Getting Started

It's true some resources have weak yields, but there's reasons for that. You probably noticed how Civ V has realistic, broad swaths of terrain... huge mountain ranges with lots of hills... wide deserts... and so on. They use the bonus resources to balance this in areas that need particular types of yields. Any change to resources (such as what Valkrionn and I are doing) will necessitate a slight adjustment to this once we have access to the c++.

Regarding the Granary, here's the rationale behind it: This was actually a bonus on the resources themselves at first. Requiring a building was somewhat of a nerf to that, while simultaneously improving the otherwise-weak granary.
 
Personally, I preferred the 0 maintenance granary to the resource bonus grocer.

Now that cows and the like the get +1 F +1 P I think they are fine without another bonus.

I just always felt that there should be a few default buildings that are good to build in every city. Alpha Centauri had the recycling tanks. I think the monument and granary are good candidates in Civ V.
 
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<Update>
<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_WONDER_CHICHEN_ITZA_HELP" />
<Set Text="Speed of building plot improvements increased by 75%." />
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I was going through your code (learning how you do this) and if I am not mistaken, the Civiopedia update for Pyramids has been instead done for Chichen_Itza. This is building and wonders V.2.
 
First I want to thanks not only Thalassicus, for the great work he's doing, but everybody who participate on the forums. It's great to know that lot's of people are interested in making Civ V a better game.

After reading some pages of ideas from everybody, here's what I want to say right now...

- the "food bucket" idea doesn't sound very good to me, tough I understand it's reasons. I'd stick with the food caravans, builded like settlers, and the idea that trade routes could give food. But +2 per route is too much, and it should be added to a mid/late tech or building, rather then the granary, otherwise cities would grow too fast too early...

- about the water tiles, I think +1 Gold in coast tiles would be reasonable, this way coast would give 2 Food 3 Gold with lighthouse, wich is pretty decent. I think that if you apply this to ocean tiles things could get unbalanced. And +2 science in whales resources with university sounds good and realistic.

- altough the balance mod make the most common tiles better, I see grassland + horse giving me only 2 Food 2 Hammer, or cows giving 3 Food 1 Hammer... In Civ 4 a city built near these resources was desirable, but now it seems that only the strategic and luxury resources indicates where you should build a city. I think this need to be discussed, 'cause this tiles need to be better.

- I think granary has become OP! +2 Food plus +1 per food resource in the very beggining of the game is too much...

That's it for now... Thanks again everyone for the good discussions and the applied results.

I am not a fan of the food bucket either, but nor am I a fan of caravans that deliver food - that was tedium incarnate back in civ 2. I rank it up there with having to shoot from my cities. As it is, i wish i could have my cities automatically attack the weakest unit within range every turn.

I think tying food to the trade route system makes the most sense and is the most controllable. I agree that food transit might should wait until the classical era to start, and perhaps the renaissance to really get moving.

Maybe the Granary can add food per wheat. (Just a low-end boon)
Perhaps the Market should add the Merchant, the 25% gold and +1 food per trade route. (Low boost)
The Seaport could add an additional +2 food per trade route (total of 3 per route).
And perhaps late industrial/early modern the "Grocer" could add another 3 food per trade route (modern cities are huge).

Which reminds me - a "Grocer" sounds late-period. Right now it's available early. I'm not a big fan of it Thal. I think simply adding food to food sources seems redundant. The resources should be either increased in value, or the improvements increased in value. Having a building increase them seems ...wrong.

EDIT: I just read your response above. I get how a building is a step back from the power of resource boons. But why not simply tie technological advance into resource boosts? Tech does this already. The building is very out of place and counter-intuitive.
 
Thalassicus, now I understand your point regarding the granary, and with the +1 Food the tiles would be okay, but after reading the opinion of QES I agree that tech boosting the tiles would be better than buildings in this case, maybe Civil Service. That said, the food resources don't need to receive another boost at all, BUT I think that Horse should receive a extra Hammer, or even Gold.

And about the Food Caravans, now that I think about it, it would be a pain in the ass to command or to watch the moving of the tons the AI and some players would build... A trade route system would work best, and actually, it's concept it's exactually of caravans going through the cities...
 
The one downside of trade routes is that they only represent internal trade.

I wish trade routes could be established or represented with other cities/nations.
 
Maybe it's an idea to have certain buildings affect trade routes. For example a windmill gives +1 hammer to the the network if there's improved wheat nearby. The granary gives +1 food if there's improved bonus resource. etc.

This shouldn't stack ofcourse. So whether you have 1 or 10 granaries the bonus stays +1 food for every city (granaries could be nerfed to +1 food to compensate for this early boost though)

Ideas:

Granary, +1 food with food resource
Windmill, +1 production with wheat
Lighthouse, +1 gold with sea resource
Mint, +1 or 2 gold with silver or gold
University, + 2 science to trade network with jungle nearby (possibly replacing current jungle bonus)

plenty of possibilities to improve trade networks.
 
First of all, thanks Thalassicus for all your great mods. It really improves my game time :)

Second, I haven't done alot of research or thought about it, but maybe if it's possible someone could add a new specialist [Traders?, Caravan or whatever] to the granary, so you could put someone in it, and it takes the additional food from the best "food improvement around" and when you get, let's say 30 "stored" food, a caravan/traders appear and you can send it to another city to put one point of population in this one?

Sorry for my english it isn't my main language. I sure hope someone can understand what I said :)

Edit: Maybe it would be simplier to just store the granary food [+2] bonus and when you have X food stored, a new citizen appear and you can send it somewhere. That way Food specialized town could help your empire.
 
I posted this in the new food thread, but I also want to add some points that can be discussed here...

