The Immortal Challenge Lineup - Game #14 France

For example why doesn't someone try going liberty and then selling cities to AI? Going domination without worrying about happiness and using heathen conversion? I'm sure if we open our minds we can think of outrageous strategies that can work with some tweaking...

I have been using the selling cities thing the past few games. It works nice going for Domination and taking extra cities before the capital. Capture extra cities...capture capital sell/give back the other cities. If I only need one/two cities I'll look at start razing/selling buildings then giving back when it's down to 1 population. They lose all their buildings so I'm not as concerned about them getting too powerful. I did learn this isn't great early game as the AI has enough time to at least feel they are strong enough to attack
 
I have been using the selling cities thing the past few games. It works nice going for Domination and taking extra cities before the capital. Capture extra cities...capture capital sell/give back the other cities. If I only need one/two cities I'll look at start razing/selling buildings then giving back when it's down to 1 population. They lose all their buildings so I'm not as concerned about them getting too powerful. I did learn this isn't great early game as the AI has enough time to at least feel they are strong enough to attack

Well I'm actually talking about self-founding crappy cities (after your aqueducts are up in your first four if you go tradition, but liberty has it much easier) near the AI with maybe one lux tile and then selling them for a boatload of gold (and if lucky, slowing down AI tech/happiness in the meantime)... with liberty, I think fast settlers can earn you a lot of gold that way... gold that can be used for other more useful things...
 
But perhaps we feel it's too restrictive because we ourselves are lacking in skill; I.E not being creative enough/not having the skills to pull off less conventional strats... or rather... not knowing/being able to discern when the landscape allows for conventional strats and when it doesn't.

I agree. I think even this forum forces a certain conformity on the reader which discourages a freer style of thinking. It is informative, yet restrictive at the same time.
 
On topic:
Spoiler :

Turn 125:
Went liberty. Settled on south hills like many people. Capital can be a very good production: multiple quarries + multiple pastures. Made 4 quick cities and got NC at turn 78 (only 8 turns to build on 4 cities is impressive). Then Pacal was an ass and planted a city in the middle of my territory so I razed that, planted one of mine, and captured Attila's Court while I'm at it. I then added a 7th city on the coast.

And I got Notre Dame because it's thematic. It created a late education due to the detour (Edu T121).

Considering capturing Morocco cap because Petra and other stuff.

Then I'll just transition into a culture game. The funny thing though is that nobody made the Oracle yet, I have it on 1 turn left checking if people make it but people are too busy fighting wars or being crippled by me. I expect a quick secularism in the next turns :)

Spoiler :


 
That was a fun game, really enjoyed the map.

Spoiler :
Won a culture victory on T309 would have been 25-30 turns sooner but I stupidly lost my world congress proposal rights so international games didn't get proposed til the following session. Got 2 out of 3 French wonders, missed out on Notre Dame by a couple turns also got Statue of Liberty if that counts(built in France).

Dido finished with I believe 4 capitals(Attila, Portugal, Shoshone, her's) and was on her way to taking Russia's(would have intervened as Russia was my Freedom buddy). I almost had Attila's court but my longswordsman died attacking the city even though it was almost at 0HP so Dido stole it from me the following turn. Didn't keep track of turn times for each wonder as there were a lot. Bought 2 GM with faith to bomb Morocco for the win

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Big Ben in Lyon, Leaning Tower of Pisa and Hanging Gardens in Orlean, Oracle and Statue of Liberty in Paris(couldn't fit in screenshot).

 
Spoiler :
Started a non pretentious game with nothing in mind except getting the three Paris-world wonders and maybe try some new things.

BO: Scout/worker/settler/settler/settler/library/scout/scout

Bought a early warrior, a library in my fourth expo and a later an extra composite bow while building NC for my first gold.

Tech: Mining/masonry/pottery/writing/calendar/philosophy then beline to Note Dame, after Notre dame i went for X-bows before education.

SP: Full tradition - then my unorthodox tech patch messed up the SP a bit so I opened bot exploration and aesthetics before rationalism.

Early "360-scouting" with the starting warrior revealed some nice expo possibilities so I decided to go for a 4 city tradition. I went for a worker instead of monument because I really wanted to work the copper and stones for my settler production.

