SGOTM 15 - Xteam

leif erikson · Mar 30, 2012

We finally have taken Tokyo, just seemed to take forever to get there. :coffee:

We lost 2 Cats and an Axe. However, we have a problem because we cannot see one of Toku's cities and another we really do nto want, but could take it and gift it to another civ. Otherwise, Toku is about ready to give us all he has except IW. :dunno:

<<< The Save at Central >>>

We have met all the civs. The AI Team is Inca and Malinese

Situation:

Log:
Reload game and continue:
Turn 118 – 75 AD
Change research to Alphabet at 0%
Promote Axe to CR2 in Kyoto.
Decide to hold Great Prophet for Golden Age, makes the most sense.

IBT
We stumble upon a Babalonian Spy near Pat.
Hammeragawa founded a new city, Mari.
Delhi Cat => Cat as a place holder.
Pat Cat => Forge.
A Japanese Spear (CBT3) shows up on the Workers to the east.

Turn 119 – 100 AD
Move stack east and there is a road north of the forest.
Change civics to OR.
Change build in Delhi to Hindu Missionary.
Advance troops.
Just checked and Elizagawa is now in WHEOOH

IBT
Sword comes south out of the city to our north and Spear moves NW.
Delhi Missionary => Missionary.
Bombay Cat => Cat.

Turn 120 – 125 AD
Move stack east that was abandoned by Workers and Spear and find Hattie’s borders to the NE.
Advance troops.

IBT
Vijay Cat => Forge.
Mausoleum of Maussollos built in a land far away.
Japanese Sword returns towards city.

Turn 121 – 150 AD
Workers chopping at Pat and Vijay.
Advance troops.
They chopped the forest that was east of the city.
Change build in Varanasi to Axe.
Change Espionage points to focus on Elizagawa.

IBT
Japanese Sword attacks our lead stack and dies.
Another Sword comes from the east.
Delhi Hindi Missionary => Cat.
Bombay Cat => Axe.
A Great Engineer is born far away.

Turn 122 – 175 AD
Try to spread Hinduism in Kyoto and fail. :mad:

Change build in Bombay to a Hindu Missionary.
Advance troops.

IBT
We meet Cyrusgawa. He is cautious towards us.

Turn 123 – 200 AD
We are running out of cash. :eek:

Axe attacks Japanese Sword at 76.54% and dies.
Axe attacks Sword at 99.55% and kills him, find the Japanese city of Satsuma.

IBT
We meet Mansagawa, he is annoyed with us.
We meet Genghigawa nd he is Cautious towards us.
Delhi Cat => Library.
Bombay Hindu Missionary => Library.

Turn 124 – 225 AD
Trade Gold to Genghigawa for 3 gpt.
Move Hindu Missionary to Kyoto and Hinduism spreads there.
Move Hindu Missionary to Osaka and Hinduism spreads there as well.
Change civics and we are now in Paganism.
Begin moving troops adjacent to Tokyo (on grass) and it contains:
1 Sword (CBT2)
1 Axe (CBT1, Shock)
2 Spears (1 – CBT3, 1 – CBT1/Cover)
3 Archers (CG2 plus Drill1)
1 Settler.
No Cats, thankfully.

IBT
We meet Hyanagawa, he is annoyed with us.

Turn 125 – 250 AD
Battle of Tokyo.
Bombard with wounded Cat and reduce culture from 40 to 32.
We have 10 Cats and he added a Sword IBT, so time to attack with Cats.
CR1 Cat attacks Sword at 5.14% and dies.
Barrage1 Cat Archer attacks at 18.4% and survives.
B1 Cat attacks Archer at 62.55% and survives.
B1 Cat attacks Axe at 48.79% and dies.
CR1 Cat attacks Sword at 81.82% and survives.
CR1 Cat attacks at 92.01% and survives.
Cat bombards defense down to 24%
Cat bombards defense to 16%.
CBT1/Shock Axe attacks Axe at 96.4% and kills him.
CBT1/Shock Axe attacks Sword at 99.88% and kills him.
Axe attacks Spear at 99.9% and kills him.
Axe attacks Archer at 99.75% and kills him.
Axe attacks Archer at 99.75% and kills him.
Axe attacks Archer at 99.64% and kills him.
Axe attacks Spear at 99.0% and kills him.
Axe attacks Sword at 100% and kills him, we take Tokyo, 112 Gold and two Workers.