"My thoughts of bonuses given by the trade routes are that every route grants +1 Food, +1 with railroad connection (that includes the harbor) and finally +1 with refrigeration."

The point is to give more importance to trade routes, as well as some more realistic bonuses. For example, I think that +1 Gold per route with Economics and another +1 with Globalization are good additions that wouldn't unbalance the game.
 
I found 19 balance mods when searching for 'thal' in the browser, inc the 'Big Balance Economy Mod'. Is this sfe to install alongside the smaller 'Balance' mods? Thanks
 
I was going through your code (learning how you do this) and if I am not mistaken, the Civiopedia update for Pyramids has been instead done for Chichen_Itza. This is building and wonders V.2.

The civlopedia entries are actually all switched around for several buildings. Instead of changing the entry, the developers got a little lazy and changed which entry the building referred to.

Which reminds me - a "Grocer" sounds late-period. Right now it's available early. I'm not a big fan of it Thal. I think simply adding food to food sources seems redundant. The resources should be either increased in value, or the improvements increased in value. Having a building increase them seems ...wrong.

EDIT: I just read your response above. I get how a building is a step back from the power of resource boons. But why not simply tie technological advance into resource boosts? Tech does this already. The building is very out of place and counter-intuitive.

This is all explained in detail on the mod's page and in the readme. There's several reasons:

Spoiler :
  • Granaries are buildings used for storage. Traditionally these have had a storage mechanic in the Civilization series, but no longer do in Civ V. As a result, any concept of an institution that increases the food available in a city could accurately describe this building. Granaries are also typically not a prominent part of cities, more common in rural areas where the grain is harvested.
  • The &#8220;Grocer&#8221; has precedent from Civilization IV, where it provided a bonus to cities with access to food resources.
  • To improve the value of several food resources, the +1:food: bonus was added. Placing this bonus on the building instead of the resource itself has the simultaneous effect of improving this building's usefulness, which has been frequently cited on strategy forums as somewhat underwhelming in cost-effectiveness. It also follows precedent from the Mint and Monastery. It would not be logically consistent with a granary concept, however.
  • While the term &#8220;grocer&#8221; has only existed since the 1300's, the concept of people in a marketplace specializing in edible goods has existed before then. The word &#8220;grocer&#8221; seems to be an accurate way to describe this type of person or institution, even if other words were used in earlier times or different societies.


In addition, there have been concerns reducing maintenance on too many buildings can have a slightly destabilizing effect on gold availability in late game, and in weighing opportunity costs for development.

It is not possible to tie technologies with resource boosts using XML edits. It has to be on a building, or available from the start on the resource/improvement itself.


I started a new thread to discuss specifically food so we aren't thread-jacking

It's perfectly alright to discuss things here, gives me a consolidated place to read thoughts for new mods to create, like the newly-added specialist and embarkation mods. Many of the ideas tie in with existing mods, too. That said, if you feel a project is turning into a larger spin-off it's okay to create a new thread too, so what you did is a good idea. Thank you for the assistance. :)

I found 19 balance mods when searching for 'thal' in the browser, inc the 'Big Balance Economy Mod'. Is this safe to install alongside the smaller 'Balance' mods? Thanks

Ooops, forgot about the possibility my name might be in other mod descriptions. And unfortunately, some of the components on the mod browser are outdated, but I cannot remove them due to a critical crash bug in ModBuddy.

Just download the mods listed on the first post of this thread. If you want them all, you can also simply download the ZIP file attached to the first post (see instructions on first post).

I'll clarify that some, thank you for asking your questions.
 
It is not possible to tie technologies with resource boosts using XML edits. It has to be on a building, or available from the start on the resource/improvement itself.

Well...shoot.


Welll, I suggest erring on the side of "more food throughout the game." Population growth should grow at incredible rates late game, but even boosting it early would not be something too terrible. (The suggestion here being remove the building and just boost the resource or improvement)

More citizens isnt really a bad thing, everything would simply scale in what is considered a "small" "medium" and "large" cities. Plus it would make specialists buildings more used.

More food per tile is also nice because pillaging then would have severe impacts.

Just my two cents.
 
Now to go back and address some things from while I was busy at work this week. :)

Spoiler :
A few thoughts on a another playthrough (I actually finished!).

Notes:
Japan Diplomatic Victory on turn 723ish circa 2030's
Prince Difficulty
Continents, Standard Size, Random Resources, Epic Progression

I played a culture whore. I had a small pennisula which was insulated from the rest of the world and this let me try to make a little industrial/economic powerhouse.
I only ever made 3 cities.

Thoughts:
1. I like my factory adjustments. While not quite rushing to steam power (factories), I did manage to get them about in sync with history, if not a bit late. (On epic everything seems to happen MUCH later than in history). The 100% (up from 50%) production boost and 3 engineers is NOT as powerful as one might imagine. In the epic progression, costs are SO high that the difference between a factory and no factory is really just a few turns. I noticed something akin to 25% fewer turns to produce a building or unit.
2. I like my wealth adjustment. With the factory at 100% boost and 3 engineers, it becomes possible to milk wealth a bit more once you've a productive city. Granted this means your production city isnt producing anything else, but that is the downside.
3. Strategic resources come in two flavors. A) "I dont have any" or B) "I cant spend what i have" I'm pretty sure that my seed gave me "fewer" resources than normal, as everyone seemed starved for resources. But once you had city-state contacts, resources were plentiful and useless. (I noticed that if i try this strategy i keep as small an army as possible.)
4. With everything "scaled" there is nothing really different from the standard progression to epic, other than odd research timing and unit movement (with more turns units move equivocally faster). However, there are not really "more units" or "more buildings" the long build times are a pain.

