Most overrated World Wonder?

Well, when you are going for CV and the AI has something like 70k tourism and builds the GF, its already a very bad thing So its definitely not overrated, it can cause a lot of trouble ....

Convict said:

I think I mentioned I was not clear about if people were singing its praises.

In the time I have played the Internet tourism bonus has never been much of a factor as a science victory happens before then.

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A beeline to internet costs a lot less techs (56 techs) than a sv (73 techs). It definitely happens before, way before a sv is even possible.

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Pyramid also helps with quick road connections because all workers can work on it

I think Stonehenge is overrated as Religion is not always either necessary or effective to pursue a Religion based strategy, except on Immortal+

One thought on Great Library. Yes its useless on Immortal and above and Emperor is risky. But if you're playing Rome & want to do a legion rush I would say that's an option.
Id also say its good for Maya (obviously) and Byzantines (to help with establishing early religion).

Sure its not going to work for Diety games but for King- Emperor level players it may be worth it for those 3 Civs.

DarkestOnion said:

I think Stonehenge is overrated as Religion is not always either necessary or effective to pursue a Religion based strategy, except on Immortal+

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Uh, what? I'd say religion is critical to a religion-based strategy. Stonehenge is also one of the only ways to establish a religion without a Faith pantheon. Finally, the Great Engineer point helps you pick up another wonder later - getting your first GE likely well before metal casting.

GoStu said:

Uh, what? I'd say religion is critical to a religion-based strategy. Stonehenge is also one of the only ways to establish a religion without a Faith pantheon. Finally, the Great Engineer point helps you pick up another wonder later - getting your first GE likely well before metal casting.

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If a Stonehenge can be replaced with taking a Faith based Pantheon (which you should always do if you are playing a game focused on Religion) and building Shrines, and Specialists can give you more efficient Great Engineer Points...then I argue that Stonehenge is overrated. It is cool if you disagree, as we all play in our own style. I for one, don't care much for Wonders anymore.

GoStu said:

Uh, what? I'd say religion is critical to a religion-based strategy. Stonehenge is also one of the only ways to establish a religion without a Faith pantheon. Finally, the Great Engineer point helps you pick up another wonder later - getting your first GE likely well before metal casting.

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It's worth it, faith-wise, in that it costs 185 hammers to build, compare to 40 hammers to build a shrine (+5 faith vs +1 faith) -- so it's actually a bargain, and you get the GE point worked in. Just takes a lot of hammers when you could be building settlers or granaries or libraries.

Also, while I think Stonehenge is fun to get, you're not getting your GE well before Metal Casting unless you are taking a slow and lazy route through the tech tree.

Angkor Wat - Pretty much useless.

Terracotta army - Comes in too early to be useful and if you have a bad economy early on, it will make it worse.

Borobudur - Meh.

Big Ben - By the industrial era... who cares? Production is usually maxed by then so why waste precious gold?

DarkestOnion said:

If a Stonehenge can be replaced with taking a Faith based Pantheon (which you should always do if you are playing a game focused on Religion) and building Shrines, and Specialists can give you more efficient Great Engineer Points...then I argue that Stonehenge is overrated. It is cool if you disagree, as we all play in our own style. I for one, don't care much for Wonders anymore.

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Some of the non-faith pantheons are really good, and you might want to hold into them even if you have no plans to spread your religion. Example, Fertility Rites for a extra-tall strategy. Anyway, as a below poster noted it does the job of five shrines with a slight production discount. It also costs no maintenance, and the GE point is free: you start gaining the points. Even when you're working the slot later it can give you a head start.

orasis said:

Angkor Wat - Pretty much useless.

Terracotta army - Comes in to early to be useful and if you have a bad economy early on, it will make it worse.

Borobudur - Meh.

Big Ben - By the industrial era... who cares? Production is usually maxed by then so why waste precious gold?

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The math has been done in this thread already for Big Ben. If all you do is capture Big Ben... Whatever, free discount. If you have Commerce and stack it Merchantilism, and better yet Autocracy or Order's discounts, it's incredibly powerful for a Wonder that's not hard to build due to lack of competition in Commerce.

Borobudur is strong for the time you get it. It often lands before your enhancing prophet; if not, then at least near that time. You can go hit six cities in the surrounding area while the competition at most can purchase a single missionary at a time to get two cities (if they're not still waiting on an enhancer).

Angkor Wat is widely recognized as useless; not really 'overrated', just bad.

Terracotta Army I agree with you on; some people have sung it's praises for a highly specific rush: a serious gamble. Maybe it pays off in multiplayer , but in reality it can sink you hard.

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

It's worth it, faith-wise, in that it costs 185 hammers to build, compare to 40 hammers to build a shrine (+5 faith vs +1 faith) -- so it's actually a bargain, and you get the GE point worked in. Just takes a lot of hammers when you could be building settlers or granaries or libraries.

Also, while I think Stonehenge is fun to get, you're not getting your GE well before Metal Casting unless you are taking a slow and lazy route through the tech tree.

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I admit that I often procrastinate metal casting because I play as the Aztecs often. The Jaguar obsoletes with that tech; I like to build a good handful just before they go obsolete. Still, maybe a person is bee lining through to education and or theology. Metal casting is a long way away.