Move an Axe to the north and capture another Worker.

We can see 2 of Toku’s three cities, the captured Barb one is missing.
Toku will give us all his techs, except IW, for peace.
@z – You were correct, all the civs have Buddhism and are members of AP, except Toku now. With his missing city, not sure how we can keep him from gaining Buddhism again?
edit - And thanks to z3 for the excellent army he built for me. :thumbsup:

leif erikson · Mar 30, 2012

The In-game log Part 1:

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Mar 30, 2012

Part 2:

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Mar 30, 2012

Roster:
Undecided - UP
Mad Professor - On Deck
The-Hawk
Htadus
Cactus Pete
zamint3
leif

Cactus Pete · Mar 30, 2012

Good job, leif.

Couple quick observations:

Don't see a reason not to negotiate peace now.

May well be able to get IW for peace if we avoid HA and Med. In any event, we can trade for considerable gold and research it if necessary, along with the option of switching back to OR in four turns.

Most of the wounded units SE of Tokyo will heal just as fast if left in place while the two workers in Tokyo road that tile.

If we wait to attack Egypt, we'll have to deal with WEs and cats, so rather go quickly and be able to bunch units without fear of massive collateral damage. May lose a cat or two to crossbows. Next unit built near the front should be a spear.

Don't think a forge is appropriate for Tokyo.

We can pillage the copper mine 3S of Tokyo.

leif erikson · Mar 30, 2012

Cactus Pete said:
Don't see a reason not to negotiate peace now.

May well be able to get IW for peace if we avoid HA and Med. In any event, we can trade for considerable gold and research it if necessary, along with the option of switching back to OR in four turns.

The only real difficulty is that we do not know where Toku's last city is, and it is now his capital. If he picks up Buddhism, then we'll need to think fast to figure out how to make an AP vote favorable to us. Until the religion spreads, it isn't a problem, he currently has Judaism.

Perhaps z3 can divine how many of Hattie's cities are Buddhist? We need to concentrate on them as much as possible, easy to say, but tough if we do not know where they are... :dunno:

Cactus Pete said:
If we wait to attack Egypt, we'll have to deal with WEs and cats, so rather go quickly and be able to bunch units without fear of massive collateral damage. May lose a cat or two to crossbows. Next unit built near the front should be a spear.

There is a Spear in Kyoto iirc.

Would be nice to have some XBows soon. Pikes too.

edit - And Trebs. (I know, I want it all)

Cactus Pete said:
Don't think a forge is appropriate for Tokyo.

Nah, just a placeholder. Probably a Granary.

Mad Professor · Mar 30, 2012

Good job leif. I agree with CP on IW - perhaps undecided can try to see if he will accept peace including IW if we let another tech drop. We are part way to it, so it's not worth the huge amount it would be if we hadn't put any beakers into it.

Not being able to find his barb city is a problem. The best solution at this point though is probably to hit Hatty ASAP and make sure she doesn't have any Buddhist cities before such time as Toku's capital gets buddhism.

Cactus Pete · Mar 31, 2012

Don't see any way to deal with Toku's missing city at the moment. Just more reason to make another AI non-Buddhist ASAP (along with gaining ivory and WEs).

BTW, one reason to wait 'til next turn to negotiate peace would be the probability of picking up another worker or two. They might outlive their utility once the forests around the new Japanese cities are chopped. Could we gift them back to Toku at some future date without Open Borders? If not, we could just delete them.

May want to wait to research at 100% until the library in Delhi is completed, especially if we can negotiate for IW.