The factory change does make sense from a realism perspective, it's the sort of change that's lower on my priority list for now though. I'm focusing mostly on improving weaker things in the game, and factories are quite powerful as-is.

I agree strategic resources seem a little out of whack. Reducing all iron/horsemen works for mid game when you have tons from your own empire and city-states, but really hurts early game. I've been trying to think of a way to deal with that. Basically, my feeling is (just to balance the default game) each civ should start out next to ~3 of a strategic resource, and each city-state should have just 1. I'll see if there's any way to do this through xml.

You have a point about unit build times on slower game speeds. That was sort of the whole point of them in previous versions of civ, to be able to build and use units longer. It's also a very interesting idea to shift to basically a supply method, with more emphasis on strategic resources. It sounds like a really interesting idea for a mod, I'll put it on my to-do list to explore it.

Spoiler :
I dont know if i think coastal cities are weak. I had my capital last game within range of 4 fishies, i had the colossus, among other nice bonii.
Kyoto reached 37 in size O_o and held most of the worlds wonders. Easily half or more of its total area was water.

I will agree that without the colosus, and fish the sea is a bit meaningless. Buildings should be able to fix that. As the point of the sea was less about "what's immediately in the area," but rather "what's out there in the world."

Sea-cities should be focused on coat tiles, which more or less could represent shipping coming into the docks.

I think coastal cities need about 5 total buildings spread out through the ages.

Lighthouse - As is. (local fisherman bring in more food)
Docks (classical era)- coastal or river city, Connects to trade route, +1 :commerce: per trade route, +1 :commerce: along river tiles
Harbor - +25% Production of naval units, +1 :commerce: to coastal tiles , +1 merchant slot
Seaport - +1 :hammers: per sea tile (better than per resource), +25% production of naval units, +1 Merchant slot
Wharf (industrial era)- Adds 1 :food: to all sea tiles for each fish resource worked.

A few notes on the ideas above
-It would be nice if having enemy ships near a city turned OFF these buildings' bonii. This would make blockades very dangerous and make sea warfare more important.
-Docks bring the trade route effect earlier and affects rivertowns too. Roads were not a major connection of trade-routes until empires formed. Rivers and the sea were first. Presumably the rivers connect to the ocean and then back to the capital to produce the connected trade route.
-The Wharf produces a LOT of food, however this is in the industrial era when populations should be getting big and specialized anyway. Also it'll produce unhappiness naturally. Just remember that each coastal tile is a tile without an improvement. So the biggest effects would be on those towns which havent had much love for most of the game.

One thing to be cautious about is:

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ~ Antoine de Saint-Exuper

It's easy to add new buildings, resources, improvements or such here and there to solve problems, like adding workshops to improve production. I feel there's something to be said about the philosophy of a small, tightly-knit weave of concise buildings and techs though. As such, I'm focusing primarily on existing agents to improve the game. There's a few exceptions: it makes sense to have a modern-era shipyard building for example, and follows precent from the production/xp differentiation for buildings that improve land units. Might put some bonuses on it other than XP, too.

Now, there's unfortunately no way to boost one of coastal/lake/ocean tiles specifically, it's hardcoded to be all water or nothing. So I'm working on a few such balances... added some :commerce: and :science: boosts to water tiles with Harbors and the Research Lab in the latest update of the Terrain Improvements mod.

The idea of +1:commerce: on river tiles if you have a sea-related building is actually a rather cool idea.

As for sea resources, they are already rather good, and don't seem to have a community sense of weakness like land resources had.

Spoiler :
To further expand the topic of "why are metropoli (so is this the correct plural in english? Good to know :D) usually on coasts", I'll go a bit out of "gameplay" topic, so feel free to skip this wall of text while I make a little example:

Between AD 1650 and AD 1700, the world saw the birth of the very first, true metropolis: It was called Edo, the modern Tokyo. Around that age, Edo reached 1 million people, which was an incredible number if you consider that in the meanwhile London had around 500,000 and Paris 300,000.
London and Paris numbers aren't really mindblowing if you think at what you call a "metropolis" today, aren't 'em? And yet, they already weren't self sufficent for food and were importers, of course, but half a million people can still be rather easily fed without intensive farming on land, the surrounding farming cities can be enough. And we are at the doors of the industrial revolution already.
Those, and many more, were built on water because in ancient times, water WAS the best source of food: no fertilizers and no pesticides to discover to maximize production, water was "fertile land" all year long, not just half of it. However, as time goes by, and fishing towns become large cities, agriculture discovers new ways of increasing production, while fishing is really more or less the same now as it was centuries ago. Yeah, we now have ships able to fish in the arctic seas without fear of sinking, but the methods used are just quite like the same, and so neither their "productivity" has gone through the roof as agriculture - and population - did.

Another big point is transportation: cities as Paris and London, demographically speaking, could have had a much higher population back then, even with the higher mortality rate: fact is, without modern transportation vehicles and infrastructures there wasn't any efficient way to ship huge cargoes of foodstuff between longer distances, without fail and in big quantities: once they came to be, food surplus from other areas specialized - as the industrial revolution taught us - in farming let 'em grow in population accordingly, reaching today's skyrocketing numbers.