Unfortunately I lost my scout with delayed further map knowledge a while, I really wanted the spots, especially Uluru for a religion. I got them all and managed to squeeze in two scouts before NC wich was finished somewere in the 80ish.

I founded the first religion. Chose cathedrals because france since we are in a role playing mood. Later I also got pagodas and religious texts.

After libraries I built units and granaries in my expos. Both Attila and Ahmad were obviously up to no good.

TADAM - on turn 121 i finished Notre dame - 2 more to go!



Now I had quite a lot of units and it would be a shame not to use them. Attila had made a complete kill on Pocatello so I denounced him along with the rest of the world and attacked him along side Portugal. I also paid Morocco to join in.



Now I'm at turn 180 and heading for public schools. Since Portugal is in the game I probably head for Louvre before Eiffel tower. Since I built early workshop I spawned a GE in one of my expos. I used this for Leaning tower of Pisa that got me another GE ready for the Louvre.

Im thinking of going for domination or maybe culture. We'll see... I have no hurry and expect a long game.
 
Turn 247 update:

Spoiler :
4 turns until Artillery. As is noted above, detouring to ensure ND and Louvre takes longer. Its just me & Cathy now, I secured all the other caps. Will finish it tomorrow.


And the last cap falls:

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Similar to the Egypt game, 4-digit culture and tourism... (although admittedly, this time with IG... so without IG I think my tpt will cut at around 1000k flat since broadcast towers are additive and not multiplicative with IG); well mainly I tried IG since I wanted the free SP to complete Exploration to get hidden sites...
Didn't get religion this game (didn't bother with Uluru's location as it looked food-poor.
Full trad, aesthetics, rat, exploration, pietyx1, freedomx6

No bulbs, no GM bombs, stole one worker (admittedly) from CS just because it was too tempting. Three wars actually (defensive ones however... other people decide to DoW me...)


Settled here. For early wonders, granary goods and mining hills are essential.


I seriously should've taken this worker... but didn't... in the end I needed one so whisked one away from Samarkand and made peace immediately.


First wonder, ToA t53


Got forward-settled. Still I am allied with Hanoi so I'm not TOO worried about getting blitzed. This is not deity after all...


Decided against bribing lest Atilla get more cities and thus more hammers (Shoshone already taken out) because I had faith in my CBs... maybe thin out his army a little. Eventually white peace.


Made some cities to sell them to Morocco... (same as the Germany DCL); my tech path at first aimed to get to Engineering then get Great Wall, but Morocco took it before I even got the tech... so might as well get him involved with Atilla a little bit (hey, put your wonder to use!)
Operation Moroccan wall complete! Atilla clearly wanted to DoW Ahmad but my troops blocked his forces.


I saw that Atilla and a few other people already had trebs... since I wanted Notre Dame in Paris, I decided to let my first GP be an engineer. (ToA's GE point really useful here); I eventually hammered down Notre Dame.


Seriously, this is such a beautiful spot... flood plains wheat, trufflesx2, silver, horses, cotton... AND defensible too... People should seriously expand here rather than towards Atilla if this game were on deity.


Here Atilla had the gall to ask me what my troops were doing. "Oh we mean no harm we are merely passing by"... It's so unfair I can't ask him the same question when he brings his troops over.


Dow'd out of the blue by Russia... (despite Cathy not having a clear route to my city behind the mountains... several turns later my friend Portugal backstabs me too... I had XBs however so was never really hurt. I did plunder 3 caravans from her and captured maybe two prophets (shame none of them still had all their charges so no holy sites), and a dozen missionaries)... Atilla later DoW'd Portugal however... (she long had that coming... given their borders)


As you can tell from my rather erratic tech path, my tech was much slower than on deity (since I wanted the wonders of course!)... the scariest part was the wall that I had so carefully built collapse because Portugal was the ally of Tyre... (and because she was at war with me I could not block the CS from being taken... damn her...) Eventually made peace but that damage was done... my wall is gone...


Quest complete! Notre Dame, Eiffel, and Louvre all built in Paris!


