Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

Thunderbrd said:

And that's actually, imo, the positive element in doing it this way. This is what I mean by streamlining. We can throw off our balance by overthinking and overcomplexifying. It would be easier and more 'game' appealing from the playing perspective if we simply know that all animals in their native habitat get say +25% combat benefit (both on attack and defense) and 1/2 mv penalties in their native terrain, while Predators (another stock free promo) get +25% on attack, Herbivores get a stock bonus retreat chance and Omnivores get +25% on defense.

The simplification makes it much more pleasing from the player's perspective and keeps us from developing headaches from overthinking the animals too much.

Click to expand...

The player's perspective won't be effected. They just need to move the cursor over the animal and it will say what the bonuses it has are. They'll do the same thing whether the bonuses come innately or via promotions.

By the way, I really like that word you used "overcomplexifying".

EldrinFal said:

I'm open to other suggestions, I just figured that would be the best way. The tags are there for attack/defense bonuses already, just not movement. Unless it IS already setup, but simply no unit has that in effect at the moment.

It seems like it would be easier than to create a promotion for every single feature separately.

Anyhow, let me know what you decide. I've made the number changes to the Movement and Combat Strength, but I'll hold off on the terrain/feature stuff until a decision is made.

Click to expand...

Well right now we have the following terrain related promotions ...

Arctic Combat I
- Double Movement in Tundra
- +20% Tundra Attack
- +50% Tundra Defense

Arctic Combat II
- Double Movement in Permafrost
- +20% Permafrost Attack
- +50% Permafrost Defense

Arctic Combat III
- Double Movement in Ice
- +20% Ice Attack
- +50% Ice Defense

Desert Combat I
- Double Movement in Desert
- +20% Desert Attack
- +50% Desert Defense

Desert Combat II
- Double Movement in Dunes
- +20% Dunes Attack
- +50% Dunes Defense

Desert Combat III
- Double Movement in Salt Flats
- +20% Salt Flats Attack
- +50% Salt Flats Defense

Rugged Combat I
- Double Movement in Barren
- +20% Barren Attack
- +50% Barren Defense

Rugged Combat II
- Double Movement in Scrub
- +20% Scrub Attack
- +50% Scrub Defense

Rugged Combat III
- Double Movement in Rocky
- +20% Rocky Attack
- +50% Rocky Defense

Wetland Combat I
- Double Movement in Lush
- +20% Lush Attack
- +50% Lush Defense

Wetland Combat II
- Double Movement in Muddy
- +20% Muddy Attack
- +50% Muddy Defense

Wetland Combat III
- Double Movement in Marsh
- +20% Marsh Attack
- +50% Marsh Defense

Fieldsman I
- -15% Hill Defense
- +15% Grassland Defense
- +15% Plains Defense

Fieldsman II
- -15% Hill Attack
- +15% Grassland Attack
- +15% Plains Attack

Fieldsman III
- -20% Hill Attack
- -20% Hill Defense
- +20% Grassland Attack
- +20% Grassland Defense
- +20% Plains Attack
- +20% Plains Defense

Woodsman I
- +25% Jungle Defense
- +25% Forest Defense
- +10% vs Animals

Woodsman II
- Double Jungle Movement
- Double Forest Movement
- +25% Jungle Defense
- +25% Forest Defense
- +15% vs Animals

Woodsman III
- +2 First Strikes
- Double Forest Movement
- Heals Units in the Same Tile Extra 15% Damage/Turn
- +50% Jungle Attack
- +50% Forest Attack
- +20% vs Animals

Guerrilla I
- +20% Hills Defense

Guerrilla II
- Double Movement in Hills
- +30% Hills Defense

Guerrilla III
- +25% Hills Attack

Mountaineer
- Can Pass Through Peaks

-----

What's missing are bonuses to ...

- Bamboo
- Sword Grass
- Date Palm
- Coconut Palm
- Prickly Pear
- Barrel Cactus
- Savanna
- Peat Bog
- Swamp
- Flood Plains
- Oasis
- Outcrops
- Kelp

I wouldn't think we'd want to stock adopt any of those into the animals... better to take them as templates perhaps but a more simple system of specially designed promos for habitat would be better than giving a free woodsman promo. These have become a bit more diversified than I think we'd want for our animals and have become a bit more uniquely asymetrical to their equivalents. For example, Hill Defense and Forest defense used to be identical but now have uniquely different benefits that go beyond just the mobility and combat benefits, such as +% against animals on Woodsman, etc...