USA is a good example of transportation relevance: the biggest cities on the east coast were - of course - the first to be settled for a mere geographic reason. While the central area of the continent was being explored, and slowly settled and turned into productive land, they were the political and industrial hub of the nation, but still dependant on shipments from the old world, both of food and machinery. And, while those shipments were consistent, there weren't infrastructures to efficiently transport sizeable quantities of food much further inland.
Once North America was finally completely settled, they already were population heavy cities, and since they were cutting ties with Europe, as such the inland area was dedicated to be the source of their food, as fishing definitely wasn't a main source. Slavery itself was in no small part a "natural" historical consequence of the need of setting up a massive farming output for a populous area somewhat suddenly forced to be self sufficient in a rather underdeveloped land (indipendence or not, there was an ocean between the two continents, shippings could only fulfill up to a certain requirement, especially with the means we had back then). Naturally, to grow food in large quantities, you need a lot of land, not a lot of people, and as such those areas are much less populated.
This demographic map of the USA still today speaks for itself:






Now, how could Tokyo - the only seeming exception - reach that (still relatively) huge population back then? Well, just think at what was the common diet in japan since just a few decades ago (and, to an extent, still today): rice. Fish was for the elites in Edo, most people lived on eating mostly rice and only rice for centuries, much different from what happened in Europe where even if wheat was the main source of food for the common people, they still had a lot of other agricultural products. Why?
Edo didn't born naturally as most metropoli, it was built over a small town just to be the new political capital, as a way for the newborn leadership of the finally unified Japan after the Sengoku period to centralize the power, weakening any potential threat from feudal lords forcing 'em out of "their" land, and imposing on them a huge expenditure to transfer their courts to the new "forced" capital. As such, Edo grew exponentially in a very short period, and to sustain such population agriculture nation-wide was further heavily specialized - almost to the point of leaving no space for anything else - on a food product easy to grow in large quantities even on a relatively limited amount of land. Literally half of Japan was dedicated as being the "food production line" for just one city!
If they could get by with fishing, they wouldn't have needed such extreme measures, wouldn't they? ;)




Going back to game talking (phew! :lol:), about food specifically, now, what's the problem with CIV at somewhat representing this reality? That it has self-sustaining cities, instead of a general, empire-wide pool for food as it has for strategic resources, gold, science and culture (gold, science and culture are produced locally just as food, but they apply on empire wide features). As such, the city producing more food will be the most populous one aswell, the opposite of what often happens irl, while the gold producing city might see most of its gold income spent on another one. There's no way to really reproduce that complex behaviour unless you completely change how the game works, so we have two choices :

- through indirect changes of the game's balance, we make it so coastal cities are always able to grow the same - if not more - than inland ones, so that once an empire is fully developed its demographics may look a little more like real world demographics. Two issues though in this approach imho: 1) it all happens magically, those cities don't grow more because of how you actually played the game, better representing reality and a "food chain mechanic", they just end up, coincidentally, looking a bit more like it, no gameplay enhancements at emulating history... so... why bother, what's to gain? and 2) de facto, you overpower - from vanilla - a component of the game for the sake of a "reality" which still the game is unable to represent clearly... with all the potential balance issues this might bring to someone's tastes.

- reason with a logic suited for a simplified, alternative version of reality where settlements are exclusively self sufficient. It's not real here, but it's real in this gameworld. If that's so, logic would dictate that yeah, those cities should be smaller, as water shouldn't be as good as farm lands. Good counter argument would be: "ok, but if that's not to be compared too strictly to reality for gameplay balance, why not just pretend water in this gameworld IS as good as farms?". At which I would reply, yeah, I can take it, and be happy seeing my coastal capital able to skyrocket in population as it probably would in real even if it now happens only because the seas are more productive, but on the other hand I'll also see that scientific frontier outpost in Greenland do almost the same. And that, I can't swallow ;)

Now, if sometimes "weaker" coastal cities were a gameplay issue, then there would be no point in discussing this, it's a game, gameplay has the priority over reality. But I don't see a gameplay issue with coastal cities: even if they are "weaker" (something I'm not really prone to say wholeheartedly as I find in my style of playing they usually are quite efficient for me), they don't hurt anything. At worst, you just know that your coastal city will be less productive than your inland one, so you'll base your production queues accordingly, as your opponents AIs do. And coastal cities already often make for some of the best wealth specialized cities, now that TPs aren't so imperative, which isn't "weaker" in my book, just different.
Rather, it seems to me that the reasons encouraging this possible "boost" to water is either for realism sake (on which I already far too much extensively explained why I think it would actually do the opposite) or for a reasoning I don't understand: "land produces so much, as such, for balance, water should too". Well, land produces so much, mountains don't. Why don't boost mountains? Even in reality, they are a source of income, just think how much money from tourism the Alps bring to the surrounding countries... but reasoning like this, it would be an endless boosting of each and every feature, and then back at further boosting the first ones because now they suddenly seem "unrealistically" underpowered compared to the new ones.

The boost to improvements and resources made by this mod was to balance a gameplay issue: underwhelming improvements brought many players to spam trading posts instead of more varied improvements, detracting from the game fun. It was needed. With boosted improvements, now water looks a bit weaker than before on comparison... but even if it is, the gameplay doesn't suffer from it, I believe.

Just my... well... two billions thousands cents, I guess :crazyeye:

I'm a modder, so Metropoli is the correct pural for me. The English language is so inconsistent sometimes you just gotta say things that make sense. :lol:

Very interesting read. You have some good points, and I'll leave coastal cities as-is now that the current updates are done. I added your :science: idea in the very late game to Research Labs, to represent oceanic research exploration, and +1:commerce: to harbors, leaving them still weaker than a grasslands river tile.


Spoiler :
First: The readme of the Buildings and Wonders file loads Icons for me now.

Second: I want to report on a playthrough I did with the Modset.
I played France, Pangea, Emperor difficulty, Standard Speed.

Most interesting thing is propably this: I pulled a cultural Victory (without "cheating" with Culture pooling) by 1958 (turn 378) with 8 full cities (and later in game 4 puppeted ones). I got more than 800:culture/Turn
The Victory was not unconstested - Ghandi had just finished the Appollo Project and Japan held most of the continent with only my Capital remaining to his Victory.

