The Problem of Barbarians

Coming back to this after a while and having read halsall's book, one thing that kind of bothers me is the allusion to the shift in male identity. That from "civic leader" to "religious orthodoxy" inspired by the spread of Christianity. Perhaps I am misreading him and this has nothing to do with the eventual fall of the WRE, but if it does doesn't this at least partially vindicate Gibbons?
It doesn't really vindicate Gibbon at all.

Gibbon's thesis was that the Roman bureaucracy and army were effectively hamstrung by the supposed flight of the aristocracy into Christian asceticism - sitting on top of stelae, cloistering in monasteries, becoming bishops and whatnot. This ostensibly meant that the people that were left to run the state were, depending on one's charitableness, either drawn from a smaller pool of capable candidates or simply the dross that was left after everybody with a brain went into "useless" "Christianity". This claim is, nowadays, dismissed partially due to lack of evidence, and partially due to the lack of a discernible decline in skill on the part of Roman administrators and soldiers.

Halsall's allusion to altering male gender roles is different, and relates to a different phenomenon, the so-called flight of the curials. According to older narratives, the class of Roman citizens called curiales were responsible for much of the important administrative work in the early Empire. They knit together the fabric of the state by participating in local government, and they were very conspicuous in funding and dedicating civic buildings. But these dedications are increasingly difficult to find as the Empire wears on, with what seems to be a fairly discontinuous break in the late third and fourth centuries; by the fifth century, only Africa saw many dedications by the curiales, and this probably had as much to do with African society's self-conscious archaizing Roman identity as anything else.

Supposedly, the decline in the number of curial dedications means that that class of Roman citizens either stopped existing, or stopped participating in civic life the way they had. According to this narrative, the Empire ceased to be held together in a relevant way on the most basic, local level, and this contributed to its apparently easy break-up and the pronounced regionalism of its later years.

There are several obvious objections to this claim. For one, the decline in curial dedications may simply mean that there weren't many more things to dedicate. A city can only have so many fora and circuses. For another, the growth of the state bureaucracy over the course of the third and fourth centuries provided alternative avenues for conspicuous civic participation. Take the creation of many walled circuits around the cities of Gaul in the third century, acts which received local sponsors much like the walls of the modern German medievalizing village Rothenburg ob der Tauber. State projects such as these received considerable local support, a sort of positive feedback loop as the Emperors were more likely to invest in local projects in areas that they were hanging out in at that time, and it was more likely for there to be local rich people willing to fund stuff if an Emperor were nearby, because Emperors come with a retinue and hangers-on and bureaucrats and the praesental army and whatnot.

But the largest objection is the one Halsall alluded to, namely, that civic participation was channeled into Christianity. Instead of financing public buildings, curials probably started financing charities and missionary work instead. That sort of thing has little to no archaeological imprint, but plenty of attestation in hagiographical sources and contemporary letters, and moreover, it was probably more helpful to the actual populace of a given city than a massive meeting house or magistracy.
 
Halsall's allusion to altering male gender roles is different, and relates to a different phenomenon, the so-called flight of the curials. According to older narratives, the class of Roman citizens called curiales were responsible for much of the important administrative work in the early Empire. They knit together the fabric of the state by participating in local government, and they were very conspicuous in funding and dedicating civic buildings. But these dedications are increasingly difficult to find as the Empire wears on, with what seems to be a fairly discontinuous break in the late third and fourth centuries; by the fifth century, only Africa saw many dedications by the curiales, and this probably had as much to do with African society's self-conscious archaizing Roman identity as anything else.

But I don't see how this activity was particularly helpful in keeping the empire together. They helped develop infrastructure and thus, cities. And the empire's culture was very much urban. But what the hell, the greek states were urban cultures too and they spend their entire existence squabbling against each other. I just don't buy it that the curiales and their evergetism were what kept the empire together in the first place.

But the largest objection is the one Halsall alluded to, namely, that civic participation was channeled into Christianity. Instead of financing public buildings, curials probably started financing charities and missionary work instead. That sort of thing has little to no archaeological imprint, but plenty of attestation in hagiographical sources and contemporary letters, and moreover, it was probably more helpful to the actual populace of a given city than a massive meeting house or magistracy.

Now that you mention that, it would be interesting to know when the dedication of charitable hospitals came about. Those at least should leave some identifiable remains for future archeologists. Is there evidence of any in the late roman empire, or were they a medieval thing?
 
I know that Christians began to build hospitals during the late-Empire, and I would assume that many of them were constructed under the patronage of local elites. I don't know of any specific instances of a dedication being unearthed though.
 