I was by far the culture and tourism leader. I forced the commie Russians to embrace Democracy! Atilla the Fascist was more stubborn however, despite having nonexistent culture...


I got world ideology: Freedom passed and his empire imploded... Flipped a city which has zero useful stuff (no wonders, no great works, nothing...)


Too bad he was broke... so I sold it back to him for quite cheap... but something tells me the city will soon return to me... (hint: might be all the single-copy luxes he's putting on the table...)


And I was right...


Sold it to Morocco, who "graciously accepted" for quite a price and his gold and gpt and luxes... (and even after this I got a bright green "we've traded recently" buff) I shudder to think what cities could sell for on deity... Nonetheless with the money I bought myself all the faith and culture CSs.


3 big river cities with hydroplants can put out 2000+ hammers in 5 turns... soundly defeating Atilla's sprawling empire hammer-wise. It's all about quality not quantity.


Oops I won... kinda wished it didn't end... no concerts at all... I didn't even bother checking for trade routes or OBs...


Finally had enough around t320-ish... dug up and made landmarks of all the hidden sites in my borders, resulting in around 1800+ tpt with IG. Complete set of theming wonders except for GL and SOH.


My city can build Apollo in 4 turns on standard... is that bad? :lol:


For an immortal AI, wondermonger Maria did quite well... surpassing most deity AIs even at 44k total culture.


Which of course pales in comparison to my 65k... (no I did not win world fair, just a mere golden age boosted my cpt to 1200+)

Didn't really bother with religion this game but bought some mosques; Maria's religion had desert folklore (really useful for my north city) and mosques and +2 happy from temples... really nice.

Wonders in order of build time:
ToA
Oracle
HG
Notre Dame
Pisa (GE)
Sistine
Globe
Uffizi
PT (in satellite)
Eiffel
SoL
Louvre
Cristo
Broadway
CN tower
Neuchweinstein however you spell it (in satellite)

16 total (if I had continued to play I would get Hubble, Pentagon, and Great Firewall for 3 more)
 
kb27787

Spoiler :

What is the strategy in having just 1 city by T80? I saw you had the same in DCL Germany. Or you just did not bother and wanted to build wonders and other crap? :lol:
 
kb27787

Spoiler :

What is the strategy in having just 1 city by T80? I saw you had the same in DCL Germany. Or you just did not bother and wanted to build wonders and other crap? :lol:

Spoiler :
If the land is wide open with multiple spaces to expand, one city NC is by far the safest and easiest to do.
As you guessed, it allows for wonderwhoring while still having an army.
Founding a satellite later as long as you have a spare caravan to send is as good as expanding early, esp. after civil service; you just need to have several workers around to support the rapidly growing city with more river farms.
 
Turn 362 Slowest Ever and Most Violent CV

Spoiler :
A really leisurely game made a tad too long by Dido getting 55000 culture...

I started out unsure of what VC I would pursue. The moment I saw Attila I knew I would not be peaceful. To confirm this, I stole one of his workers, and three from Tyre. Within 50 turns Tyre would be my best buddy. The CS mechanics are pretty broken...

I quickly settled 3 expos and had NC T80ish, using Oracle free policy to finish Liberty and use the GE for NC. Can't remember if Pyramids were before or after, but I had a ton of workers. Half stayed to build mines and farms, the others ventured off to make roads to Attila's Court.

I took AC with CBs, then Palenque and Marrakesh with XBs. While I was at war with Shoshone, Carthage and Russia were bribed to join in, but their hearts were not in it. Secretly they wanted to go at each other (pardon my double entendre ;) )

I killed 20-25 units of each and received generous peace offerings which persuaded me that I had enough gold to do what I wanted. After so much war, I was a little tired of it (especially after the DCL #17) and so I wondered if I could get a CV. I knew that I would be able to get a DiploV anyway. Cathy was going for science and since I had a huge tech lead, I could just nuke her into oblivion if I wanted. If Dido ever DoW'd me a second time, I would just hold my line and annihilate another 25 of her units. Or 250 if it came to it.

Before the change of heart I had gone full Liberty, full Honour, so any war would have just fed my already rich coffers. But I had a large CPT and the empire was a decent wide empire for museums and hotels.

