[Guide] Freedom's Science Victory

BruinBound · Feb 20, 2015

Acken said:
-On Deity RAs are definitely worth it. Try to get them at the right times (before changing eras, for them to end before the end). A quick PT is definetely recommended if you'll make RAs. I still suggest you get your science buildings going first with your money but extra gold should go into RAs as top priority on Deity. The ration of gold per beaker generated is really not that bad. More extra turns cut here.

Oh man, they are definitely worth it. I tried to give the "No RAs" a shot on my last Let's Play with the Celts. The extra gold for infrastructure/ city states by not using it on RA's can definitely help your empire, but there is a clear slow-down and the net effect had to have been negative.

Now my question would be which side of the rationalism tree to go down after Secularism? It would be nice if there was a clear rule of thumb, but probably go down the left side if you have a decent amount of quality RAs being signed and you think you'll maintain them in the future? Otherwise go down the right side for more of a core science boost and more GS?

Acken · Feb 20, 2015

I'm 90% sure the right side is almost always better. The university boost is approx 7% to 12% of a total science boost and if you have trading post its even better. Also more GS which are critical for a fast win. The RA boost would only boost a handful of RAs at best. I cant see it compete.

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

"Classic science game"

Hi Acken, i read this guide. It'is very clear. And watching your video i understand some basilar dinamic that make me win by science victory at turn 290 (with Babilonia until now) while last week i win at turn 400. good.

All the thing's that you write in the guide are really clear but i think that the main thing that make the difference and make you fly with the science is the polpulation!

There is only a thing that i cannot understand. And i think is the only real important for a normal player to make the difference. How you can have usually at the turn 160 over 35 of population in the capital! This i can't understand. I (think) i work all the food tiles and i have 22 population at the turn 160. I use 2 carovan in the capital for 8 food and play all the tiles for food...i can't understand.
All the thing's that you write in the guide are really clear but i think that the main thing that make the difference and make you fly with the science is the polpulation!

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

Acken said:
Hello everyone. Due to debates on the other thread I've spent a little time refining my freedom late game plan when going for a science victory so I thought I'll share how I do it here.
That thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=532958

This thread isn't really to debate whether Order or Freedom is better. If you want to debate that please do it in the previously mentioned thread. I'll just say Freedom has underrated strengths and leave it at that.

This guide is aimed to advanced players looking to shave off extra turns in their science victory.

Warnings:

This is based on Standard Size, Standard Speed. It can work in other settings but I never play those so I can't say. I know winning the world fair can be difficult on huge maps due to some AI making 15 cities.

The following strategy relies a lot on your ability to grab gold out of the AI. This can be difficult on low difficulties because the AI is poor. Also you'll lose one of the main strength of Freedom if you cannot get friends to get the gold from.

Also this guide mostly focuses on the post ideology part of the game. I'll give a brief summary of what should be achieved before then but for the basics surrounding early game science you will have to rely on another source.

Finally, some tips are based on a fast game. You will have to review some stuff with a critical eye if your game takes 300turns. For example regarding academies, I base my opinion on a 220turn game.

Games take me around 50-60 turns after ideology so I base my calculations on that when calculations are necessary in game

Why should you give it a try.
There are 3 main reasons to give Freedom a try when going science:
-It doesn't require coal to do good. This is important on low difficulties or when being way faster than the AI which is something that can happen even on Deity.
-It is not production dependent. Food and gold is all you need so don't worry if you don't have 3 cities able to pump out parts. As long as you can make Appollo and Hubble in reasonable times you're good to go.
-It's reasonably a different game than Order, so it's cool to break habits and try the new cool.

Pre-ideology goals in brief:

1. You obviously want to have planted all your cities by turn 100. I usually like 5 cities but if you can 6 is also a good option or if you don't think happiness will be manageable restrict to 4. For National College I personally have a preference with going 3 cities NC and then adding additional cities after it. Grow your cities as much as possible, work the scientifics slots, etc. etc. Classic science game.

