[Modular Modmodmod] Keepers of the Holy Places

Personally I think increaseing the Hammer cost of the Pilgrim to include the cost of a monk is more than enough balance for the short term.

it will give the player a choice of Pilgrim vs Settler AND increasing Opportunity costs because of the extra time your not building something else.

If you wanted to add a touch more Add a cast time to Pilgrimage. 2 or 3 or 4 turns. tweak that number. Would slow down expansion some. If you like Start it at 4 turns and decrease it over time with certain Technologys. Exploration drops it to 3, Optics to 2...

Would also mean you could keep it on the initial settler but would have to use 4 turns to "reroll" your start location.

Hm, make it value some UF's more than others.

Remove the Tithe, and add Yield bonuses to Unique Features.

Maybe, have the Tithe use some sort of average happiness or percentage of cities with your state religion or something instead of Unique Features?

Some changes coming (see changelog in first post). Thank you all for the feedback!

Changing yield from UFs is actually the simplest idea and the way I first implemented this a long time ago. However, it was a little unsatisfying from a flavor perspective. If I give Letum Frigus a big food bonus (to compensate for icy terrain) then it just looks like Yggdrasil. So this mechanic just makes all UFs blur together. Also, what exactly is there to eat at Letum Frigus? The Pilgrim's Tithe at least gives some idea where that food is coming from (realistic? no, but you're looking in the wrong place for that). It also is meant to substitute for normal trade.

Also, I don't need much of a hard mechanic to make these cities act like an "outpost." They can only get local happy resources for a while, which acts as a pretty strong size limit. This goes away as they get connected up to your trade network. Connecting them up may be trivially easy (an explorer going up the coast) or much harder (requiring Astronomy) or nearly impossible (on an island but not near coast, no rivers).

On costs and randomness. I'm aiming for a 50% failure rate on new cities. This is hard because it depends so much on map script. This should compensates for the free novice or monk. The randomness -- spawning close or far, good terrain or bad, no hostiles or next to 30 skeletons -- is all part of the fun.

maybe stupid idea to have a "waiting time" + a limitation :

any settler gets spell "pilgrimage".

spells pilgrimage goes :
-need elohim settler + elohim palace (or summer/winter palace + elohim nationality) (thus can only be casted in capital in early game and in some megalopolis in the mid-late game)
(-makes immediatly a builing in capital : - 5 -2, removed when caster is removed; rise the cost of a pilgrimage compared to a standard settler)
-spell has a 5-10 turn duration until completion (thus comes the waiting time)
-end of spell : kill the caster, summon a (pilgrim/settler + a novice/monk) next to a UF that is not in Elohim's borders or not too close from Elohim culture. (or : teleport the caster to the UF and summons a novice/monk) thus : building in captial is lost, production returns to normal, the settler has moved, you can't go directly from settler construction to UF in 1 turn, you can't send pilgrims from a new-founded city.

For a balance point of view, maybe the summoned novice/monk can start with "weak" + "heroic defense II" (+city defense I?), thus he looks like a normal novice/monk but minus 1 attack.

only issue : I'm not sure is it possible that a spell can have both an immediat effect and an effect coming only after a casting time.
(Edit : a way would be :
settler casts "pilgrim" (in capital/winter/summer palaces) - cast : building said building, summon a permanent "pilgrim of Shirona", and kill caster : said pilgrim of shirona has 2 spells : "pilgrim" to maintain the building in place, and "pilgrimage". Pilgrimage is autocasted on summoning turn; then as before : 5-10turns, teleported...Etc)
Instead of autocasting the spell pilgrimage : pilgrim of shirona has a "held" promotion and thus, the player has choice to cast "pilgrim" or cast "pilgrimage".. cannot move the unit to lose the building. "pilgrimage" removes the "held promotion" upon completion.
only issue: infinite settler => "pilgrim"=> "pilgrim of Shirona"=> "pilgrim"=> "pilgrim of Shirona"=> "pilgrim"=> "pilgrim of Shirona"...Etc from the AI.)

