Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It's not much today but I did manage to complete the AI Data Sheet for the naval units.
Eating the elephant one bite at a time here...
Eating the elephant one bite at a time here...
Naval Units Rework Project
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
This really applies to unit combats but I've updated the Targeting and Defense Datasheet.
I've also now completed the Movement Datasheet. This one really begs for reviewing the wooden ships. I would not be against wooden ships potentially having greater speed than the first large steamers but shouldn't be TOO much more. Most wooden ships would feel quite comfy on shorelines as well and thus would have the bIgnoreTerrainCost tag (assuming this tag only works against exhorbitant terrain costs and not feature move costs as well) as under the design direction discussed with Faustmouse, the intention is to make coasts cost twice as much movement to help diminish the strike speed of a powerful coastal assault that can currently enable a player to take 2-5 coastal cities per fleet per round.
This strategic feature will also give cutters, pirates and corvettes, cargo and swarm ships a place to shine as they will be ignoring that terrain cost as well. So they can speed down the coastal corridor while the big ships must stay farther out to sea to have better movement speed. Corvettes, in particular, will be the masters of the coastlines, both in defense and attacks.
Of course, it's a moot point at levitation since bFliestoMove enforces a flat move cost (or rather it should... I'm not sure it currently does so as to keep grouped birds from being a problem - but that should be fixed at some point here...) and allows movement over all terrains.
This will be a great way to trump an ability to create a round's worth of ice in an adjacent plot that some ships will develop if/when they obtain frost beam weapons. (larger zones of ice will be generatable by Thermal Negation weapons.) This ice can deny the ability of transports to get their troops in (I may have to make it impossible to offload ships if you're able to ignore unpassable ice terrains so you can't come up from underneath and dropoff for those submersible transports that come later in the tree.) Additionally, plasma weapons should be able to destroy ice as they move into it but it would cost a whole round's action to do so.
Lots of stuff to program coming up as a result of this stuff.
EDIT:
And the Trade Datasheet is complete as well. Wooden Pirate ships should be given some extrapolation from this as well.
EDIT:
And the really fun one... the Combat Strength Datasheet is completed. I ranked things up at the far end of the scale since they'll be megahuge warships floating over the land and then extrapolated backwards from there and I think I've got a nice solid progression. Will probably take some rebalancing of other types to get it to fit quite right this way but it sets a standard at least.
I've also now completed the Movement Datasheet. This one really begs for reviewing the wooden ships. I would not be against wooden ships potentially having greater speed than the first large steamers but shouldn't be TOO much more. Most wooden ships would feel quite comfy on shorelines as well and thus would have the bIgnoreTerrainCost tag (assuming this tag only works against exhorbitant terrain costs and not feature move costs as well) as under the design direction discussed with Faustmouse, the intention is to make coasts cost twice as much movement to help diminish the strike speed of a powerful coastal assault that can currently enable a player to take 2-5 coastal cities per fleet per round.
This strategic feature will also give cutters, pirates and corvettes, cargo and swarm ships a place to shine as they will be ignoring that terrain cost as well. So they can speed down the coastal corridor while the big ships must stay farther out to sea to have better movement speed. Corvettes, in particular, will be the masters of the coastlines, both in defense and attacks.
Of course, it's a moot point at levitation since bFliestoMove enforces a flat move cost (or rather it should... I'm not sure it currently does so as to keep grouped birds from being a problem - but that should be fixed at some point here...) and allows movement over all terrains.
This will be a great way to trump an ability to create a round's worth of ice in an adjacent plot that some ships will develop if/when they obtain frost beam weapons. (larger zones of ice will be generatable by Thermal Negation weapons.) This ice can deny the ability of transports to get their troops in (I may have to make it impossible to offload ships if you're able to ignore unpassable ice terrains so you can't come up from underneath and dropoff for those submersible transports that come later in the tree.) Additionally, plasma weapons should be able to destroy ice as they move into it but it would cost a whole round's action to do so.
Lots of stuff to program coming up as a result of this stuff.
EDIT:
And the Trade Datasheet is complete as well. Wooden Pirate ships should be given some extrapolation from this as well.