I think this was only made possible by some of the changes here, namely:

  • The Liberty Policy giving city lvl 2 instead of 1,5 really helps early game.
  • The 100% instead of 50% happiness added to culture helps.
  • Most Importantly: The increase in :hammers: and :food: in several places helps cities different than the capital to flourish. In previous games they were always lacking behind a lot, with crappy size and hence production. Not this time. I managed to build one and only one Wonder in most of them (for the Freedom Policy). All in all I did not have many wonders. Ghandi and Persia got most of them, but I got some.
I would hence consider the cultural victory fine for medium size Empires. (e.g. this 8 cities one). Frances bonus sure helped, but not end-game.

Apart from this, I noticed that the AI was always busy pumping units into my lands and even managed to capture one of my cities - and was not far from victory. This may be due to the AI changes - it may also be due to the Emperor difficulty

I'm glad you're getting some experience with the Liberty change. Patronage and Honor have been considered so much stronger than Tradition and Liberty, it's nice to see someone getting use out of Liberty with the policy balancing. Slightly larger, more productive cities does lead to more flexibility, I'm glad that made the game more fun for you.

Part of your experience with the AI might be due to the slightly increased production, allowing them to field and replace units more quickly. I did adjust their city development and improvement priorities some too.

Spoiler :
As far as the reason why coastal development, at least in ancient times, was that it was far FAR cheaper to transport anything bulky via sea than land. I read an estimate that it was cheaper to ship from end to end of the Mediterranean than it was to move it 50 miles overland during the peak of the Roman empire. The same would've applied to navigable rivers.

This is not the place to implement this change but I had an idea, that perhaps tiles not next to a potential trade route (coast/river/road) get half gold/production. Note, next to so a road would cover the 6 tiles surrounding it, ditto with coast while river would only affect the 2 tiles adjacent. Would certainly make rivers/coast as desirable as they have been historically. The problem is how to balance what would almost certainly break early game balance. Anyone unfortunate enough to get a landlocked, non-river start, would be screwed.

The power of oceans for transport is very true even in modern times. Oceanic travel is by far one of the least expensive methods of shipping per ton, possibly close to railroads, though I'm not sure about the specific numbers between the two. It's far better than trucks, and astronomically better compared to air travel (air travel also has a colossal carbon footprint... a single flight can double the carbon you expend in a year compared to never flying). It's been a few years since I looked at details of rails vs oceans, but I'm pretty sure oceans are significantly on top. It helps to have a nearly frictionless surface and not worry about gravity. :)

You're right that emphasizing trade routes would be both interesting and dramatically change game balance. I think rivers are ok, already so important, and any significant boost to roads would make them spam-desirable again probably.

Thanks for these mods! The unofficial patch especially gives me hope for the future of the game- if they don't officially fix stupid UI things and make important information easily accessable, I know someone will. Thanks for the optimism! :goodjob:

Glad I can help! I'm sure all the issues in that patch will be done in an official one soon, though the changes were so easy there's no reason to wait. If they haven't improved the civlopedia in the next month or so, I might sit down and go through it, adding missing detail here and there.

Spoiler :
I agree with most everything you said, but there IS a way to represent the specializations of the coastal regions.

Considering the scale, the "middle of the country" is not the city - it's the farm improvement off int he middle of your territory. Cities are not citys so much as the "center of the region utilizing a population across the board.

The ONLY real 'people in the city' are specialists. As they work in buildings, everyone else works on tiles (out in the country.)


If you want to emphasize urbanization, the easiest way to represent this is to have specialists A) mean something B) become more and more common (and numerous) as the game ages on, and C) by increasing food supplies for situations in which large urban areas are necessary.

To represent coastal populations, the sea needs to make food, LOTS of food. In land-locked cities, even a farm-heavy city is just the industrial center of what is, effectively a agricultural area (Ohio cities, Texas Cities, Minneapolis or Chicago.)

If specialists represent urban populations (which if you thought about it like being on a tile, mean every specialist in a city +1 works on tile, for each other citizen working additional tiles.

The problem is simple - country folk are more efficient. A citizen working a tile with an improvement brings home more bacon than does any amount of specialists.

If this were altered, through policies, technology, or through buildings, so that specialists could compete and perhaps OUT-PRODUCE individual tiles, urbanization would become more obvious.

For coastal cities, i think this simply means having buildings bring in lots and lots of food from coastal tiles. Coastal cities should be the largest in the world. All that food then would go towards enhanced specialists which would then represent the urban productivity.

I do like the idea of making specialists a little more common. There's lots of buildings which would be logical to have a specialist or two on, and by reducing their great-person potency slightly it'd be easy to balance.

As for coastal cities, as mentioned above I chose a middle ground between powerful and weak coastal cities: a bonus to gold and - in late game - research, but nothing more (for now at least). Will be adding a modern Shipyard building later, but that's more oriented towards navies and not city development itself.

Spoiler :
That was an interesting read! This makes me wonder whether it would be feasible, from a gameplay perspective, to modify the way food works in Civ games, to basically make it the way gold currently works. Gold is accrued in every city but you can spend it wherever you want. Why can&#8217;t we do the same for food? Let food be accrued in every city the way it is now, but allow the player to distribute the food to every city according to the player&#8217;s needs/wishes.

From a realism perspective, the ability to distribute food should come along with a tech in the later ages, as I imagine in real life during the earlier eras cities would get their food from the surrounding areas, but as technology progresses, this would no longer hold true, and food could be distributed to each city as the empire/government saw fit.