As a side note, I really like the Tithe system (not tested it, but the idea is good). I especially like the way you changed it, more food-production in small cities, more commerce in large cities, but worth less than the food/

There are going to be 17 different "Orders," one for each unique feature. These are, first of all, buildings that will appear in each city founded near a UF (needed for some housekeeping functions). They are also promotions that will be gained by Monks and Paladins produced in these cities, or gained by visiting Monks or Paladins if they don't already have an Order. The building effects and promotion effects will be appropriate in some way to the UF. Most effects will be fairly mild, but I'll boost the ones that are hard to get (the 2 water UFs) or in inhospitable locations (all the arctic ones). I've come up with some names below. Some I like but some could probably be improved. Please give me suggestions or comments (if you don't like one and want to say so, please give me an alternative). It should be obvious which belongs to which.

Brotherhood of Trenton
Keepers of the Well
Wardens of the Fell Lich
Order of Dragons
Watchers of the Pass
Witnesses of the Godslaying
Order of the Storm
Order of Heaven
Order of Chains
Order of Tears
Order of Fire
Order of Patria
Bridget's Champions
Order of the Compact
Order of Stone
Order of Sucellus
Order of the One Tree

Pazyryk said:

There are going to be 17 different "Orders," one for each unique feature. These are, first of all, buildings that will appear in each city founded near a UF (needed for some housekeeping functions). They are also promotions that will be gained by Monks and Paladins produced in these cities, or gained by visiting Monks or Paladins if they don't already have an Order. The building effects and promotion effects will be appropriate in some way to the UF. Most effects will be fairly mild, but I'll boost the ones that are hard to get (the 2 water UFs) or in inhospitable locations (all the arctic ones). I've come up with some names below. Some I like but some could probably be improved. Please give me suggestions or comments (if you don't like one and want to say so, please give me an alternative). It should be obvious which belongs to which.

Brotherhood of Trenton
Keepers of the Well
Wardens of the Fell Lich
Order of Dragons
Watchers of the Pass
Witnesses of the Godslaying
Order of the Storm
Order of Heaven
Order of Chains
Order of Tears
Order of Fire
Order of Patria
Bridget's Champions
Order of the Compact
Order of Stone
Order of Sucellus
Order of the One Tree

Click to expand...

Orders sound interesting. I'd make the arctic ones grant Ice/tundra combat bonuses, like the desert ones desert bonuses.

I think Order of the One Tree could be changed, maybe Order of the world tree? Maybe Keeper of the Grove? Keeper of the World Tree?

You could perhaps have a variety of order type names:

Order of the X, Keepers of the X, Guardian of the X, Champion of the X, Watchers, Witnesses, Brotherhood...

maybe the "witnessess of the godslaying" (letum frigus?) can have +50% against hero, same bonus type as the "Nether Blade" (Sidar hero's sword) (or maybe +1 cold damage : high bonus for a low quality terrain UF).

Warden of the Fell Lich : +10% resist magic +10% resist death. (that comes with guarding a lich)
Order of Sucellus : medicI/II
Watchers of the pass : +10%fleeing, sentryI (how do you watch for the gragoyles ?) or maybe +50% against golem, +50% against demons, (quite powerful, but the UF does not give any bonus nor mana + it is generaly in mountains.)
Order of Stone : earthII (can use "stoneskin" powerful but for a UF in the desert)
Order of Heaven : sunII (can use "blind" ; powerful but for a UF in the desert).

Well, in fact, most of it depends on the relation of the elohim with the UF : Do they learn from the UF ? do they try to guard against the UF ? do they try to contain the gargoyls ? or do they try to mimick them? idem for the lich ; in the opposite way, warden of Sucellus could be holy warriors protecting sucellus's shrine, thus empowered with power : ex : 5%healing after each combat. or are they scholar trying to bend the power of sucellus to their need ? Order of dragon : do they study the bones to learn to kill dragons and beasts ? or do they try to mimick the dragon, gaining strength ? or do they use the bones in order to make weapons out of dragon bones ? ...