Hi Acken, you say: "Classic science game".

I read this guide. It'is very clear. And watching your video i understand some basilar dinamic that make me win by science victory at turn 290 (with Babilonia until now) while last week i win at turn 400. good.

All the thing's that you write in the guide are really clear but i think that the main thing that make the difference and make you fly with the science is the polpulation!

There is only a thing that i cannot understand. And i think is the only real important for a normal player to make the difference. How you can have usually at the turn 160 over 35 of population in the capital! This i can't understand. I (think) i work all the food tiles and i have 22 population at the turn 160. I use 2 carovan in the capital for 8 food and play all the tiles for food...i can't understand.
All the thing's that you write in the guide are really clear but i think that the main thing that make the difference and make you fly with the science is the polpulation!

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

Acken said:
Grow your cities as much as possible, work the scientifics slots, etc. etc. Classic science game.
(to be continued)

Hi Acken, you say: "Classic science game".

I read this guide. It'is very clear. And watching your video i understand some basilar dinamic that make me win by science victory at turn 290 (with Babilonia until now) while last week i win at turn 400. good.

All the thing's that you write in the guide are really clear but i think that the main thing that make the difference and make you fly with the science is the polpulation!

There is only a thing that i cannot understand. And i think is the only real important for a normal player to make the difference. How you can have usually at the turn 160 over 35 of population in the capital! This i can't understand. I (think) i work all the food tiles and i have 22 population at the turn 160. I use 2 carovan in the capital for 8 food and play all the tiles for food...i can't understand.

phillipwyllie · Mar 2, 2015

Juan Sebastied said:
...How you can have usually at the turn 160 over 35 of population in the capital! This i can't understand. I (think) i work all the food tiles and i have 22 population at the turn 160. I use 2 carovan in the capital for 8 food and play all the tiles for food...i can't understand...

Some tips:
Settle your cities on the coast so they can be served with cargo-ships instead of caravans, but don't sacrifice excellent inland spots for mediocre coastal sites.
Settle near/next to rivers, in which every riverside tile is improved into a farm. When Civil Service is researched these farms get +1 food.
Complete Tradition asap. You get a free aqueduct in your first 4 cities without the need to research Engineering.
Perpetual WLTK day in your capital. Very hard to do as it's probably down to a bit of luck, but it should be a goal in every game you play. If an AI civ has the lux you are looking for you can buy it foir one turn, then DOW them. This is best if the civ in question isn't your neighbor, and of course don't have a DOF with them. Another route is to ally a CS that has your lux. Regardless of the route you only need it for 1 turn and the WLTK day stays for 20 turns even if you loose it.
Temple of Artemis. This has a pre-eat modifier to growth meaning that %10 is added to every cities food output.
Ally/befriend maritime CS. The bonus they give is added to yourt citie(s) base tile(s) so is multiplied with the ToA.

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
Some tips:
Settle your cities on the coast so they can be served with cargo-ships instead of caravans, but don't sacrifice excellent inland spots for mediocre coastal sites.
Settle near/next to rivers, in which every riverside tile is improved into a farm. When Civil Service is researched these farms get +1 food.
Complete Tradition asap. You get a free aqueduct in your first 4 cities without the need to research Engineering.
Perpetual WLTK day in your capital. Very hard to do as it's probably down to a bit of luck, but it should be a goal in every game you play. If an AI civ has the lux you are looking for you can buy it foir one turn, then DOW them. This is best if the civ in question isn't your neighbor, and of course don't have a DOF with them. Another route is to ally a CS that has your lux. Regardless of the route you only need it for 1 turn and the WLTK day stays for 20 turns even if you loose it.
Temple of Artemis. This has a pre-eat modifier to growth meaning that %10 is added to every cities food output.
Ally/befriend maritime CS. The bonus they give is added to yourt citie(s) base tile(s) so is multiplied with the ToA.