Trouble was that Dido ended up taking all the Shoshone and Portugal lands so had a pretty decent wide empire of her own, plus all the early game wonders that I ignored.

I lost the International Games by less than 100 hammers, which added nearly 100 turns to the win time. In the end I faith-bought 3 musicians, built NVC and CN Tower, and just waited for 25 turns until I persuaded Dido to disrobe and put my jeans on.

I enjoyed this game immensely, and haven't had such a nice wide empire in a while (they are so rare on Deity).

P.S> As for the Wonder challenge, by the time I changed tack it was too later for ND, but I got Eiffel and Louvre.
 
I might try this one, just to see if Immortal really is that much easier for me, or maybe that was situational
 
Wonders Complete on Turn 235 but Screenshot is 236. Time for a break.

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I read everyones write up just now and my game was very different. I had no problems... Dido and Morocco are taking over the world. It is down to us and Russia! I would of crushed some cities by now but since I went for the Wonder Challenge it is taking some time but Artillery is just about up and I might wait for Rocket Artillery. I dunno I am a little bored but my game is a slow build up and should get exciting soon!

I didn't like the start so I moved a couple of hexes to the left and found a decent spot I suppose. It worked out for me and I went Liberty to use the GE to insure Notre Dame on turn 113. Here are some pictures... I did get Taj Mahal in my expo as well. I know SC is in the Vatican but I put it in Paris today.

I went Order as well and chose Hero, +2 Happy for Monuments and I decided to go with 5yr plan first to hard build the Eiffel Tower faster. My other Policies are in the picture. I won WF by over 700 hammers.

I also got up the 3rd Religion but all happy buildings were gone so I took monasteries with Rel Texts as my enhancers. My founding panth was God King with Tithe and +2 Faith per wonder.

Most of the Religions are dead so it will not be hard to convert cities. Dido has no Church of her own so that is nice!






 
@Fluphen

Spoiler :
Any reason not completing Aesthetics as France (you've got Louvre you might as well)? Double of Double is Quadruple theming bonuses! Easily the best tenet Order has for CV is iron curtain though... with that many cities and food routes you can grow a monster cap...
I am assuming you are going CV... right? With that many chateaux... or are you going domination again...
(but given that you dominate successfully on deity wouldn't this be like clubbing a baby seal to you? :lol: )
btw I'll post your t81 game soon... as soon as I wrap it up
 
@Fluphen

Spoiler :
Any reason not completing Aesthetics as France (you've got Louvre you might as well)? Double of Double is Quadruple theming bonuses! Easily the best tenet Order has for CV is iron curtain though... with that many cities and food routes you can grow a monster cap...
I am assuming you are going CV... right? With that many chateaux... or are you going domination again...
(but given that you dominate successfully on deity wouldn't this be like clubbing a baby seal to you? :lol: )
btw I'll post your t81 game soon... as soon as I wrap it up

Spoiler :
I dunno kb27787... I'm so just doing whatever I want this game as I always seem to do on Immortal. I really have just got lost in builder mode and stunted all growth. I've been building units and I just liberated Atilla! I am kinda using some of your suggestions with building fake cities and selling them. It works pretty good actually.

I'm so late in this game. I think Im going for Diplomatic. I never go CV, that is one Victory I hardly try for anymore. I guess since the AIs killed everyone and it is just us three the tech is slower. I am on turn 311 or something and could see this game going 400 or more if I wanted. It feels like a sandbox game that will never end.

Of course at this point I am pretty sure I could win any VC with the use of Warmongering since I have Rocket Artillery and Nukes and these two are far behind. My plan right now is to take a bunch of cities from Dido and sell them to my DOF Morocco and buy up all the CS's for diplo.

 
consentient
Spoiler :
I think you missed ND because you went with such a wide Liberty opening and then burned GE for NC. But have you ever tried to prioritize Physics?

I tried to illustrate how easy it was to knock out cities once i got my 4 Trebs out with a few support units. The city defenses in that time frame stand no chance. Compare their combat strengths against the cities you see on my t147 screen shot. They also are promoted and have the HE buff, +15% strength.
 