EDIT:
And the really fun one... the Combat Strength Datasheet is completed. I ranked things up at the far end of the scale since they'll be megahuge warships floating over the land and then extrapolated backwards from there and I think I've got a nice solid progression. Will probably take some rebalancing of other types to get it to fit quite right this way but it sets a standard at least.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Withdraw Datasheet completed.
aaaand:
Pursuit Datasheet
as well as:
First Strikes Datasheet
and
Interception Datasheet
Feedback on all of these is welcome of course.
aaaand:
Pursuit Datasheet
as well as:
First Strikes Datasheet
and
Interception Datasheet
Feedback on all of these is welcome of course.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@TB
Sorry for not responding more to these.
However I have been making slow progress in trying to extract C&C units. No promises yet, but its a lot more difficult than expected.
Sorry for not responding more to these.
However I have been making slow progress in trying to extract C&C units. No promises yet, but its a lot more difficult than expected.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
No problem. I'm assuming no news is good news. I'm hoping to get through the datasheets and have all the stats sewn up by the weekend so I can start working on looking into some graphics assistance here myself.
Oh, and the Individual Unit Based Combat Modifiers Datasheet is also now complete. There are more modifiers that come into play but they do so via one of the last sheets I'll be working on which is the modifiers that apply to all units of particular unitcombats. If you'll notice, even though some few modifiers appear to apply to many OF a given type, it's not entirely across the board.
I added some defense and attack texturing in here as well to represent some deeper thinking that's taken place since this was posted last time for the ships as they were before the new AI lines were put in place too. Some overall attack modifiers for pirates, some overall defense modifiers for swarmships and corvettes (to add some counter-intuitive usefulness to these lines.) I figure for the pirates they start getting nearly as stealthy as subs later (just not as much firepower and military precision) and the smaller ships would be good for defending because they are more agile and reactive in naval warfare.
Oh, and the Individual Unit Based Combat Modifiers Datasheet is also now complete. There are more modifiers that come into play but they do so via one of the last sheets I'll be working on which is the modifiers that apply to all units of particular unitcombats. If you'll notice, even though some few modifiers appear to apply to many OF a given type, it's not entirely across the board.
I added some defense and attack texturing in here as well to represent some deeper thinking that's taken place since this was posted last time for the ships as they were before the new AI lines were put in place too. Some overall attack modifiers for pirates, some overall defense modifiers for swarmships and corvettes (to add some counter-intuitive usefulness to these lines.) I figure for the pirates they start getting nearly as stealthy as subs later (just not as much firepower and military precision) and the smaller ships would be good for defending because they are more agile and reactive in naval warfare.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Collateral Datasheet complete.
Bombard Datasheet complete.
Cost/Asset/Power Datasheet complete.
And very proud of this one:
Build Cost Datasheet complete. (The programming didn't copy but the values did... I've got the original programming on the spreadsheet on excel at the moment.)
Bombard Datasheet complete.
Cost/Asset/Power Datasheet complete.
And very proud of this one:
Build Cost Datasheet complete. (The programming didn't copy but the values did... I've got the original programming on the spreadsheet on excel at the moment.)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
And after MUCH effort:
Prerequisite Bonuses Datasheet (Resource Requirements)
There's a few resources in here that I need to make and a number of spots where I think more probably could/should be but I figure we can update the chart as applicable ones are added to the late game eras.
In the meantime, this suffices.
A hell of a lot of thought went into this and there still could be some margin for error. I'm sure anyone looking deeply into it will have some questions...
Prerequisite Bonuses Datasheet (Resource Requirements)
There's a few resources in here that I need to make and a number of spots where I think more probably could/should be but I figure we can update the chart as applicable ones are added to the late game eras.
In the meantime, this suffices.
A hell of a lot of thought went into this and there still could be some margin for error. I'm sure anyone looking deeply into it will have some questions...
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
That's a LOT of resource requirements! 
Also Quantonium Crystals should not be used on anything yet. They cannot even be obtained the game yet. They are basically special temporal crystals that exist outside of time and thus can be used for time travel related stuff. Please don't have them on any unit.
Also Quantonium Crystals should not be used on anything yet. They cannot even be obtained the game yet. They are basically special temporal crystals that exist outside of time and thus can be used for time travel related stuff. Please don't have them on any unit.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
As they'd been opened for trade under optics they had made for a good resource requirement for visibility against Cloaking... I can remove them though.
As for the volume, yes it gets to some rather large lists, but why we haven't been really thinking out what would actually be needed down to the smallest detail, given that we've defined the smallest detail, is a bit baffling. Besides, most of those resources won't be too hard to make sure you have. Just enforces that you don't ignore what appears now to be unnecessary 'needs'.