Ok, yes, the acqueduct without engineering, the cargo ship ok.
But i see some play in that someone (Acken is one of them) have much more polulation than my case without a city on the cost!

Aniway i don't understand this passage sorry (that could be very important): "Perpetual WLTK day in your capital. Very hard to do as it's probably down to a bit of luck, but it should be a goal in every game you play. If an AI civ has the lux you are looking for you can buy it foir one turn, then DOW them. This is best if the civ in question isn't your neighbor, and of course don't have a DOF with them. Another route is to ally a CS that has your lux. Regardless of the route you only need it for 1 turn and the WLTK day stays for 20 turns even if you loose it".
Can you try to explain me again? In particular i ignore what is WLTK (maybe the day of the king?) but all in general.
Maybe could be the passage that i miss to gain the missing competitivity. Another my mistake is that maybe sometimes i have prefer for some turns some hammers insthead of the food.
But the point is: turn 160 (for example) my population 22 and population of the guys that wins in 200 turns is 33/35 population.

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
Some tips:
then DOW them.

phillipwyllie said:
Some tips:
then DOW them.

ok, perfect i understand the WLTK! 25% more is not few...but what's mean DOW them? and what's mean "DOF with them"?
i miss this too unfortunately.

Definitively i think that this 25% perpetual (in a lucky match) + the never unhappy + the ever priority (never missing a turn) on food + fast 2 or 3 carovan (added to the fast acqueduct that i have already, traditionalism, an a spot not so fantastic) can give to me that 30% of population more that the faster scientific winners give to me!
I think.
If there is'not other way i think that can be the game of the population. What you think? I'll try soon i hope and try to understand if is true.

phillipwyllie · Mar 2, 2015

Juan Sebastied said:
...But i see some play in that someone (Acken is one of them) have much more population than my case without a city on the cost!...

Acken and the other Deity players are top players who every turn will check each city to see if they can squeeze a turn of growth/production. Also they spend(it seems anyway) a lot of time deciding what tiles to improve next, even stopping a worker mid stream to improve another. Although you should try to emulate their results don't be too disheartened when you don't.

Juan Sebastied said:
...."Perpetual WLTK day in your capital....

WLTK day=we love the king day which gives a +%25 increase to growth. This a post-eat modifier meaning it is applied to excess food.
Edit: I see you already know this

Juan Sebastied said:
...Another my mistake is that maybe sometimes i have prefer for some turns some hammers insthead of the food....

You want a balance between production and growth, except perhaps when building the National College(or an important wonder). You may want to try the Huns out as if you settle near cattle/sheep/horses you wont need to worry about growth and production once these tiles are improved.

Juan Sebastied said:
...But the point is: turn 160 (for example) my population 22 and population of the guys that wins in 200 turns is 33/35 population.

The trick is to know what tiles improve into what and if these tiles are buffed with a stable/stone works/petra etc. Another trick is when to improve them. For me the improve order is resources(for selling) then riverside farms. Another important building is the granary as it gives +1 food to bananas/wheat/deer, build this very early if you have multiples of these features.

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
Acken and the other Deity players are top players who every turn will check each city to see if they can squeeze a turn of growth/production. Also they spend(it seems anyway) a lot of time deciding what tiles to improve next, even stopping a worker mid stream to improve another. Although you should try to emulate their results don't be too disheartened when you don't.

WLTK day=we love the king day which gives a +%25 increase to growth. This a post-eat modifier meaning it is applied to excess food.
Edit: I see you already know this

You want a balance between production and growth, except perhaps when building the National College(or an important wonder). You may want to try the Huns out as if you settle near cattle/sheep/horses you wont need to worry about growth and production once these tiles are improved.

The trick is to know what tiles improve into what and if these tiles are buffed with a stable/stone works/petra etc. Another trick is when to improve them. For me the improve order is resources(for selling) then riverside farms. Another important building is the granary as it gives +1 food to bananas/wheat/deer, build this very early if you have multiples of these features.

