ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln

True. It's only a matter of who'll make the first step. Since Sisiutil's going to prepare for war anyway I hope Monty starts it, so that we don't get any penalty from declaring war on anybody's friend.

Wow, a lot to catch up on from the US holiday weekend.

With a block like this, the Apostolic Palace could be a major factor soon. Fortunately, I'm guessing that Theology was first discovered by HC before his demise given the dates of the religions discovered. Plus, right now only Zara knows Theology so maybe it will be less of an issue. We should hope that's the case because others could vote you out of a war with Monty at any moment if a Buddhist builds the AP.

Trading for Feudalism is a great idea if it can be done. I'm not sure if it's better to revolt into Vassalage then or wait for Civil Service and get the 50% bonus for Washington, which is doing quite well. If you go for Bureaucracy, I guess NY starts doing the heavy lifting on the Longbows. Some CG2 longbows will certainly slow Monty's invasion stacks down.

One last note: you have Buddhism, Taoism, and Confusionism in your cities with two of the shrines. You have copper, which speeds all 3 of those cathedrals. You are in good relations with a huge block of Buddhists that won't break up until Free Religion, and in very good relations with your neighbor Hatty. Could we consider cultural here, or is it already too late?

What's that religion joke? I never thought you had the guts to do it.

Then again, I didn't believe you had the guts to go warring too. I keep remembering your early games when you played like a . .. .. .. .. .. How much you've changed indeed.

About giving up the great library though: I guess being philosophical means it doesn't matter so much, but not because you've moved up a level and want to be realistic. Actually, the GL becomes more powerful as you go up in levels. But sure, other than that, you've played very well in this game.

I was sad to see you upgrade your woodsman2 warrior to axeman

He would have been able to get to woodsman3 with a great general, and I think that makes a better mash unit than a chariot. As Charismatic, I'm quite certain that you can get awfully close to wood3 med3 with one GG, so I don't think you need to worry about leadership. If I'm not mistaken, wood3 stacks with medic upgrades on another unit, doesn't it?

Other than that, I think you've done a great job! That's a huge buddhist block on the go there, so hopefully you can build good relations while taking over the Aztec lands.

carl corey said:

True. It's only a matter of who'll make the first step. Since Sisiutil's going to prepare for war anyway I hope Monty starts it, so that we don't get any penalty from declaring war on anybody's friend.

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That's my thinking. If I have to, I'll provoke him. It shouldn't take much doing; this is Monty, after all.

sylvanllewelyn said:

About giving up the great library though: I guess being philosophical means it doesn't matter so much, but not because you've moved up a level and want to be realistic. Actually, the GL becomes more powerful as you go up in levels. But sure, other than that, you've played very well in this game.

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Believe me, if the situation had just been slightly different--if I'd had almost anyone except Montezuma to my immediate west, or even if he'd been there but with another target on the landmass for him to attack, I would have made the GL a priority. It's by far my favourite wonder, after all, and with Philosophical, it's hugely powerful.

The advice that I should pursue Aesthetics on Immortal and above before Alphabet makes the GL even more accessible and attractive, to my mind, since you're then a jump up on everyone else to researching Literature, a very cheap tech. Also, I've noticed that the AI loves to pursue Aesthetic's wonders once they get that tech, diverting them, I often find, from pursuing the GL.

The point from Chrispy about the AP is well-taken. If a Buddhist builds it, I may have to defy a resolution or two to keep the war against Montezuma going. The from defying a resolution is temporary, but the diplomatic penalties from a DoW against a friend can be permanent. And I'd rather not give Monty 10 free turns to build another stack.

My battle plan with him is to let him come at me and exhaust his stack trying to take a city loaded with Spearmen and (I hope) Longbows. Once he's destroyed one stack against my defensive forces, my offensive forces take one of his cities. He'll likely attack that city with his next stack, which I defend by moving the bulk of my defenders from his previous target city to the recently-taken one; rinse and repeat.

From a strategic standpoint, I plan to take those 2 cities due west of Washington and Boston first, then capture the city due north of Boston. That should relieve Boston from pillaging as Monty focuses his efforts on the captured cities. The main drawback to cottaging Boston right now is its vulnerability to pillaging. Once those "buffer" cities are captured, I plan to move south through his core cities, including his capital, then swing north to take his newer cities--which should be a bit of a cakewalk by that point.