Platinum becomes an interesting modern-near future important prereq to make sure you get. It's one of the less common resources on that list. Its use in highly advanced electronics is the reason for the prereq.
In fact, it might be interesting if I gave myself a column to explain the reasoning for each prereq... would you want me to take a moment to go through and add the justifications for them?
As for the volume, yes it gets to some rather large lists, but why we haven't been really thinking out what would actually be needed down to the smallest detail, given that we've defined the smallest detail, is a bit baffling. Besides, most of those resources won't be too hard to make sure you have. Just enforces that you don't ignore what appears now to be unnecessary 'needs'.
Platinum becomes an interesting modern-near future important prereq to make sure you get. It's one of the less common resources on that list. Its use in highly advanced electronics is the reason for the prereq.
In fact, it might be interesting if I gave myself a column to explain the reasoning for each prereq... would you want me to take a moment to go through and add the justifications for them?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
1. I am not even sure why Quantonium Crystals even have a tech requirements since they are not even ready to be used yet.
2. Hmm I thought Electrolyte Cells already required Platinum but I guss not. (we can chnage that though)
3. Many resources you have may be redundant. Also we may want a building that makes like a ship resource in the same way that Tanks, Helicopters, Aircraft, etc have their own resource. This would reduce some of the basic requirements into a single resource.
4. Yes some explanations would be good, but explain them here in this thread and not on your online doc since its harder to read stuff on it.
EDIT: Nevermind it was Electrolyte Cells + Platinum Wares = Exoskeletons
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I've been reviewing and auditing this stuff a bit deeper this evening and noticed a few problems and will be updating soon but...
One that might not be: C02 Ice - I believe something's going to be necessary for creating an easy and effective coolant system for railguns so I made it a prereq for massive vehicular railgun applications.
Note, on pondering this I WAS wondering if most weapon and defense systems should have a resource behind it - that might help to simplify or at least explain better but it also means a LOT of various buildings will need to be generated (which may not be all that bad, just more of a long term plan.) Since I'd figured something along those lines would have to be thoroughly thought out for the equipment stuff I felt I should leave that as alone as possible for now until we gradually work through those needs when working up the equipment designs. At that point more of this could be reviewed and adjusted to suit that structure.
They probably needed one. They ended up in DH's list he provided that searched the xml. I was not aware any resources were in alpha phase still. That's ok though. Not a critical concern. I've updated my lists here to remove it.
For these kinds of chains that may cause redundancies they'd be very difficult to spot. I understand that a bonus can be a prereq for a building that then makes a bonus - it's just tough to track really. We need to compile a document that does show this for us if we're to really be able to easily follow it.
I really wouldn't like this approach for ships at all. It works great for the aforementioned because they did come in handy as prereqs for the ships but at some point the complexity should be embraced fully and given to the player to struggle it out what he might be missing... not everywhere, but here seems appropriate due to the massive complexity of these craft. Also, this would mean that each ship would pretty much automatically need prereq buildings - not against this but I'd prefer the building itself be located where the ships are to be made and that the 'resource' not be transferable to ports where the building isn't located. This would mean that the building prereq for creating these ships is made redundant itself. Also suggests no need whatsoever for an additional resource except to simplify the reading of the prereqs, which would just put the complexity at the level of the building itself instead, not really avoiding it for the player at all and possibly making it even harder to sort out.
If you have any you want specific justifications for, ask away. Looking through them, most seem obvious to me.
One that might not be: C02 Ice - I believe something's going to be necessary for creating an easy and effective coolant system for railguns so I made it a prereq for massive vehicular railgun applications.
Note, on pondering this I WAS wondering if most weapon and defense systems should have a resource behind it - that might help to simplify or at least explain better but it also means a LOT of various buildings will need to be generated (which may not be all that bad, just more of a long term plan.) Since I'd figured something along those lines would have to be thoroughly thought out for the equipment stuff I felt I should leave that as alone as possible for now until we gradually work through those needs when working up the equipment designs. At that point more of this could be reviewed and adjusted to suit that structure.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
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Why would you think CO2 Ice would be a good coolant system? It is not that cold, it is a solid substance so you can't pump it as good, and when it's heated up, you release high amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere. Also, in C2C I think it can only be found on the Moon and Mars, so you basically had to import it from there. Liquid Nitrogen is sooooo much easier to handle, more enviromentally friendly and cheaper.