Thank you. I'll try to make treasure of this too. The acken video is very very useful but the combination of them and my english knowledge give a not so fantastic results!

I ask you this..so, for a top player, the choice of what kind of victory conduct is not linked to the terrain condiction as would be for a normal player? i want to say that Acken or others can take the Mongolian, on a map with much (not so much

hills, and reach a science victory at the turn 260? I'm having this idea whatching his fantastic videos..

Lord Yanaek · Mar 2, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
The trick is to know what tiles improve into what and if these tiles are buffed with a stable/stone works/petra etc. Another trick is when to improve them. For me the improve order is resources(for selling) then riverside farms. Another important building is the granary as it gives +1 food to bananas/wheat/deer, build this very early if you have multiples of these features.

Riverside farms need to be built before Civil Service but are not necessarily a top priority. I often build 1-2 mines on hills ASAP to speed up Settlers (you don't need food at all while building them). After Luxes i almost always improve pastures before farms as they tend to give a mix of :c5food:

and

as do camps (the non-luxuries ones). If i'm lucky to find Bronze Working in a ruin, grassland iron is given a high priority as is stone if i have Masonry, i like those 2 :c5food:

/2

tiles early.

Farming riverside hills also allows some nice 2 :c5food:

/2

after Civil Service and i find this better than 3 :c5production:

Sometimes i build mine on those early and then put farms when i'm about to get CS, sometimes i put mines back later when i'm about to get Chemistry and :c5citizen:

is good. When you have several options for tile improvement, it should not be considered fixed forever.

Also i rarely put plantations on Bananas as 4 :c5food:

2

with Granary and universities is great.

I'm not the best player but i get better results now that i don't focus on growth alone early.

Juan Sebastied said:
ok, perfect i understand the WLTK! 25% more is not few...but what's mean DOW them? and what's mean "DOF with them"?
i miss this too unfortunately.

DoW is Declaration of War : You sell tons of stuff for that lux you want and then DoW to get your stuff back once WLTK day has triggered (it won't stop if you loose the luxury). Can be considered an exploit, worse than worker stealing for me.
DoF is Declaration of Friendship : you need it for Research Agreements (RAs)

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

Bob Morane said:
DoW is Declaration of War : You sell tons of stuff for that lux you want and then DoW to get your stuff back once WLTK day has triggered (it won't stop if you loose the luxury). Can be considered an exploit, worse than worker stealing for me.
DoF is Declaration of Friendship : you need it for Research Agreements (RAs)

Thank u very much!

Instead i understand by me that ASAP is as soon as possible! :cool:

very nice, great, the english abbreviation....in italian they are more more rare!

I understood the dinamic to DoW, what a trick!

But what do you (you singular and not) think about to steal workers to city state. By the moment i see that is easy to do i steal 2 or 3 from the city state so i don't have to produce one of them! But....is that really convenient in the middle period? because, doing that way, i lost the friendness of the CS and if it's merchant i lost the +3 or + 7 or +11 of happiness too that she can give me. And i have some problem of happiness with this super tall playng (and super good of course)..
Wathcing this super player playng style i slightly modified the concepts of tall and wide!

Acken · Mar 2, 2015

How good your capital is is map dependent, if you want to compare do it on the same map. Key factors for top growth:
-Working food as a priority
-Food wonders (HG and Petra)
-Getting food bonuses (WLTKD, Swords into plowshares, Temple o Artemis, Maritime CS)
-Finishing tradition early (for faster aqueducts)
-Never hitting unhappiness
-Feeding the capital with caravans/cargos

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

Acken said:
How good your capital is is map dependent, if you want to compare do it on the same map. Key factors for top growth:
-Working food as a priority
-Food wonders (HG and Petra)
-Getting food bonuses (WLTKD, Swords into plowshares, Temple o Artemis, Maritime CS)
-Finishing tradition early (for faster aqueducts)
-Never hitting unhappiness
-Feeding the capital with caravans/cargos

Thank u Acken.
I would compare but i cannot be able to

charge the map i don't know how to do. But aniway this was'nt the main problem.
Now i know the theory good, i think.