Right now we have our gold cities and our science cities, and the ability to distribute food would give rise to food cities, and really it might add a layer of (hopefully fun?) complexity to the game that a few people seem to want. For example, you could have a city that has really good production (lots of hills) but really low food and thus population is taking forever to climb and you would like to reach the optimal production levels of the city faster. You could distribute more food to this city, allow it to grow faster and thus allow to reach its maximum production capabilities sooner.

Anyway, just my thoughts, feel free to ignore :)

Nationalized or semi-nationalized food supply is something I've always wanted in Civ to be honest. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I miss the supply crawlers from Alpha Centauri. They provided semi-nationalization without being tedious to micromanage.

Spoiler :
Another and final thought for my evening:

Can "First strike" promotions be reintroduced? I rather liked them. The only units that should bombard should be artillery.

All "ranged" combat units then could be given first strike (non-obtainable) promotions.

First strikes would be damage delivered (like now with ranged attacks) prior to melee.
Units would both apply their first strike damage to their opponents, damage would be distributed, THEN melee combat would begin (at the new strength levels). For units which attack without a melee attack, combat would end immedately after the first strike round. (Archers, Crossbowmen).

The number of first strikes should be dependant on the fire rate and/or range of the weapons available.
Archers would have 2 first strikes (but low strength) and no melee attack
Crossbowmen would have 1 first strike (but higher strength) and no melee attack
Musketmen would have 1 first strike and higher strength WITH a melee attack
Riflemen would have 2 First Strikes and high strength (representing volley distance/size) and a melee attack.
Infantry and rough near equivilants would have 3 first strikes and a very high strength and a melee attack.
Mechanized infantry would have 4 first strikes OR even higher strength.

Sea units could follow similar rules.

Aircraft should not be affected by first strikes at all.

I know first strikes and combined units are somewhat more realistic, but from a gameplay perspective I like the ranged and melee method in use. It's a simple and elegant way to make positioning important in combat. I haven't ever really felt distances between tiles are meant to be accurate, it's all just an approximation.

You could always experiment with a mod like this though, no need to restrict your creativity to just what I do! :)
 
@Thal

-Regarding first strikes-
My modding ability is poor. I tend to throw ideas at people whom I see as having a general concept of the game that I agree with and better talent in coding than I have. I dont hate ranged-combat (only city-shooting). I just saw your series of mods (while you may consider them modular) to be the beginnings of what will eventually become somewhat of an overhaul.
Perhaps this is not your plan, but this is certainly the makings of one.

-Coastal Cities-
You're right on the premise that simpler is often better. My approach to things is to saturate with ideas and see what sticks. Fewer coastal buildings is likely better, and your balanced approach to coastal cities makes sense. I think another thing that would make coastal cities more important is if naval combat were far more crucial - at that point having more cities that could produce naval units would itself become more crucial. So perhaps the answer doesnt lie in resources, but instead the value of sea-dominance.

-Specialists and Industrialization-
I think we agree here. I understand you dont want to change the fundamentals of the game, i respect that. But I do feel it's a bit odd that the industrial to modern era's have more of a feel of fealty and feudalism than they do ubran industrialization. I think that a drastic "shift" in the feel of the game during the industrial revolution would be a value-add to this game, not an over complication that would reduce fun.
In fact, making the game have a quasi-time table in which the power sphere shifts from "big empires" to "small" would create an interesting strategic dynamic. Do you go early for geographical dominance? Or wait and become an industrial powerhouse later?

The major issue with this is that people might just "sell off cities" and this cheesy tactic should be shunned. (Diplomacy needs an overhaul too.) But ignoring that single tactic which might have another solution. The switch to industrialized specialized nations strikes me as a crucial dynamic that we can implement if we decide to.

Even big empires can industrialize, it's just harder and takes longer. (Russia, China). I think that the current 'costs' of factories are fine, for example, so long as their output is significant. Because then a huge empire trying to build factories will take significantly longer than it would for a smaller nation to fully industrialize. It's merely an issue of speed, I feel.

The benefit of specialists (either advanced specialists which have increased resource output), or more specialists with larger populations, would mean that smaller (taller) empires would be able to compete with the geographical monstrosities.

-Gamespeeds-
I actually did some tweaking with unit-costs on my own and discovered that lowering unit costs actually had a very negative impact. The biggest consequences were that everyone was able to produce units very quickly, which meant that the utility and value of individual units dropped dramatically. As unit production was increased significantly - the ability to replace lost units became second nature. It then became far more important to replace quickly than use wisely. The other consequence of this was that cities became "tie-breakers" and defense became very very easy. When everyone is able to produce many units, and those units may only take up 1 tile each - the city became the additional power in the local area. Which means that defense and not offense became the main advantage. It was terribly interesting.
And I have to say, I'm no longer a fan of reducing unit build times like I thought i would be. It simply created opposite (and much worse) problems.

-Unit adjustment-
I wonder, and this might be a pipedream, if Units might be able to be given MORE HP. The Barracks line of buildings, what if instead of providing upgrades and XP, instead provided additional HP? Just raw Hitpoints. So that a unit produced from a barracks and armory city would simply be "larger" than a unit produced raw from another city? Combat alone could produce experience (which makes some amount of sense anyway) while barracks represent the larger force made?

I think it would behoove us to have tougher units produced from military cities. And it would have the additional benefit of representing "more units" without actually having "more units" out on the map. A 20HP unit would be the equivalent of 2 10HP units, AND be in one tile, AND do combat simultaneously. This would make barracks buildings VERY important. (I'd think 5 HP per building would be a roughly acceptable number)

Edit/Add: Actually, if it's possible at all, i think i'd change the Barracks line to do that myself - if i knew it was A) possible, and B) something i could manage. Sadly, I dont understand how to make mods and tend to alter original files (with backups copies of the original).