I think CO2 is mainly there for space (-base/-colony) related stuff.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well.. this is why I open these things up for discussion. Some good points. Sadly, Liquid Nitrogen is not a current resource. I also don't know enough about either to be the best qualified to add it. I suppose I could simply take out the CO2 prereqs for now - though they do make good placeholders if someone were to add Liquid Nitrogen (hint hint)
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
What about a more generic "coolatant" resource? Then we don't need liquid Nitrogen, Liquid Helium etc...
Liquid Nitrogen is very cheap, but the liquid Helium for particle accelerators and stuff is much more expensive. You don't want to use it if Liquid Nitrogen could do the job.
Liquid Nitrogen is very cheap, but the liquid Helium for particle accelerators and stuff is much more expensive. You don't want to use it if Liquid Nitrogen could do the job.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Ok.
- BONUS_ROCKETFUEL - Why this for the ship vs BONUS_DIESEL?
- BONUS_FIBEROPTICS and BONUS_COPPERWIRES - Why together and not Fiberoptics replacing Copper Wires?
- BONUS_SYNTHETIC_RUBBER and BONUS_VULCANIZED_RUBBER - Why both?
- BONUS_NANOTUBES and BONUS_NANOGENERATORS - Nanogenerators are made of Nanotubes. Seems redundant.
- BONUS_ORGANIC_PHOTONIC_CELLS and BONUS_BIOPOLYMERS - Organic Photonic Cells are made of Biopolymers.
- BONUS_METHANE - Why?
- BONUS_CYBERNETIC_CHLOROPLASTS - Cybernetic Choloplasts are made of Novis Chemicals, Biolpolymers, Super Strong Alloys and Nanobots. Seems redundant to have those requirements too if you have this.
I think this is a good start for now. More questions later.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
A powerful hi-tech coolant would probably be a better approach sure. Sounds good to me.
So the trick is when to have it manufactured and by what.
2 reasons exist here.
1) The ship may need it for its missiles which we assume it will have plenty of when built due to Short, Medium or Long Range missile combat classes. So when the ship engine doesn't need it, it's most basic weapon systems may. If it can load missiles then it should be required to maintain a stock (or be able to maintain a stock) of fuel for those as well.
2) You may have noticed a new combat class, Jet Ships. See, right now we're beginning to build naval war vessels that don't burn standard oil products because they aren't using the normal propeller based engines. These ships are almost always Catamaran style in design and they use something much more like aircraft jet engines to propel them. Such engines I felt would represent a switch from diesel but may still use biofuel as well.
Fiberoptics, if I remember properly, are great for transferring data (much better than copper wires) but are probably still not the best conduit for simply passing a lot of electricity (a bit expensive for such a simple need if nothing else.) There would still be more basic wiring needs for some time to come.
Very similar justification to the above. Synthetic Rubber would be able to play some more malleable roles that Vulcanized Rubber (used for tires and such) would not and would also be more expensive so where it's not optimal to use, the Vulcanized Rubber would be. Eventually Synthetic does completely replace Vulcanized needs - greater proliferation and application of the technology brings the price down to comparable or cheaper rates and thus completely trumps all need for vulcanized rubber.
If it requires to have nanotubes to have nanogenerators then yes... I can fix that redundancy. There is a difference between them at the nano level, one not being the other at all but both only really finding their full potential with each other present, according to what I little know about nano stuff but if the game has nanogenerators requiring nanotubes then you're absolutely right.
Again as the nano stuff. Not only was I not aware of that BUT there's lots of applications in these ships where you'd use Biopolymers that aren't used for Organic Photonic Cells (which I made a prereq for weaponized lasers.) So if you could trade in Organic Photonic Cells and still didn't have Biopolymers of your own then you'd have an incomplete ship.
Not only was Methane suspiciously only useable in the very late end of the tech tree, it seemed applicable as a nano consumed fuel source in some but maybe not all nanobotic processes.
Well, again, you could be trading it in and not have the others which would really mean you would have an incomplete vessel!
I'm open to counter considerations.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Second discussion topic here...
Prereq buildings.
I feel ships are major undertakings that require specialized factories to build. We don't have these really, except in some spotty locations, most of which add to the build speed rather than form a prerequisite.