I don't think I'll vassalize him. He's a horrible techer. Though he might make a useful pet dog if I keep gifting military techs to him. Thoughts?

Monty is the best source of land you have. His jungle will become your cottage paradise. I say conquer him totally, cottage up, and go for a space or diplomatic win.

The only thing you need to worry about (other than kicking Monty's behind) is if he'll vassalize to someone else before you finish him. Otherwise I'd say take all you can from him. That's good land he has, and he doesn't know how to use it well.

About his power: most of it comes from having lots of cities, so I don't expect his army to be too big. You still need to build yours up of course, but once you start rolling I expect an easier fight than you think right now.

you could use the ten turns of peace to switch civics a couple times. then once more when the war is actually going

CivCorpse said:

you could use the ten turns of peace to switch civics a couple times. then once more when the war is actually going

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Would you quit with this civics change obsession of yours?!?

Lets see, taking aesthetics befoee the ai would have gained you all those techs you had to research yourself, openened up literatuire and the H and NE and had you gone to Music first you'd have got a great artist. A 6000 boost of culture would have kept machu Pichu secure for a good few turns and added that religion. 5 religions with four shrines and a 50+ bouns to science in your main science city isn't to be sneezed at. That 's all spilt milk, now. Oh and you wouldn't have had Hatty found a CITY right on your border - thanks Hatty. You've even given her an open invitation to found another up against New York's border.

Engineering with its pikemen, further movement, espionage, trebuchets and castles would have been a better bet than metal casting. More spilt milk. You could use philiosophy for feudalism and engineering. It is rather late now. You've given Monty 80 turns to prepare an army for you. That he offered peace so early was because he intended to REX. He REXed and now comes his army.

I thought the plan for this last round was to finish off HC, take the two barbarian cities and then probe Monty's defences. Going OR would have helped more whilst you were building infrastructure. You have no way of reaching his inner cities and are laid out before him by comparison. You have no sentries out there, so have no idea where his main force is going.

The silver lining is that Zara won't want Monty to make too much American mince. That and your forges in New York, long bowmen and crossbowmen, macemen and knights with a bit of luck and speedy research. Make that lots of luck and some backs to wall defending. Look to capture Nubian and try to take cities in peace treaty you can raze. Mont'y bad enough without the you razed our cities penalty.

Sisiutil said:

Would you quit with this civics change obsession of yours?!?

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I'm just bitter because i got my @r$e handed to me the first time i played this map. Though i did have really really bad luck. Nearly continuous slave rebellion in the capital. Only one hut which gave exp and then a bear ate me 2 turns later. And then it was Monty-time.

Scarredroman said:

Lets see, taking aesthetics befoee the ai would have gained you all those techs tyou had to research yourself, openend up literatuire and the hE and NE and had you gone to Music first you'd have got a great artist. A 6000 boost of culture would have kept machu Pichu secure for a good few turns and added that religion. 5 religions with four shrines and a 50+ bouns to science in your main science city isn't to be sneezed at. That 's all spilt milk, now. Oh an you wouldn't have had Hatty found a CITY right on your border - thanks Hatty. You've even given her an open invitation to found another up against New York's border.

Engineering with its pikemen, further movement, espionage, trebuchets and castles would have been a better bet than metal casting. More spilt milk. You could use philiosophy for feudalism and engineering. It is rather late now. You've given Monty 80 turns to prepare an army for you. That he offered peace so early was because he intended to REX. He REXed and now comes his army.

I thought the plan for this last round was to finish off HC, take the two barbarian cities and then probe Monty's defences. Going OR would have helped more whilst you were building infrastructureYou have no way of reaching his inner cities and are laid out before him by comparison. You have no sentries out there, so have no idea where his main force is going.

The silver lining is that Zara won't want Monty to make too much American mince. That and your forges in New York, long bowmen and crossbowmen, macemen and knights with a bit of luck and speedy research. Make that lots of luck and some backs to wall defending. Look to capture Nubian and try to take cities in peace treaty you can raze. Mont'y bad enough without the you razed our cities penalty.

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What game are you playing? It is 190Ad on immortal. You are talking about having civil service/lit/music and engineering? And how did you get engineering without machinery which requires metal casting?

