DRM Tolerance

Desertsnow said:

For me (and for most people, I think), it would be closer to the truth to call it the least malign.

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Pretty much this. Plus, Impulse at least, comes with the nice extra perk: You can re-download your game as often as you want to and can play without the disc. That offsets the inherent annoyance I have with a one-time "phone home"-call. Additionally, for Sins of a Solar Empire at least, you could even play without the one-time activation... you just couldn't install patches in that case (and hence missed out on multiplayer and mods).

That's something I'm pretty okay with, because these are the things you need internet for anyway, so you can still play the game out of the box, which is nice and the real sticking point for me (i.e. I can keep playing when I end up without internet access and have to re-install stuff).

Cheers, LT.

But how will you install the game ten years from now? I doubt the activation servers will still be online.

It's one activation server that has all games on it. SO they keep the old stuff on there, as long as Stardock is around, that will be around- and it's not just games on Impulse, but some application stuff (which is the majority of SD's business)

Stardock, like valve has said if they go under, they'll put everything out as standalones. It would be easier for Stardock to do it then Valve, as it would just be dumping files out for public dissemenation.

arstal said:

It's one activation server that has all games on it. SO they keep the old stuff on there, as long as Stardock is around, that will be around- and it's not just games on Impulse, but some application stuff (which is the majority of SD's business)

Stardock, like valve has said if they go under, they'll put everything out as standalones. It would be easier for Stardock to do it then Valve, as it would just be dumping files out for public dissemenation.

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It sounds too good to be true. If SD goes down, everything will be made standalone? Please. Suppose that they can see a bankruptcy coming right now. There is a chance that the CEO will be held responible for the debt the company is in - or at least the people who SD owes money to will try to old the CEO responsible. In order to reduce the amount of damages that the CEO will be responsible for, he is most likely to do everything in his power to minimize the losses. Now if they spend the final days of SD making the titles standalones, do you think that will sit well with the people who still have claims for money? - unsure how to call that in english.

If SD goes down, there is no way they will be busy making the titles standalones. They will be busy saving their own hides. You cannot blame them for that, because I would also think of my family first rather than of my customers. Therefore this guarantee that SD gives sounds very courtial, but it is a hollow claim. Should the company goes bankrupt, then there is no way any curator will ever allow the employees to work on aking the titles standalone. It costs a lot of money to do and the debet of the company will dip even deeper into the red while the creditors see not a single penny of that investment back. Who should pay for that then? The curator is not bound by any promise SD made, wo it won't happen.

Please do not be too optimistic about what will happen if a company goes bankrupt. By then promiss mean nothing. Nothing at all.

I think Steam is a good solution.

I have it always on so I vote for always on connection check and not the rest.

Shurdus said:

It sounds too good to be true. If SD goes down, everything will be made standalone? Please.

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I completely agree. That is why I don't hold them in enormous high regards either. They do similar to what Valve does, in that they are not required to release anything at all, according to the law.

If they go under, all those games may not be able to be accessed, unless they have time to let you before crumbling.

tom2050 said:

I completely agree. That is why I don't hold them in enormous high regards either. They do similar to what Valve does, in that they are not required to release anything at all, according to the law.

If they go under, all those games may not be able to be accessed, unless they have time to let you before crumbling.

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And they most certainly will not have that time. They have a lot more commitment to their own wallets than they have with your gaming experience. Trust me, those promises mean nothing because when the crap hits the van, they simply will not have the time to live up to their own promise.

Shurdus said:

It sounds too good to be true. If SD goes down, everything will be made standalone? Please. Suppose that they can see a bankruptcy coming right now. There is a chance that the CEO will be held responible for the debt the company is in - or at least the people who SD owes money to will try to old the CEO responsible. In order to reduce the amount of damages that the CEO will be responsible for, he is most likely to do everything in his power to minimize the losses. Now if they spend the final days of SD making the titles standalones, do you think that will sit well with the people who still have claims for money? - unsure how to call that in english.

Please do not be too optimistic about what will happen if a company goes bankrupt. By then promiss mean nothing. Nothing at all.