Personally I feel that these buildings should pretty much be just like the Cannon Forge and other similar operations, purely for unlocking the ability to build ships where constructed.
So I'd like to remove the production and experience modifiers for naval units from drydock buildings (and add some to fill the gaps - see below - and I'd suggest we go back further than steam in this as well considering drydocks have been used since classical era at least according to wikipedia) and make them simply prerequisites for building these more complex navies.
I also want to add:
BUILDING_NAVAL_RESEARCH_FACILITY: A prereq for building the Prototype Submersible - has a prereq of a local University.
Anyhow, anyone have any thoughts on this matter? I could see a few National, and possibly World Wonder prestigious drydocks that WOULD add XP and build speed... And we have a Naval Academy line that is good for XP awards from buildings.
EDIT:
I was looking at the xml and there seems to be some more development from Hydro in his module (some of which is both in the core and his module here!)
I think I might feel more comfortable allowing someone else to manage the buildings on this.
But the idea of making a drydock line of buildings (which there does seem to loosely be already) a line of qualifiers to build ships rather than enhancers of ships built I think is an important one to adopt.
I've got a Building Prereq Datasheet setup for it if someone who really knows buildings would be so kind as to help fill in for that.
Also: Some thoughts on Medical Ships... I'm thinking they'll be more for repairing boats rather than people. This means a hospital doesn't really fit as a prereq. But what WOULD fit as a prereq would be Scuba Gear. Perhaps Scuba Gear should be a new resource prereq...
Prereq buildings.
I feel ships are major undertakings that require specialized factories to build. We don't have these really, except in some spotty locations, most of which add to the build speed rather than form a prerequisite.
Personally I feel that these buildings should pretty much be just like the Cannon Forge and other similar operations, purely for unlocking the ability to build ships where constructed.
So I'd like to remove the production and experience modifiers for naval units from drydock buildings (and add some to fill the gaps - see below - and I'd suggest we go back further than steam in this as well considering drydocks have been used since classical era at least according to wikipedia) and make them simply prerequisites for building these more complex navies.
I also want to add:
BUILDING_NAVAL_RESEARCH_FACILITY: A prereq for building the Prototype Submersible - has a prereq of a local University.
Anyhow, anyone have any thoughts on this matter? I could see a few National, and possibly World Wonder prestigious drydocks that WOULD add XP and build speed... And we have a Naval Academy line that is good for XP awards from buildings.
EDIT:
I was looking at the xml and there seems to be some more development from Hydro in his module (some of which is both in the core and his module here!)
I think I might feel more comfortable allowing someone else to manage the buildings on this.
But the idea of making a drydock line of buildings (which there does seem to loosely be already) a line of qualifiers to build ships rather than enhancers of ships built I think is an important one to adopt.
I've got a Building Prereq Datasheet setup for it if someone who really knows buildings would be so kind as to help fill in for that.
Also: Some thoughts on Medical Ships... I'm thinking they'll be more for repairing boats rather than people. This means a hospital doesn't really fit as a prereq. But what WOULD fit as a prereq would be Scuba Gear. Perhaps Scuba Gear should be a new resource prereq...
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Completed the
Free Promotions Datasheet. Figured I'd go kinda light here. That way most promos are earned or well trained.
I was waiting until here to add a bonus to those AI type Swarm Ships for being self-detonating in combat but reviewing the promos we have none of them really seemed to fit for them. So I gave all of them an additional +30% attack modifier and defense modifier.
EDIT: Sidenote... I was going to do an Advanced Start Cost evaluation BUT I think we'd need to do it for every unit we have to do this at all properly. This is a whole project of its own I think. Anything I did here would be totally arbitrary so I figured from here I'd leave it alone and leave them all with what appears to be our default (100).
Free Promotions Datasheet. Figured I'd go kinda light here. That way most promos are earned or well trained.
I was waiting until here to add a bonus to those AI type Swarm Ships for being self-detonating in combat but reviewing the promos we have none of them really seemed to fit for them. So I gave all of them an additional +30% attack modifier and defense modifier.
EDIT: Sidenote... I was going to do an Advanced Start Cost evaluation BUT I think we'd need to do it for every unit we have to do this at all properly. This is a whole project of its own I think. Anything I did here would be totally arbitrary so I figured from here I'd leave it alone and leave them all with what appears to be our default (100).
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
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