@Budweiser

Nope, never gone straight for Trebs. If there was a decent UU replacement, I might. I guess I could try Korea domination :D
 
Diplomatic Victory Turn 349

@ budweiser

Spoiler :
Nice Job getting all the wonders that you asked for in the challenge and going domination winning on turn 268!! (Did you get the Louvre Museum in Paris? Since it was Immortal I popped a GE as my second GP after I used Liberty Finisher for GE, using them both to build ND and Louvre instantly. After I Beelined Physics... I beelined Archeology which I never ever do! I usually end up stealing that tech or it is one of my last techs in the game. I could of got another GE for Eiffel but I figured since I was first to Radio I could just hard build it and pop a GS instead.) I guess I could of got on with my war much earlier and attempted Domination but I was pretty high while playing and I kinda just waited for Nukes and Rocket Artillery before I started to press in.



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Not much to really say. I played the way I wanted which took longer but gave me some fun in the end game. Of course we all could win this map with faster turn times but with the Wonder Challenge and since I stopped focusing on growth it took longer. I guess not having many trading partners hurt for RAs as well. About going for CV... I guess I could do this but usually for me that means I can't get into late game wars which I enjoy more than trying to get my Tourism to skyrocket. Perhaps one of these days but I do not see a CV in my near future. I would say that kb27787 has a good point that if I would of got into aesthetics and finished out the tree instead of Tradition as my 2nd/3rd policy it would of been interesting being able to faith buy Great People to create great works but since I almost always bulb all of my GAs and GWs it would be out of my range. I hardly ever build many GMs and a lot of times when I do I end up deleting them or using them for bait!

My game was a very slow build up yet fun. It was a nice easy slow paced game to relax to for a change. I was pretty messed up playing most of it and posting a response last night to kb27787's comment as well so that might of been a reason I was kinda just sitting back doing nothing really. (For about 3 minutes I was inside of Lyon trying to do something and I was saying this is not Paris... what is going on lol!! Ahhhh medicine is good!) I found it very easy to manipulate the AI into leaving me alone for the whole game. Even after I stole a worker from Atilla in the first few turns he never tried to go to war with me. It was interesting cause he crushed Shoshone and Dido crushed him. He never had time to try to come after me.

Perhaps kb27787 is right and we should play the game with no bribes and to take it one step further no trade whatsoever but I find it funny to manipulate the AI so I could not see myself playing like that. However as Gren has showed it does make the game more difficult but in the end it is still easy to win just not as easy.

I am starting to find it fun to liberate Civs and have them vote 4 votes for you as WL. I also am having a blast building fake cities and selling them for a ton of gold which is something new for me. I never thought of it but it is pretty funny when you are at war with one civ and you put that civ to war with your buddy. Next you plant two cities and sell them to your buddy and watch the enemy capture them and you re-capture them and sell them for another ton of gold lol! Exploit...ahhh yes but its too funny not to do it. The only problem is if you do it too many times and don't watch out sometimes your buddy declares peace with the enemy and those cities are sort of in the way now.

All and all a nice fun and relaxing map for me.


 
FA
Spoiler :
Yes, The Louvre was in Paris!
My game ended before Radio was invented, but as you can see I was 4 turns away from Electricity and Radio would have been next. I am pleased how it turned out, right in line with Napoleonic conquest.

I have already dreamed up the next 'challenge' and it will be in a similar vein as how I played my game, but harder I think. Coming as soon as I work out proof of concept. Too bad I have a real job.


consentient - The only problem is a Korean H'wacha does not get a city attack bonus. However, it does work good for wiping the field.
 
Well if you use them to clear a path to [what will be the last city you capture prior to finishing Cannon tech] then upgrade them in the city as it razes, then they at least keep the promotions. Then you can give them other stuff, maybe even Volley, before they become Artillery.

I guess I should play around more with Catapults and Trebuchets in Honor games. I tend to be too focused around XBs and Knights. I tend to steer clear of Pikes cuz their upgrade path sucks.

Sorry, I'm taking us too far OT.

Fantastic map! I hope the next one is as much fun :)
 
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