I'm not going to say I completely disagree with you Eldrin, but it would be nicer for me as a player to just be able to glance at the promo buttons on the creature to get an idea of its native terrains than to read through the text. I tend to get lost in the text bonuses and such and more easily remember packaged details built into a unique sigil.

@Hydro

Thanks for the listing. That is actually very helpful when assigning them. I think a text doc would be useful too with the actual string verbatim. When I get some time, I'll put that together in similar fashion to the Features/Terrain/Bonuses file I made.

@TB

I don't think creating a whole NEW line of buttons and promotions is an effective use of system resources. Nor people resources. And it simply extra clutter that, in my opinion, can be handled more elegantly by the two simple tag additions to the XML.

If you are able to memorize what all those promotions mean by merely the image, I applaud your memory. Some of us though will still need to move the cursor over it to read the text, so I don't see a difference between doing so over the button or over the unit itself. And by your argument, it seems we should remove all of the innate bonuses/penalties to units and make them all promotions. It just doesn't make sense to me.

At this point, I can agree to disagree We don't need to argue back and forth.

@Dancing Hoskuld

Please decide how you want animals handled.

1) Set attack/defense/move bonus innately per unit. Two movement tag additions are required as I posted earlier. They are the same tags as used in the Promotions XML currently.

2) Create promotions for every Feature that include attack/defense/movement bonuses, and then add those to the animals.

3) Forego specific Features and simply give animals bonuses based on the existing Terrain promotions (as listed above by Hydro).

I agree we've debated it civily and I think we both have good points, honestly. You've caused me to sit on the fence myself. I see your points too. I can only argue for what I'd LIKE to see but I'm not the only one here and I can certainly agree with the assertion about 'people resources'. But then, I think both sides have gain and losses in People resources either way, wouldn't they?

Thunderbrd said:

I agree we've debated it civily and I think we both have good points, honestly. You've caused me to sit on the fence myself. I see your points too. I can only argue for what I'd LIKE to see but I'm not the only one here and I can certainly agree with the assertion about 'people resources'. But then, I think both sides have gain and losses in People resources either way, wouldn't they?

Click to expand...

hah Yes, valuable RL time is lost either way!

EldrinFal said:

@Hydro

Thanks for the listing. That is actually very helpful when assigning them. I think a text doc would be useful too with the actual string verbatim. When I get some time, I'll put that together in similar fashion to the Features/Terrain/Bonuses file I made.

@TB

I don't think creating a whole NEW line of buttons and promotions is an effective use of system resources. Nor people resources. And it simply extra clutter that, in my opinion, can be handled more elegantly by the two simple tag additions to the XML.

If you are able to memorize what all those promotions mean by merely the image, I applaud your memory. Some of us though will still need to move the cursor over it to read the text, so I don't see a difference between doing so over the button or over the unit itself. And by your argument, it seems we should remove all of the innate bonuses/penalties to units and make them all promotions. It just doesn't make sense to me.

At this point, I can agree to disagree We don't need to argue back and forth.

@Dancing Hoskuld

Please decide how you want animals handled.

1) Set attack/defense/move bonus innately per unit. Two movement tag additions are required as I posted earlier. They are the same tags as used in the Promotions XML currently.

2) Create promotions for every Feature that include attack/defense/movement bonuses, and then add those to the animals.

3) Forego specific Features and simply give animals bonuses based on the existing Terrain promotions (as listed above by Hydro).

Click to expand...

@Hydro you forgot he two terrain damage promotions, although I think we may need at least one more given the way terrain damage is implemented. Are we going to get terrain damage from the new terrains?

@Koshling, I like the idea of the extra two lists (tags) in the XML as being more flexible and faster to do and change.

Just a thought, but isn't strength 5 for the eagle (yes, I'm playing the SVN version currently) a little much? Most nations won't have any troops with strength greater than 2 while wild animals are around, so eagles tend to wipe out everything.

