominance after World War II, the English were considered the dominant power in the world. So the Celts represent the idea of radical opposition to the tyrannical powers that be, which is an idea that appeals to many.

They are the ultimate underdog, but their language and culture is still recognizable and present in the world. They may no longer exist as a distinct civilization, but Celtic culture is still distinct and compelling. It's just hard not to love those adorable artistically-gifted metal-working human-sacrificing Stonehenge-worshipping barbarians!

cal --

One of the most fascinating aspects of history (for me) is the inevitability of two-way cultural assimilation. The Franks, who came after the Gauls, were no doubt influenced by them. So Frankish culture after assimilation was no doubt different f/ Frankish culture before assimilation. The French owe their nation's culture to the Gauls, the Romans and the Franks, who in turn owe their cultures to the Celts, the Greeks and Judeans and the Germanic tribes, respectively.

wasn't Larry Byrd a celtic?

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
I have read once that the Celts are actually not a single people, but a collection of peoples, who adopted the same technology, customs, social norms etc... the source of which was somewhere in Central Europe.

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I have read a view books on Celtic history and origins, and i have to admit, i found my self thinking that most of the people who wrote these books use the same sources,Rome, (and to a lesser extent Greece), but elaborate on there own romantised ideas of what the Celtic socity and poeple were like.
Rome seems to have posioned the wells of of ancient European history, so no mater how much someone tells you they are an 'authority' on this subject, you can bet they are talking through thier arse.

Personaly i don't believe there was such a thing as a pure Celtic race that spaned across the the whole of central and western europe, as much as i don't believe that the whole of the English empire was completly English in race.
I think they were a a group of headcases that over-ran all of the teritory that they are assocated with through sword and trade, and although we know them as barbarians, they must of had some sort of cultural attraction that made these conquered people quickly adapt, embrace, and basically become what we know today as Celtic, in the form of speech, art, and custom.

In saying all that, they still retained a very tribal existence when Rome, and even latter, other peoples were forming a sense of nationalism.
This inevitably became thier downfall.
l

Lol all i know is that the Celts make good golf courses, no offense but other than that they are a bunch of ppl on a tiny island that contribute nothing to society and are at war w/ thereselfs, when the heck in history could 2 christians groups not get along other than on ireland. i cant think of any.

Wildbore -

Dude that's harsh.

The Catholic-Protestant troubles of Ireland are only the most visible modern extension of a conflict that extends back in time around 500 years, ever since Martin Luthor was able to convince many German Catholics to go Protestant.

Power struggles between Catholics and Protestants have occured in the Netherlands and England as well, especially in the mid-1600s... For many years the (now exceptionally tolerant) Netherlands banned Catholicism, forcing Catholics to worship in secret monosteries. England's struggle extended through the reigns of many kings -- from Henry VIII to at least Charles II, and the conflict was a major stimulus in encouraging England's colonization of the new world.

Ireland's troubles are not all about religious differences. It's mostly about the desire of the Irish Republicans to absorb Northern Ireland into the Republic of Ireland, resulting in a sovereign Irish island-nation, and the oppositional desire of the Northern Irish to remain part of the United Kingdom under England's rule.

Originally posted by CivilopediaCity
The Celts are romantised because they had so much mystery and mythology. For example, the druids or the "menhirs" at Carnac, for instance.

Click to expand...

The druids were indeed Celtic, but not the menhirs. The megalithic culture of Britain, Ireland and northern France predated the Celts by a couple of thousand years.