Thus I think the name (watcher /warden/order/witness) should reflect how the elohim interacts with said UF.
Thus, IMO, before we propose you some effects, maybe you could tell us which way it is. Or if any ways are ok.

Paz,

Love what you have done with this mod, I have to second making an installer if you can. It is a real pain in the !@# for those of us who enjoy playing, but aren't computer types, to get the files in the correct place. Great Mod!!

JoMac

Thanks for the work, I love this new mechanic !

Just a little bug fix : when I try to pilgrim and there isn't a valid location (I suppose) I get a python exception and the settler doesn't move, but still gets the Arrived promotion.

I'll provide screenshot and/or save if you want.

I love the new ideas for the Orders, in fact I even renamed my cities to match the UF before reading about the additions

Some city Names I used (not happy about all of them but if it gives you ideas ...)
- Brigit's Jaol
- Lich Ward
- Pine Grove
- Bhaal's Flame
- Lugus' Light
- Fall of Mulcarn
- Sirona's Tears
- Kilmorph Legacy (for Standing Stones)
- Aifon Memorial (wanted Danalin's Sorrow but not enough characters )
- Twisting Tides
- Ward of Hate
- Sacred Ash (I think Yggdrasil is an ash tree in the Norse mythology, don't know about FFH lore on thisone)


And I change the name to Abbey somthing when I build an Abbey in there

Regarding Orders promo ideas, we have to keep in mind that they are here to help defend but shouldn't be too good because ALL Monk and Hospitaliers built there will get it. Bad terrain is compensated for by the Tithe, so a bad terrain UF shouldn't give a better promo.

Please continue the good work, can't wait to get my hands on next version

@Silaor

Bug fixed already in 0.12.

What's "Jaol" in Brigdet's Jaol?

Renaming cities is an interesting idea. They could take the name of the Order (some right now aren't so good as city names, but some are OK). The default city names would go to cities not near a UF.

@JoMac, I'll have an installer eventually, but it's something I have to learn and my plate's pretty full. I know it's a real pain to find the mod files especially in Vista. It's buried deep in some hidden files with names that make no sense at all. Let me know if you need help finding (you can then create a shortcut on your desktop).

I was looking for an old term for jail, seems the correct word was gaol ...

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jail

Gaol is pronounced the same as Jail (as far as I know), but is simply an alternative spelling. A lot of old Jails in Ireland and England carry the spelling.

At least I think it's pronounced the same.

Let me know about balance on this one. I haven't played a real game very far because I've been too busy feature-testing under various contrived situations in the WB. Some of the high-level Order spells are not implemented yet (you will see a button for it, you can even press it, but nothing will happen). Also, the Order promotions show up just fine in the unit window, but appear as big pink boxes in the mouse-over view. I'll fix when I figure it out.

Changelog for 0.20 (will break saves)