Edit/Add:
-Strategic Resrouces-

I think Iron should matter through every era of the game. Horses, perhaps not - but then perhaps cavalry should be far more potent than it is, make it a kind of "blitz" resource early game, and perhaps higher grades of cavalry require MORE horses. (Lancers perhaps need 2-3 horses to represent the overall larger size of their cavalry forces)

The easiest way would be to have some units require more iron (modern age?) This makes sense especially with the Barracks HP boost. As this would represent larger armed forces anyway. Also, Ironclad and later ships should require LOTS of iron, ridiculous amounts, frankly.

-Speaking of ships-
Ships should have melee attacks. Triremes all the way to frigates tended to board one another. "Shoot-only" didnt really happen until ironclads and later, and at that point they usually shot at each other simultaneously (simultanious damage).. As "ranged" represents sneak attacks or unanswerable damage. Why not give submarines exclusive rights to "ranged" attacks. If the issue is with bombarding shore lines - i'm not sure what can be done.
 
I'll take advantage of your comprehensive list of replies QES, now that I'm back after a few days of painful study and japanese classes, to get back into the debate :p

Spoiler :
-Coastal Cities-
You're right on the premise that simpler is often better. My approach to things is to saturate with ideas and see what sticks. Fewer coastal buildings is likely better, and your balanced approach to coastal cities makes sense. I think another thing that would make coastal cities more important is if naval combat were far more crucial - at that point having more cities that could produce naval units would itself become more crucial. So perhaps the answer doesnt lie in resources, but instead the value of sea-dominance.

I'm with you here. One of the reasons I didn't like the idea of boosting food on coastal cities is that I like when different cities built in different geographic areas are good at different things and develop differently. It's the whole point of "strategy". From that premise came my first idea about the Harbor to make it useful not in production per se, but as part of a tree of buildings to boost sea units comparable with the barracks/armory etc we have for land ones.
Unfortunately, the value of naval warfare is pretty erratic, as it is drastically dependant on the kind of map you are playing: on an archipelago map buildings to give XP or free promotions to ships would be extremely useful (let aside the blatant AI issues, such as AI ships not replying fire, as we are talking in prospect, we should take into account future fixes to the AI, either from patches or - more likely - by modders), while on continental or pangea maps they would be pretty useless, as you might just end up using a couple ships to soften up some coastal city's defenses. So it's a bit hard to say "let's buff this and that" and be able to really have a consistent "balance" gain.

While that approach is the best imho to balance the game while preserving diversity, I fear we need more advanced modding efforts (and tools) to really bring this hope to complete fruitfulness: by editing units and their abilities.
The missile cruiser, for instance, could already be an interesting unit as much as the carrier on large to huge maps with lots of water between landmasses, but the need to micromanage the guided missiles loadout kinda makes you skip it unless you have a titanic patience (I don't XD). One could remove its normal bombard attack (so it needs a proper escort) and just give it a long range missile attack (maybe stealing the industrial+ animation city defenses have?), balancing it with the need of a full turn spent on set up (to aim those patriots at the inland target I guess). However most of such things, I guess, are just wet dreams until the modders have access to the dll.

Spoiler :
-Specialists and Industrialization-
I think we agree here. I understand you dont want to change the fundamentals of the game, i respect that. But I do feel it's a bit odd that the industrial to modern era's have more of a feel of fealty and feudalism than they do ubran industrialization. I think that a drastic "shift" in the feel of the game during the industrial revolution would be a value-add to this game, not an over complication that would reduce fun.
In fact, making the game have a quasi-time table in which the power sphere shifts from "big empires" to "small" would create an interesting strategic dynamic. Do you go early for geographical dominance? Or wait and become an industrial powerhouse later?

The major issue with this is that people might just "sell off cities" and this cheesy tactic should be shunned. (Diplomacy needs an overhaul too.) But ignoring that single tactic which might have another solution. The switch to industrialized specialized nations strikes me as a crucial dynamic that we can implement if we decide to.

Even big empires can industrialize, it's just harder and takes longer. (Russia, China). I think that the current 'costs' of factories are fine, for example, so long as their output is significant. Because then a huge empire trying to build factories will take significantly longer than it would for a smaller nation to fully industrialize. It's merely an issue of speed, I feel.

The benefit of specialists (either advanced specialists which have increased resource output), or more specialists with larger populations, would mean that smaller (taller) empires would be able to compete with the geographical monstrosities.

This is a concept I like, but I can't really imagine a good way to represent it right now, not with a really perceptible impact. Buffing some specialists up and makin 'em more common is quite a nice idea: after all it just makes sense that in modern times, a city with several infrastructures (buildings) isn't as dependant from the countryside as before. If you go over just a bit of buffing, though, to a point where gameplay could really feel different, I suppose the AI which manages the citizens would just go crazy forcing you to micromanage 'em. Which would be a major PITA.

However, a thing I like is how under several instances this CIV seems to favor smaller empires. I mean, apart from culture, even the most expansive kind of victory condition, domination, just asks you to conquer the capitals, not to control a certain % of the world. However, that's easy to achieve with small empires now mostly thanks to the awful combat AI.
While it wouldn't be good for a "balance" mod (a kind of mod that should keep itself under the general rules of vanilla), I was thinking of something that would seriously cripple large empires, especially once the industrial era kicks in: but not about industrial production, but rather about social policies and happiness: right now the only limit to expansion is happiness, but between the new resources you grab expanding and by constructing the needed buildings, you can quickly counter that, indefinitely. No more corruption from distance from the capital and similar mechanics that (with their quirks aswell) were more realistic.