Just 3 thing: what is "WLTKD" and "Swords into plowshares" i don't understang.
2: u think is better to do NC on turn 60 or to make 2 other cityes?
3: i have some problem of happiness (but i make a sperimental match on prince so i think the IA has not many luxuries available to exchange i think)

Ps: i have a sigh of relief knowing that you use the HG and Petra....cause i think you don't and i think "hey this guy make that and not use the HG and Petra was really humiliating" :lol:

Ps2: i know that of course there is all in your video and I would pay

(but 2 or 3 gold x turn) but to have it in italian 'cause the language is a little a problem for me. Despite of this is goog for me the only video too. But it's more easy too to write here

Acken · Mar 2, 2015

Well I don't get HG and Petra everygame. I just listed as a potential growth booster.

WLTKD is "We Love The King Day" and Swords is a religious belief giving food.

Best opener is 3 or 4 city NC. I prefer 3 but sometimes 4 seems appropriate (rushable settler, ton of production etc).

Juan Sebastied · Mar 2, 2015

Acken said:
Well I don't get HG and Petra everygame. I just listed as a potential growth booster.

WLTKD is "We Love The King Day" and Swords is a religious belief giving food.

Best opener is 3 or 4 city NC. I prefer 3 but sometimes 4 seems appropriate (rushable settler, ton of production etc).

Ok, yeah i know the Sword believe (maybe 15% of growth) and i use often it. And i see that you don't ever nake HG.
I have a doubt if it is praticable (with equal standard) a wide science winning. I think u made some material and i will read it!

Juan Sebastied · Mar 3, 2015

Acken said:
Well I don't get HG and Petra everygame. I just listed as a potential growth booster.

WLTKD is "We Love The King Day" and Swords is a religious belief giving food.

Best opener is 3 or 4 city NC. I prefer 3 but sometimes 4 seems appropriate (rushable settler, ton of production etc).

I don't know if there is already a post talk about wide science victory, i don't have found it.
I would ask this, so i ask here 'cause aniway i understood that freedom should'nt go necessarily togheter with a tall/few city game!

So i ask: tall or wide? wich strategy give the better results? Better in absolute tall or they both could give excellent results, maybe finding an affine map for each of them

phillipwyllie · Mar 3, 2015

Juan Sebastied said:
...So i ask: tall or wide? wich strategy give the better results? Better in absolute tall or they both could give excellent results, maybe finding an affine map for each of them

I'll assume you want the fastest possible SV. That usually means wide, but on DCL#20-Spain Acken proved you can do a sub 200SV with 4 cities. On ICL-Egypt you might want 5. On DCL#6-Inca you can have 5 observatory cities. imo it is map dependent , but usually you want to go wide for a fast SV.

Juan Sebastied · Mar 3, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
I'll assume you want the fastest possible SV. That usually means wide, but on DCL#20-Spain Acken proved you can do a sub 200SV with 4 cities. On ICL-Egypt you might want 5. On DCL#6-Inca you can have 5 observatory cities. imo it is map dependent , but usually you want to go wide for a fast SV.

Thank you! Yes i was assuming fastest possible.
Thank you for the signalation of the DCL!
Aniway a 5 city (for science faster victory), being a 5 city game needs Liberty politics?

stormtrooper412 · Mar 3, 2015

No it doesn't, 5 cities is still filed under 'tradition' to be honest, but there's a catch, I think it's far easier to manage 4 cities, if you include land, build queues, and happiness, I often struggle to keep happy even with 4 cities, every luxury and Circus Maximus

[Guide] Freedom's Science Victory

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