Nightguard said:

Just a thought, but isn't strength 5 for the eagle (yes, I'm playing the SVN version currently) a little much? Most nations won't have any troops with strength greater than 2 while wild animals are around, so eagles tend to wipe out everything.

Click to expand...

I thought I had changed it.... Looks like I did not put the new changes on the SVN.

fixed below
I believe i know why, you have DH6 listed for schema, but NO #6 in folder?

strategyonly said:

OK i am now getting ALL kinds of errors in the Zebra folder, not loading any of the files?

besides the one below, i get one for unitInfo and i cant remember which other one.


EDIT: I believe i know why, you have DH6 listed for schema, but NO #6 in folder?

Click to expand...

Fixed, I forgot I had to update the schema.

About the animals; shouldn't a bunch of animals be "DefendOnly", with a possible increased Withdraw Rate?
I don't know exactly what animals are added but at least Horse, Zebra, Onager, and other herbivore animals don't exactly search out and attempt to destroy other animals/humans. The same goes for a bunch of fish, Tuna, Whale, and so on.

Cheers.

From a players perspective i dont find it very appealing to roam around the countryside with a pack of killerzebras. the animals are great for the the research points, cultural boni and all the other goodness. making them viable military units should be relegated to the techtree, aka megafauna domestication and several animal trainers. just my two cents...

Thanks to SaibotLieh showing me how to tun off the 2nd texture I was able to make this. In theory I should be able to do it to some more animals I previously had trouble with. Yay.

@Dancing Hoskuld



Here is a Gemsbok. This should make for a good desert animal since we only have a few.

I may have better textured models for the existing ones in the near future now that I know this new technique. I will post the files when I do since it appears you already bundled them in your FPK.

BlueGenie said:

About the animals; shouldn't a bunch of animals be "DefendOnly", with a possible increased Withdraw Rate?
I don't know exactly what animals are added but at least Horse, Zebra, Onager, and other herbivore animals don't exactly search out and attempt to destroy other animals/humans. The same goes for a bunch of fish, Tuna, Whale, and so on.

Cheers.

Click to expand...

Some of this has been mentioned elsewhere and should be in v19 (v18 due out soon). The idea of putting them out as experimental is so that I can get feedback. In my latest game the whales are acting in that manner even though they aren't set up to do so. I am still debating on what to do with the whole sea critters idea, it is not the same as land units. As suggested elsewhere perhaps when combat occurs you get part of the myth even if you loose. So it is not subdued fish you bring home but the tall stories about them.

soltari666 said:

From a players perspective i dont find it very appealing to roam around the countryside with a pack of killerzebras. the animals are great for the the research points, cultural boni and all the other goodness. making them viable military units should be relegated to the techtree, aka megafauna domestication and several animal trainers. just my two cents...

Click to expand...

Already in for the v18 release.

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, or even if it's something you would consider. But I find it odd that animals like Zebra and deer etc are aggressive. Is it possible to make certain animals passive, so they have to be hunted?

EDIT: sorry I read the first 2 pages and not the last one, where my suggestion has already been dealt with. Please disregard

@Dancing Hoskuld

Here is a beaver. Whenever you put in the code for subduing make sure this one can spawn "Fur" resource like you have for Bison.

No picture this time. I am tired. Time for bed. I can loot some more later.

Enjoy!

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Some of this has been mentioned elsewhere and should be in v19 (v18 due out soon). The idea of putting them out as experimental is so that I can get feedback. In my latest game the whales are acting in that manner even though they aren't set up to do so. I am still debating on what to do with the whole sea critters idea, it is not the same as land units. As suggested elsewhere perhaps when combat occurs you get part of the myth even if you loose. So it is not subdued fish you bring home but the tall stories about them.



Already in for the v18 release.

Click to expand...

Nudge me when you make that change - the animal AI probably isn't quite right for defend-only units. I should likely tweak it a little or they are likely to come right up to you (thinking they can attack) to be shot!

A black cobra?

When killed an animal, resource placing chance should be reduced, imo. Just faced island with a lot of animals/barbarians, and when wiped all of them (there were bunch of wild board along with others) i see 5 pig resources (island is relatively small, fits in two screens in 1280x960 on default zoom.
As boar (just example) spawns on pig resource, and then place another when killed, this can multiply pigs a lot.
Same issue with bisons on late explored part of my main continent.