1. Sirona's Pilgrimage requires Myticism (start settler can no longer cast)
2. It converts settler to a Sirona's Pilgrim that is then transported to a UF (still gaining Novice or Monk); has small defense value (although if escort lost, they are probably toast) and starting settler promotion
3. Sirona's Pilgrim can only settle "near" a unique feature. Near is defined as 3 tiles radius for land UFs or 4 tile radius for water UFs.
4. An unclaimed UF near any Elohim city will become "claimed". A UF-specific building is placed in the city (called an "Order"). A UF can only be claimed by one city (the original claimer; doesn't matter if a new city is closer). However, if that city is captured or razed, a new city can claim the UF.
5. Pilgrims civ trait effect on trade changed to -30% commerce (this is still needed for balance)
6. Any city can have Pilgrim's Tithe. The Pilgrim's Tithe can add food, production and/or commerce dynamically. New cities receive mostly food and secondarily production. Mid-sized and larger cities that have typical food and production yield receive only commerce. Changes are gradual, capped by overall civ size, affected by Elohim-specific buildings (especially reliquary) and city culture production, and respond partly to needs of the city. Total yields from trade network are deducted one-for-one from total Tithe level. So you will likely "zero out" the Tithe in a developed, trade network-connected city, but you will always receive at least the normal trade yield.
7. The Homeland building is required to build settlers. It is always present in the capital and is gained by any city within 7 tile radius of another city with this building. A city can have Homeland and an Order.
8. Pilgrims civ trait allows small chance for religious spread between Elohim cities not connected by trade route. It only works if you have the holy city and it is your state religion.
9. Monastery building; only buildable in cities that claim a UF, requires Priesthood; increases Tithe and has other small boosts
10. Monks or Paladins in a city with Monastery gain a UF-specific "Order" promotions. These give UF-appropriate benefits (the ones that are hard to get or in rough places are generally stronger). Monks or Paladins in the city that do not already have an Order also gain this promotion.
11. A Novice or Monk serving as escort for a Sirona's Pilgrim gains the appropriate Order promotion when the Pilgrim settles (no building or tech prereq for this)
12. Novices are base 3 str/def (no Medic promotion); they become 4 str/def with Philosophy and 5 str/def + Medic I with Way of the Wise.
13. Any new city founded by Sirona's Pilgrim takes the name of the Order as its city name (cities founded by settler have default city names even though they can have an order).

Sounds like a good improvement. I'll give it a go later, one thing I might recommend is to also allow Homeland building to be gained if a city reaches a certain population (I'm not sure what, maybe 10? 20?), that way you can get another node of growth going later on.

EDIT: Or a winter/summer palace could work.

You already have the benefit of a government center there (that's unavoidable; otherwise, you get constant messages asking you to split off a colony). I think you should have to go through the trouble of sending a boat with settler.

You might want to wait for 0.21 (coming soon I hope). It has some balance changes and improvements to the Order system after I got to play 0.20 for several hours (plus all spells implemented).

Order of Heaven sounds too close to the Order from Heaven religion. May I suggest Order of Light ?

I thought of that. It's a problem with using the term Order. Hence, I'm calling them "Monastic Orders" in the first post writeup to make it sound a little more distinct. But the religion is really called "Order" not "Order from Heaven" (I know a long time ago there was a tech called "Orders from Heaven", but no longer). "Order" in the religion name refers to lawfulness. "Order" in "Monastic Order" refers to a group or organization. And Heaven is not Junil's exclusively so I don't think an order dedicated to Heaven necessarily refers to Junil worship. More strange is an order dedicated to Sucellus or a tree when you are following Order as a state religion. But I think it's those weird inconsistencies that make FFH so interesting.

Couldn't you call them : "The Mirror's guardian"

Pazyryk said:

You already have the benefit of a government center there (that's unavoidable; otherwise, you get constant messages asking you to split off a colony). I think you should have to go through the trouble of sending a boat with settler.

You might want to wait for 0.21 (coming soon I hope). It has some balance changes and improvements to the Order system after I got to play 0.20 for several hours (plus all spells implemented).

Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that colonies still existed in FFH?

An alternative arrangement would be to have whatever building grants bonuses from being next to the Feature, giving -100% maintenance. That way you build a Summer/Winter Palace there later and make that city into a true center.

However you have to beware that there is an exploit there already, all one has to do to enable the city to build settlers is simply to relocate the capital to that city.

I think allowing summer/winter palace to serve as an additional center of settlement would be a good compromise. You don't get those buildings until relatively late, so they won't really enable the settler boom.

I didn't try -100% yet. I did try -40% (without the government center) and that is when I saw colony messages almost every turn. I can't remember if it gave an option to split the colony, but I do remember it complaining about colony costs. -100% also removes costs from number of cities (government center doesn't), which would make courthouses and such pointless. Another possible solution altogether is to create a civ-specific civic that gives -100% distance costs. I'm not sure if this would solve the colony costs messages, however.

@Calavente, Maybe something along those lines. In this case they are protecting and taking inspiration from a heavenly artifact. I don't think Mirror's Guardian conveys that.