But I don't see how this activity was particularly helpful in keeping the empire together. They helped develop infrastructure and thus, cities. And the empire's culture was very much urban. But what the hell, the greek states were urban cultures too and they spend their entire existence squabbling against each other. I just don't buy it that the curiales and their evergetism were what kept the empire together in the first place.
Supposedly, the willingness of the curials to invest considerable monies in the development of civic infrastructure and imperial symbols of ideology is indicative of their participation in local government and overall loyalty to the notion of a Roman Empire. I think that this is sort of crap as well.
innonimatu said:
Now that you mention that, it would be interesting to know when the dedication of charitable hospitals came about. Those at least should leave some identifiable remains for future archeologists. Is there evidence of any in the late roman empire, or were they a medieval thing?
That is pretty far outside my area of expertise. :( Sorry.
 
Excellent read, I'm quite glad this was bumped. :)

I hate to nitpick, but I was a little disappointed by your refutation of Peter Heather's "wagon, women and children" argument with a Fenton photograph. Invoking the Crimean War is so far out of context that it is almost irrelevant. I recall reading in Figes' book (although I'm too lazy to find the passage ATM) that the British army in Crimea broke new ground by allowing some of the soldiers and officer's wives to tag along and manage things like cooking and such. I won't pretend to be an expert on fifth-century military matters, but I can imagine that it wasn't the norm to bring your wife and kids along to the sacking of some Roman city, especially when there are plenty of local women.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Heather's arguments are mostly wrong, I just think you could have gone further in depth about why they are.

EDIT: I just realized that you just transcribed the article linked to - my bad. :blush: I guess taking up my qualms with you won't serve much purpose.
 
Excellent read, I'm quite glad this was bumped. :)

I hate to nitpick, but I was a little disappointed by your refutation of Peter Heather's "wagon, women and children" argument with a Fenton photograph. Invoking the Crimean War is so far out of context that it is almost irrelevant. I recall reading in Figes' book (although I'm too lazy to find the passage ATM) that the British army in Crimea broke new ground by allowing some of the soldiers and officer's wives to tag along and manage things like cooking and such. I won't pretend to be an expert on fifth-century military matters, but I can imagine that it wasn't the norm to bring your wife and kids along to the sacking of some Roman city, especially when there are plenty of local women.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Heather's arguments are mostly wrong, I just think you could have gone further in depth about why they are.

Armies in the Thirty Years' War were often largely composed of women and child camp followers. I doubt the Bavarians were migrating to a new homeland.
 
Armies in the Thirty Years' War were often largely composed of women and child camp followers. I doubt the Bavarians were migrating to a new homeland.
Though it would have been hilarious if they were.

It was extremely common for armies to march with a positively huge camp of followers in antiquity and the early-Middle Ages. Alexander's army had such a large number of camp followers that there were children born and raised in the camps that had never set foot in a city. Many of his troops found wives among the locals during their campaigns, but since they obviously weren't settling down, the new wives simply tagged along. There were also a sizable number of prostitutes.

While Alexander's camp is exceptional in its sheer size - he deliberately brought along cartographers, scholars, etc., who would not have normally accompanied an army on campaign, though it must be noted that Napoleon did the same in Egypt - it was hardly the only army in antiquity to do this. One of the reasons Caesar's armies in Gaul moved so quickly, in fact, was that he had an almost negligible baggage train. Women and children tend to slow down a march, and the soldiers are often very loathe to leave them behind.
 
Ah, I guess nobody wants to neatly summarize an answer for this?

So, what exactly were the Goths, Alemanni, Franks, Vandals, et al.; where did they come from? If these aren't designations that refer to their genetic origin "as a people", then what are they? How did they interact with the Roman Empire? Why ca(n't?) it be said that the Vandals "conquered" north Africa or the Franks "conquered" Gaul?
 
Ah, I guess nobody wants to neatly summarize an answer for this?
In short, most of those designations did initially refer to groups outside the Roman frontier that can reasonably be classified as "barbarians", but once those groups entered imperial territory and began to act as political-military protagonists within the system, they took on another meaning entirely.
 
So what were they once they started speaking Latin and conformed to the Roman army? Social cliques, subcultures, arbitrary labels?
 
So what were they once they started speaking Latin and conformed to the Roman army? Social cliques, subcultures, arbitrary labels?
Most of them were cliques that formed for social, political, and military reasons, which differed from group to group. The labels were clearly not arbitrary; they were relevant layers of ethnicity that were consciously and intentionally adopted.
 
I see. Thanks.
 
Supposedly, the willingness of the curials to invest considerable monies in the development of civic infrastructure and imperial symbols of ideology is indicative of their participation in local government and overall loyalty to the notion of a Roman Empire. I think that this is sort of crap as well.
Sounds like they think the Roman Empire worked like a game of Civ.
 
Delete me, please.
 
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