Science Problems

I see that things like Tradition and Great Library being a necessity now, has been discussed on more threads. But I also see that Science has become problematic as well. Prior to BNW I could play on lower difficulties without the fear of falling behind in science, now that is not the case any more. On higher ones I don't have problems with falling behind because there the point is the gameplay and to survive as a civ. But on lower ones I always want to immerse my self and then I end up researching Flight in 1980s?! Science is truly the only thing that troubles me right now in BNW everything else is great about the game. So I just want to see if other people are having the same problems?

My proposal to fix the science is that they boost the science buildings, to make them more powerful. Prior to G&K University added 50% science and Public School added 1 science per every citizen (not 1 per every 2 like Library that is the case now). I really hope Firaxis will fix some of these issues in their Fall Patch. Because now Great Library and Tradition is a necessity, and not being able to build cities so fast as you could before. For me this breaks a little bit of sandbox style of the game, at least for the first dozen turns. I really hope this would be looked to in the future.

Mudrac, no offence, but I'm not quite sure why your science game has suffered as there hasn't been a nerf to science in BNW - are you playing with some super-wide empire or something? There's a penalty to science per additional city.

I know there is a science penalty now and no I don't play with super-wide empire. I like playing semi-wide, semi-tall. What I wanted to say is that now I can basically only build 1 city per era, and that Tradition and GL are a necessity now. Just wanted to say that it restricts the game a little bit.

No offense taken.

Here is my opinion:

GREAT LIBRARY BIGGEST WASTE OF TIME EVER!
(okay, I am exaggerating, but feel my point)

How many turns of production does it cost you, and what are you NOT building?

Tell us your build order.

Me: scouts, shrine, monument, grainery, worker

I need a capital of size 6+ by the time I make settlers, if you rush GL and then make settlers it takes usually you a few turns extra to make each settler. Losing those early turns of growth and production really hurts.

I am saying this as a player who beats deity with science victories. In a peaceful game, deity hasn't even come close to becoming a threat in science races. Even though deity builds the GL early, given a choice, I would not go for it until my key builds were done.

I also play mostly multi-player, and the other top players are not prioritizing GL unless in special circumstances for FFA (free-for-all.)

Here is a 160 turn science win (quick speed, cuz it is multiplayer training) and I would not have dreamed to waste early build with GL:


And yes, I used OP Babylon and got lucky start

Well I don't build Great Library right at the start. I build it when my production and population get a little higher. On quick speed, I build it when it took about 17 turns, I don't build it when it takes me 30 or 40 turns, I am not that insane.

Mudrac said:

Well I don't build Great Library right at the start. I build it when my production and population get a little higher. On quick speed, I build it when it took about 17 turns, I don't build it when it takes me 30 or 40 turns, I am not that insane.

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17 turns!

Opportunity cost is one of the most important concepts in Civ.

When you spend 17 turns doing something, it means you cannot be doing those 17 turns doing something else important. Those 17 turns need to give you a big enough reward for your time.

You do need a library, and the GL costs 123 hammers on quick speed (lib costs 50) so the extra cost is 73 hammers. Early in the game I usually need those hammers to either get my capital big or make settlers. If you are playing on a level where you can build the GL to pop a medieval tech and you don't have to worry about somebody stealing your wonder, than the math looks good for me. But if that is your opposition, than the game is yours to lose.

Here is big science concept = get capital huge ASAP. Make sure every tile capital works is a premium tile or a tile already worked (best if both.) Buy high yield tiles (like wheat) if your capital runs out of premium tiles to work. GET THOSE CARGO SHIPS/CARAVANS UP! Each internal trade route is like a hanging gardens, grow grow grow!

Making settlers - make sure your cap is 6+ and while making a settler, every tile is working a high prod tile = hill, iron, horse, etc. hopefully a worked high prod tile. That is like 9 LESS turns total making 3 settlers vs somebody who has tiny cap making settlers.

K, civ time over nap time begins now, zzz

Silverfuturist said:

Here is big science concept = get capital huge ASAP. Make sure every tile capital works is a premium tile or a tile already worked (best if both.) Buy high yield tiles (like wheat) if your capital runs out of premium tiles to work. GET THOSE CARAVANS UP! Each internal trade route is like a hanging gardens, grow grow grow!

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I agree with most of the post, but disagree about caravans, which are a complete waste of a trade route slot. GET THOSE CARGO SHIPS UP! would be my advise instead each of which is better than hanging gardens.

I guess tops in multiplayer do not build GL cause it is a risk. If u know that noone will build GL, i will for sure build it in cap instead of library. With Babylon it is a question since Bab have +8 science from GS, but for other civ - remember GL not only gives you free library and tech, it also gives +3 science, which is equavalent to library with 6 citizens.

joncnunn said:

I agree with most of the post, but disagree about caravans, which are a complete waste of a trade route slot. GET THOSE CARGO SHIPS UP! would be my advise instead each of which is better than hanging gardens.

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I edited the post to include cargo ships, yes cargo ships much better if you have a coastal city, when I think about civ I use "caravans/cargo ships" as the same term, an internal trade route to get extra food.