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Everything already IS standalone. Unlike steam, there is no DRM attached to the games themselves. At the very worst, a simple retail crack would suffice.

Impulse is better then Steam in the sense that you can run your games without having the Impulse client run AT ALL. In Valve's case, they would have to undo their custom DRM. (which wouldn't be too hard)

With Impulse, there's also a way to archive games you have installed, and burn that to DVD. So, unlike Steam , there are better options and failsafes, though some of them might require being proactive. Odds are if Stardock or valve go under, they will be warning signs.

http://forums.stardock.com/336339

If Steam or Impulse go down for the count you wouldn't be able to re-dl your games anyways- so that point is moot.

Also, both Steam/Impulse are well-funded, they're not going to go down without warning signs. I'd worry about D2D though.

I don't know, if SD was in trouble I suspect Brad Wardell would force through the standalone stuff because he would hate to miss an opportunity to be better than Steam.

there's alot of anti-steam nonsense being talked on this thread , i assume by people who have never used it . Using steam and impulse grants the exact same experience to the end user , you register and then you play but with steam it runs in the background taking up virtually no resources . I think some people are just determined to dislike steam regardless of the facts , they prefer to make up there own little stories to justify not using it . Nevermind the benefits with using steam , of course they are never mentioned as they have already made there mind up.

For those of us who don't care about multiplayer, don't mind downloading patches ourselves (the horror!), and don't lose discs, there aren't any functional benefits to steam.

gingerbill said:

there's alot of anti-steam nonsense being talked on this thread , i assume by people who have never used it . Using steam and impulse grants the exact same experience to the end user , you register and then you play but with steam it runs in the background taking up virtually no resources . I think some people are just determined to dislike steam regardless of the facts , they prefer to make up there own little stories to justify not using it . Nevermind the benefits with using steam , of course they are never mentioned as they have already made there mind up.

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Wrong. Having to set up offline mode is a difference to begin with. See posts of people who have had problem with that.

gingerbill said:

there's alot of anti-steam nonsense being talked on this thread , i assume by people who have never used it . Using steam and impulse grants the exact same experience to the end user , you register and then you play but with steam it runs in the background taking up virtually no resources . I think some people are just determined to dislike steam regardless of the facts , they prefer to make up there own little stories to justify not using it . Nevermind the benefits with using steam , of course they are never mentioned as they have already made there mind up.

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As someone who HAS actually used both, that's a load of BS.

I hate CD checks, as most of my games are now either digital or don't need the CD. I feel bothered when I have to dig out a CD and hence play those games less.

Would definitely not buy if it has a draconian DRM scheme.

arstal said:

Everything already IS standalone. Unlike steam, there is no DRM attached to the games themselves. At the very worst, a simple retail crack would suffice.

Impulse is better then Steam in the sense that you can run your games without having the Impulse client run AT ALL. In Valve's case, they would have to undo their custom DRM. (which wouldn't be too hard)

With Impulse, there's also a way to archive games you have installed, and burn that to DVD. So, unlike Steam , there are better options and failsafes, though some of them might require being proactive. Odds are if Stardock or valve go under, they will be warning signs.

http://forums.stardock.com/336339

If Steam or Impulse go down for the count you wouldn't be able to re-dl your games anyways- so that point is moot.

Also, both Steam/Impulse are well-funded, they're not going to go down without warning signs. I'd worry about D2D though.

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There may be warning signs to the people looking into the books, but definitely not for the end users. Companies are not too happy to share with the world the fact that the company is in serious trouble, because that may cause even further trouble. Would you do buisness with a company that might not be able to hold up their end of the deal?

You seem overly positive about how easy it would be to 'crack' the games for steam. If a company is in trouble, the good leader would pull all resources away from projects like the ones you describe and turn attention towards those projects that actually make money. It matters little how hard or easy it is to crack this and that, the people from both SD and Valve will simply not do it because their attention is turned elsewhere. Should these companies use their dying breath for making cracks and such, then you bet the CEO and boardmembers will be held responsible for the missed income that could also have been generated with their dying breath.