I did the Order + Mercantilism + Big Ben thing, and I'm sticking with my story that BB is overrated. If you get the Order/Autocracy thing, stuff will be cheap to purchase...and if you don't build Big Ben, it will be slightly less cheap. That's why BB is so doggone overrated: because people are treating it as if you hadn't built BB then your entire strategy with Commerce has gone to waste. I'm sorry, but you didn't get cheap stuff because you built BB: you got it because you spent your entire game Medieval onward picking Social policies and optimizing your economy for gold output. People have made their case that it's easy to get and you have nothing better to do but get it, but that's not exactly the most glowing endorsement.

tetley said:

I did the Order + Mercantilism + Big Ben thing, and I'm sticking with my story that BB is overrated. If you get the Order/Autocracy thing, stuff will be cheap to purchase...and if you don't build Big Ben, it will be slightly less cheap. That's why BB is so doggone overrated: because people are treating it as if you hadn't built BB then your entire strategy with Commerce has gone to waste. I'm sorry, but you didn't get cheap stuff because you built BB: you got it because you spent your entire game Medieval onward picking Social policies and optimizing your economy for gold output. People have made their case that it's easy to get and you have nothing better to do but get it, but that's not exactly the most glowing endorsement.

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A valid point, there's absolutely more to the strategy than just "build Big Ben and wing it". You're right in that Big Ben might be getting too much credit for overall build coming together. Still, it makes the strategy a hell of a lot more powerful. This might be an odd case of something being both over- and under-rated by the community at the same time.

Can't forget the idea that maybe one could get sick of buying Units or Buildings too, in which case one of your 33% discounts will stop being applicable. At that point it's now 40% discount vs 25%. Debatable all around.

As I said before, a single wonder that nets me 150 gold per turn and is easy to get is hard to be overrated. Yes it's very specific in its application, but by the same reason Machu Pikachu is overrated and yet it hasn't been talked about nearly as much in this thread.

GoStu said:

Borobudur is strong for the time you get it. It often lands before your enhancing prophet; if not, then at least near that time. You can go hit six cities in the surrounding area while the competition at most can purchase a single missionary at a time to get two cities (if they're not still waiting on an enhancer).

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Anyone tried Borobudur and Initiation Rites? 600 gold instant gold I guess???

I think Borobodur is pretty useful, it allows my religion to quickly spread and establish pressure dominance. Extra faith is also helpful for buying GPs later. Building it after Djenne, is also pretty crazy.

My top 5 would be
1. Leaning Tower
2. Porcelain tower
3. Hubble
4. Sistine chapel
5. Oracle

These would be the ones I try to get every game, though I mainly aim for SV

Hanging gardens I used to rate highly, but with BNW, food caravans negate it, but it does sacrifice Xgpt for it, or the compound effect of having both.

Illianor123 said:

Hanging gardens I used to rate highly, but with BNW, food caravans negate it, but it does sacrifice Xgpt for it, or the compound effect of having both.

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If you have no fresh water access that Hanging Gardens is worth considering for a free Garden

Redaxe said:

Anyone tried Borobudur and Initiation Rites? 600 gold instant gold I guess???

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Yeah, I have done that on more than one occasion. I like Initiation Rites because it gives you a fast and very early cash boost, and Borobodur is certainly perfect to couple with this, not only for the direct effets of the missionaries, but also because the quite early religion push that they allow you to make will provide a very strong influence border in your region, passively converting many more cities if geography favors you.

I have occasionally timed it so that I have almost-build Borobudur (1 turn left) and then used my GE from Liberty to finish Great Mosque of Djenne and then finished Borobudur next turn, this basically gives you 50% extra value of Borobudur which is sweet.

kaspergm said:

Yeah, I have done that on more than one occasion. I like Initiation Rites because it gives you a fast and very early cash boost, and Borobodur is certainly perfect to couple with this, not only for the direct effets of the missionaries, but also because the quite early religion push that they allow you to make will provide a very strong influence border in your region, passively converting many more cities if geography favors you.

I have occasionally timed it so that I have almost-build Borobudur (1 turn left) and then used my GE from Liberty to finish Great Mosque of Djenne and then finished Borobudur next turn, this basically gives you 50% extra value of Borobudur which is sweet.

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Interesting. Personally I haven't really found a situation where Borobudur has really turned a game for me but I can see from the example you give that in the right scenario it sure has its uses.
And yes timing it with the Great Mosque Wonder is another interesting way to get a bit more value from it although I'm not really too fussed on either Wonder I suppose it would work really well with Interfaith Dialogue.


Back to Overrated Wonders I would have to say Chichen Itza

4 Happiness is not that noticeable and I really don't think +50% to golden ages is going to make or break a game. Golden Ages aren't as good as they used to be anyway now that gold has been removed from river tiles.
I always try to push population growth as hard as I can so I never have enough happiness to get that many GAs anyway. Plus the AIs go crazy after this one and there's little chance of getting it at higher difficulties.

Illianor123 said:

My top 5 would be
1. Leaning Tower
2. Porcelain tower
3. Hubble
4. Sistine chapel
5. Oracle

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All levels, with I want and sad if I lost them :
1. Oracle
2. Petra
3. Pyramids
4. Machu Picchu
5. Colossus

Low levels :
6. Great Library
7. Temple of Artemis
8. Hanging gardens
9. Borobudur
10. Pisa (hard to don't have it on low level).

Hubble. Irrelevant when you're winning, two GSes don't help enough if you're too far behind in the science race (since their output is linked to your science output, and if you're behind they're of limited use). And building a spaceship factory is cheaper than building Hubble.

Very nice Wonder, but it's not game-changing and consistently comes higher than it warrants on 'best Wonder' polls.