Sisiutil said:

My battle plan with him is to let him come at me and exhaust his stack trying to take a city loaded with Spearmen and (I hope) Longbows. Once he's destroyed one stack against my defensive forces, my offensive forces take one of his cities. He'll likely attack that city with his next stack, which I defend by moving the bulk of my defenders from his previous target city to the recently-taken one; rinse and repeat.

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Protective, anyone?

I don't think I'll vassalize him. He's a horrible techer. Though he might make a useful pet dog if I keep gifting military techs to him. Thoughts?

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Is it worth the negative diplomacy with your two best friends?

Don't vassalize Monty. His cities will produce units just as well under your rule.

Sisiutil said:

I don't think I'll vassalize him. He's a horrible techer. Though he might make a useful pet dog if I keep gifting military techs to him. Thoughts?

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I want to repeat my warning to not let Monty become a vassal of anybody as it will likely negate the chance to circumvent WFYBTA via all friendly relations. Monty and Hatty are at the very extremes of the BasePeaceWeight scale and thus have huge negative hidden modifiers for their attitudes.

ps.: Hammy's Ivory would be very nice to have for a war vs. Monty since he loves to train a plethora of Horse Archers (especially the Immortal Monty). Once more, Good Luck.

CivCorpse,
Sisiutil has 6 turns to finish research metal casting, whereupon he can trade for machinery with philosophy, if he is lucky. Then research engineering or bulb it with the coming GS. Was there a way to get there sooner? I think so. In fact, I think Sisiutil's Strategy guide describes a way to get early engineering.

Literature and Music aren't that more expensive than the techs Sisiutil did research and maybe someone has CS and wants Philosophy.

Scarredroman said:

In fact, I think Sisiutil's Strategy guide describes a way to get early engineering.

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No, that's Astronomy, and it's in my Intermediate Tactics and Gambits guide.

Do GS lightbulb Engineering? I've never seen it as an option. Under what circumstances?

Since I'm considering abandoning the Liberalism race as well as chasing wonders, I may be able to research/lightbulb Paper and especially Education and trade them for worthwhile techs.

Scarredroman said:

Sisiutil has 6 turns to finish research metal casting, whereupon he can trade for machinery with philosophy, if he is lucky.

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According to the tech screen which Sisiutil posted Zara is the only one with MC, and he doesn't have Machinery yet. Since it would take two AIs getting Machinery for one of them to trade it this seems extremely unlikely.

Scarredroman said:

Then research engineering or bulb it with the coming GS.

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It's pretty much impossible to bulb Engineering with a GS. Among several other requirements you have to skip Fishing to block the whole seafaring line IIRC.

Scarredroman said:

... maybe someone has CS and wants Philosophy.

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Again according to the tech screen nobody has CS at this point. Only 3 have the pre-reqs to research it and 2 would have to research it before any trade would be possible.

I suppose the best approach might be for Sisiutil to research MC->Machinery->Engineering and hope to be able to trade for CS at some point. Although that could delay maces.

Arguably, pikes and trebuchets are more important against Monty (and his mounted fixation) than maces. With enough trebs, swordsmen are fine. The choice of CS vs. Engineering may come down to which tech path is easier research- and trade-wise.

civ4legs said:

I was sad to see you upgrade your woodsman2 warrior to axeman

He would have been able to get to woodsman3 with a great general, and I think that makes a better mash unit than a chariot. As Charismatic, I'm quite certain that you can get awfully close to wood3 med3 with one GG, so I don't think you need to worry about leadership. If I'm not mistaken, wood3 stacks with medic upgrades on another unit, doesn't it?

Other than that, I think you've done a great job! That's a huge buddhist block on the go there, so hopefully you can build good relations while taking over the Aztec lands.

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How does his upgrading the warrior to an axeman having anything to do with woodsmanIII? It didn't lose any XP and axemen can get woodsmanIII as well. It cost some money but its not like he had the GG when he needed the axe to capture cities.

Also, you are wrong. When healing which ever unit has the best healing rate will be used period. The only stacking that occurs is within the same unit to determine its effective healing rate.

Also, pretty sure (and agree) that the first GG will not be used as a medic so odds are the woodsman axe - pretty sure he's still alive - will get woodsman3 at least for some basic healing and possibly some additional experience at which point with the 2nd general we may very well have a Super-Duper Medic.