FrostK said:

I guess tops in multiplayer do not build GL cause it is a risk. If u know that noone will build GL, i will for sure build it in cap instead of library. With Babylon it is a question since Bab have +8 science from GS, but for other civ - remember GL not only gives you free library and tech, it also gives +3 science, which is equavalent to library with 6 citizens.

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Yes - the risk of losing an wonder is painful that early in the game, even if I think I can get the GL 80% of the time I won't try it, as those 20% of misses will be brutal. Through many hours of multiplayer against good players I have seen that getting the GL is not needed at all to win the game, so top players usually don't even incorporate it into their strategy, a risk not needed. Although... in team games the GL is really nice because the entire team gets the benefit of the wonder, so 1 person can rush it, usually with some chops. Plus in a team game, there is only 1 other party you have to race against in a wonder, vs 5+ in an FFA.

I hope I was able to hammer this point home to this forum that the GL is not a "must have" wonder.

Mudrac said:

I know there is a science penalty now and no I don't play with super-wide empire. I like playing semi-wide, semi-tall. What I wanted to say is that now I can basically only build 1 city per era, and that Tradition and GL are a necessity now. Just wanted to say that it restricts the game a little bit.

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What does "semi-wide, semi-tall" mean? In BNW, anything more than 4 cities (that you settle yourself) means you are playing wide.

Playing wide does cause you to fall back in science, so the key is to make sure each city you found/capture can make up for the 5% science penalty through growth. This means not settling cities on barren tundra or desert (unless you planning to get Petra).

Tradition and GL is by no means necessary to be scientifically advanced. You will fall behind a bit on higher difficulties, but you will eventually catch up and surpass the AI if you are playing right.

joncnunn said:

I agree with most of the post, but disagree about caravans, which are a complete waste of a trade route slot. GET THOSE CARGO SHIPS UP! would be my advise instead each of which is better than hanging gardens.

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Definitely disagree with you here. Food trade routes are very important in the game. If your important cities aren't important I'd nearly always prioritise a caravan food trade route over a cargo ship gold trade route. Food is far more important than gold, so as long as you're generating a moderate revenue, which is definitely possible without foreign trade routes, I'd argue if you're struggling in science it's much more useful to focus on growth.

mrwho said:

Definitely disagree with you here. Food trade routes are very important in the game. If your important cities aren't important I'd nearly always prioritise a caravan food trade route over a cargo ship gold trade route. Food is far more important than gold, so as long as you're generating a moderate revenue, which is definitely possible without foreign trade routes, I'd argue if you're struggling in science it's much more useful to focus on growth.

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But Cargo Ships can provide food too, and they provide twice as much of it as Caravans, so...

mrwho said:

Definitely disagree with you here. Food trade routes are very important in the game. If your important cities aren't important I'd nearly always prioritise a caravan food trade route over a cargo ship gold trade route. Food is far more important than gold, so as long as you're generating a moderate revenue, which is definitely possible without foreign trade routes, I'd argue if you're struggling in science it's much more useful to focus on growth.

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No, you are not understanding me. I mentioned a food cargo route; each one provides 2X the food as a mere food caravan.

The Great Library is a very good wonder on paper, but certainly isn't necessary to out-tech the AI (especially since on anything above King it starts getting very hard to get). As everyone is saying, food will get you science. What a lot of people have issues with in the "Tall Tradition" vs "Wide Liberty" the number of cities you should be settling. Wide doesn't mean ICS; I usually have about 5-6 smaller cities (depending in location) and usually 2 bigger cities for wonders, games, and science. Make sure you're getting the National College up early too. I usually try to get two cities (my core) and then build the NC. Once that's done, I plant the rest of my cities.

If you really need some science/happiness boosts, Patronage will help if you're particularly keen on CS, while Commerce will give you more gold and a bit of science. Obviously Rationalism helps and Order has a lot of nice policies the complement a wide scientific strategy.

Silverfuturist said:

17 turns!

Opportunity cost is one of the most important concepts in Civ.

When you spend 17 turns doing something, it means you cannot be doing those 17 turns doing something else important. Those 17 turns need to give you a big enough reward for your time.

Click to expand...

I agree with your major point. There are a lot of good points on this thread and the big theme is GL is not needed and best not to shoot for. Although I agree there is one big carrot to hang out there and think about . What is your strategy for this game and Civ. For instance one reason why I love the GL is that you get a chance to shoot ahead early game and have access to a tech or Social policy that your opponents don't.
If you are able to save up 500g to get a settler out to a good/great location to begin to build very important buildings and units and you are really confident of getting the GL or above confident I say go for it. If you are able to build cities and units in order to be diverse at the same time you have covered all grounds.
For instance lets say you wanted to rush get a tech to have a certain unit that will allow you to conquer your neighbors coveted city that you wanted to found or their capital. GL was worth the investment. Or if you get a free social policy for being able to jump to the tech that gives you access to the Oracle. Bam. If your going Honor you get to your GG or other important Honor codes that allow you to be a military force quicker. Just a thought.