The point is, when an empire expands and swallows other cultures, sooner or later it will crumble because some of those cultures will never be completely assimilated. If in the case of ancient empires (like Rome) the fall came mostly from internal corruption and logistic issues related to the widespread frontlines , in modern times this often tends to happen because of economics and social politics: in the USSR dissolution how western, capitalist and democratic social policies were attractive for the eastern europe "block" played a rather significant role.
As such, I would consider heavily rewriting the more modern social policies so that they interfer with one another: freedom, for instance, would give an heavy happiness malus to any rival empire who doesn't have it, while being exclusive - so you can't take both that and a policy like order that favors big empires. To work nicely, however, this should be supported by things we can't have for now: city flipping, revolutions spawning new civilizations in game and so on. Maybe (just maybe) the most we could do now is to make it so when you go into unhappiness status, or while you are at war, there's a growing chance for each of your annexed (or puppet) cities to switch back to their previous owner (aka triggering the "liberation" routine) without the need of an external military or diplomatic intervention, so that while you are holding your frontlines, you'll find yourself attacked from behind by partisans. The more you grow, the bigger your frontline is, and the more potentially rebellious cities you'll have to keep watch on. When you have 20 annexed cities, even if the chance of rebellion is 1% per turn per city, unrest will become a serious obstacle (unless you raze and resettle, as most people already do, but that's cheap, it's a game shortcoming that needs to be addressed).


Spoiler :
-Gamespeeds-
I actually did some tweaking with unit-costs on my own and discovered that lowering unit costs actually had a very negative impact. The biggest consequences were that everyone was able to produce units very quickly, which meant that the utility and value of individual units dropped dramatically. As unit production was increased significantly - the ability to replace lost units became second nature. It then became far more important to replace quickly than use wisely. The other consequence of this was that cities became "tie-breakers" and defense became very very easy. When everyone is able to produce many units, and those units may only take up 1 tile each - the city became the additional power in the local area. Which means that defense and not offense became the main advantage. It was terribly interesting.
And I have to say, I'm no longer a fan of reducing unit build times like I thought i would be. It simply created opposite (and much worse) problems.

I experienced the same. On one side, I was happy finally seeing Rome field an army worth of this name against me, but... it was counterproductive in the long run.


Spoiler :
-Unit adjustment-
I wonder, and this might be a pipedream, if Units might be able to be given MORE HP. The Barracks line of buildings, what if instead of providing upgrades and XP, instead provided additional HP? Just raw Hitpoints. So that a unit produced from a barracks and armory city would simply be "larger" than a unit produced raw from another city? Combat alone could produce experience (which makes some amount of sense anyway) while barracks represent the larger force made?

I think it would behoove us to have tougher units produced from military cities. And it would have the additional benefit of representing "more units" without actually having "more units" out on the map. A 20HP unit would be the equivalent of 2 10HP units, AND be in one tile, AND do combat simultaneously. This would make barracks buildings VERY important. (I'd think 5 HP per building would be a roughly acceptable number)

Edit/Add: Actually, if it's possible at all, i think i'd change the Barracks line to do that myself - if i knew it was A) possible, and B) something i could manage. Sadly, I dont understand how to make mods and tend to alter original files (with backups copies of the original).

Makes more sense that what they do now, that's for sure: with the crappy AI we are stuck with, 45 XPs at unit creation is nothing, you can make those in few turns just letting an enemy unit or city pound your fortified unit indefinitely; not that they matter much, anyway, with just a few promotions feeling really interesting. However, for the very same reason, I fear more HP would further emphasize how the AI is crappy, eager to be meat for your XPs and not much more than that. If this were to come with a wider rebalance of combat damage, though (city defenses doing MUCH higher DMG, unit bombard and melee aswell, or you would end up needing 10 turns to finally beat that riflemen unit), maybe it could work. With just another dilemma: does the AI prioritize training in cities which have a barracks? If it doesn't (as I'm very likely to believe), then making the barracks useful in any real way would be another huge advantage to the player against an already too disappointing opponent.


Spoiler :
Edit/Add:
-Strategic Resrouces-

I think Iron should matter through every era of the game. Horses, perhaps not - but then perhaps cavalry should be far more potent than it is, make it a kind of "blitz" resource early game, and perhaps higher grades of cavalry require MORE horses. (Lancers perhaps need 2-3 horses to represent the overall larger size of their cavalry forces)

The easiest way would be to have some units require more iron (modern age?) This makes sense especially with the Barracks HP boost. As this would represent larger armed forces anyway. Also, Ironclad and later ships should require LOTS of iron, ridiculous amounts, frankly.

I agree. I would use iron for ships (or shipbuilding related structures), while horses could be used for happiness/culture special buildings once they aren't useful anymore for warfare (well, they are still in the game 'till the end, but that doesn't really make lots of sense imho). Like the Circus, but actually consuming 1 unit of horses.


Spoiler :
-Speaking of ships-
Ships should have melee attacks. Triremes all the way to frigates tended to board one another. "Shoot-only" didnt really happen until ironclads and later, and at that point they usually shot at each other simultaneously (simultanious damage).. As "ranged" represents sneak attacks or unanswerable damage. Why not give submarines exclusive rights to "ranged" attacks. If the issue is with bombarding shore lines - i'm not sure what can be done.

I would change ancient ships to melee, yes, a trireme "bombarding" a shoreline feels just wrong. Ship vs ship, however, if the AI were working as it should there would be "simultaneous damage" already: you need several volleys - turns - before sinking an enemy ship unless you gangbang it with a whole small fleet, so on its turn it has the chance to fire back. Only issue is, most of the time, the AI won't fire back at you no matter what :crazyeye:
 
@Thal

There's a little problem with the unofficial patch version. In this thread it's v8, in its thread it's v7 and in the .zip it's v9 (with a bugged readme).
 
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