No matter how cool the people from either company may be, expecting them to put your interests over their own interests - especially when their interests are in their wallets - you can bet them to choose to safe themselves. Saying anything else is naive and shows little awareness of real life buisness. Companies tend to not keep their promises when faced with hard choices, simply becuase they cannot keep all promises all the time. If a company is in that much trouble, the end user is in trouble. Saying that there will be warnings is naive, because it is not in the best interest of the companies to give out warnings. Saying that there will be some cracks and such 'because it is easy to do' is naive, because no matter how easy it is, it is not in the best interest to divert resources to that effort.

While I readely agree the consequences for impulse games are less severe as the consequences for steam games could be, saying that it will be ok and that there will be warning signes is complete nonense and naive, and that the companies will keep their promises is naive too.

Shurdus said:

It sounds too good to be true. If SD goes down, everything will be made standalone? Please. Suppose that they can see a bankruptcy coming right now. There is a chance that the CEO will be held responible for the debt the company is in - or at least the people who SD owes money to will try to old the CEO responsible. In order to reduce the amount of damages that the CEO will be responsible for, he is most likely to do everything in his power to minimize the losses. Now if they spend the final days of SD making the titles standalones, do you think that will sit well with the people who still have claims for money? - unsure how to call that in english.

If SD goes down, there is no way they will be busy making the titles standalones. They will be busy saving their own hides. You cannot blame them for that, because I would also think of my family first rather than of my customers. Therefore this guarantee that SD gives sounds very courtial, but it is a hollow claim. Should the company goes bankrupt, then there is no way any curator will ever allow the employees to work on aking the titles standalone. It costs a lot of money to do and the debet of the company will dip even deeper into the red while the creditors see not a single penny of that investment back. Who should pay for that then? The curator is not bound by any promise SD made, wo it won't happen.

Please do not be too optimistic about what will happen if a company goes bankrupt. By then promiss mean nothing. Nothing at all.

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As for cracking, it would be a warez group that does the crack, not Valve. Might be a Valve employee on their spare time though, you never know. In the case of Impulse, there is no work needed in their dying days- everything yo need is already there. Download (if you haven't) and archive (no internet required to archive)

Steam would take work, but from what I've read, the work has already been done, so it shouldn't be much work for them (but who knows)

As for warning signs, they're pretty easy to spot. If games flop, particularly mega-budget titles, or if the service is being abandoned (like D2D is), then there are warning signs. Stardock's probably in a better position then Valve- since Stardock is more diversified (games is only about 40% of their business), but both companies are in really good shape. Neither one publicizes their books, since they're privately owned- but Stardock does release a business report every year with their plans, which is a good read. Right now- if I was to make a guess- the big company most likely to go down in the next year or two is Sega, but I don't think they will. I just hope I get my Virtua Fighter 5 expansion first.

Also, I'm not saying Stardock does all this stuff because they care, or because they're cool people. Brad Wardell flat out will tell you to your face that the reason he does all this is not for you, but because it's proftiable- and treating your customers right makes them repeat customers. He's even said that if he was in Steam's shoes, he'd be doing the same thing as a greedy monopolist. He said it's wrong, and as a gamer he'd gripe like hell, but he'd do it.

Here's a good blog post on the issue. It's specifically about facebook, but the first half applies equally here as well.

http://steve.grc.com/2010/05/24/facebook-and-the-ford-pinto/

Steam games can be cracked.

Steam itself can be cracked.

There is no such thing as working DRM.

Anything that involves a CD check isn't good enough. Requiring a CD Key isn't good enough (as sharing a serial would defeat that on installation, and if you have to authenticate the CD key before playing the game at all, that can be bypassed with .exe modification and .dll replacement.)

Anything that changes the executable to go haywire if a bypass is detected is not only annoying, but ineffective. Executables like these have been, and will continue to be cracked.

The only effective "Copy protection" of any kind I've seen is with Galactic Civilizations. That is, you must have a CD key that is valid and not shared to log into your account to patch the game. GalCiv's patches add a TON of features with updates, so you would really be missing expansions, new races, units, etc, if you pirate the game and don't patch.

For pirates, GalCiv's method is frustrating. All other methods have been/will continue to be bypass/cracked/patched out.

Patches are as easily cracked as anything else, though.