Undecided · Mar 31, 2012

Good job, Leif.

"Got it".
Will look closely at the save later today and try to come up with a sound PPP.

There is an interesting diplo situation in the making, with several AI in WHEOOHRN-mode and toku closing borders with hatshe. Maybe somebody will finish tokus missing city for us. Probably best to go after hatshe as long as she doesn't have WEs and Cats. But we'll see.

zamint3 · Mar 31, 2012

Looks good leif

I have to go skiing again next week, leaving today, France this time.

I hope to keep up with the progress from time to time.

leif erikson · Mar 31, 2012

Undecided said:
There is an interesting diplo situation in the making, with several AI in WHEOOHRN-mode and toku closing borders with hatshe. Maybe somebody will finish tokus missing city for us. Probably best to go after hatshe as long as she doesn't have WEs and Cats. But we'll see.

I believe we are still their worst enemy. Since Toku converted to Judaism, they are no longer close. It would be nice if one of them absorbed Toku's useless cities. It is even m ore important that we need to keep him safe in Kago.

Cactus Pete said:
BTW, one reason to wait 'til next turn to negotiate peace would be the probability of picking up another worker or two. They might outlive their utility once the forests around the new Japanese cities are chopped. Could we gift them back to Toku at some future date without Open Borders? If not, we could just delete them.

Yes, unless he deletes them, they are ours. I think we picked up three during my set, so losing them is not a huge problem.

Cactus Pete said:
May want to wait to research at 100% until the library in Delhi is completed, especially if we can negotiate for IW.

Agree.

Undecided said:
"Got it".
Will look closely at the save later today and try to come up with a sound PPP.

There is so much we do not know that if you wish to work it in phases, that would be fine.

zamint3 said:
I have to go skiing again next week, leaving today, France this time.
I hope to keep up with the progress from time to time.

I am so jealous.

Notice the wording, "I have to go skiing". :mischief:

And French ski bunny piccies are always nice. Oooh la-la. :lol:

Mad Professor · Mar 31, 2012

zamint3 said:
Looks good leif

I have to go skiing again next week, leaving today, France this time.
I hope to keep up with the progress from time to time.

Est-ce que tu travail de temps en temps?

I'm hoping the war preps are against Toku, even though we are worst enemies - the AI will sometimes do that when a player gets really down (like he's been properly thumped) and suddendly reduces in popularity (like he changes religion). Toku did this in this game. The odds of the target not being us is made higher by our high power rating.

Having said all that it still could be us...

The-Hawk · Mar 31, 2012

Two reasons to grab Satsuma: gain access to the east and one less city to get infected with Buddhism. However, I agree it is better to attack Hatty immediately before she has WE. We can come back for Satsuma later.

Should move the warrior in Patalip to Varanasi to be an MP and get rid of unhappies.

Undecided · Mar 31, 2012

leif erikson said:
There is so much we do not know that if you wish to work it in phases, that would be fine.

Agree. It's the best course of action.

Diplo:

-Options

1. Grabbing Satsuma + workers as fast as possible and negotiate peace
2. Grabbing the workers next turn and negotiate peace

Don't think we want any of his cities in a peace deal. (kago or Sats)

Couple AI's are in WHEOOHRN-mode but they might attack toku. Will keep a close eye on this. Nothing we can do at this point.

Research:

In any case, i'll try to get IW instead of HBR in the deal. He's willing to give us everything except IW. If he doesn't want our offer i'd take it with HBR and would tech IW next. If we get IW i'd lean towards Eng for a couple turns to get it bulbed in 1 turn.

Next target:

Hatshe, who has CBs if i'm not mistaken but misses Construction for cats and Construction+HBR for WEs.

Not really a choice i think.

Trading:

Because we don't need our stone in the near future (or is anyone a fan of fast-walls

) i'd sell it for 4 gpt to shakagawa.

AP:

Vic-vote (441 of 589 votes)

Next election is in 2 turns. We're very safe, 133 votes are missing, making it impossible for eliza to call a vic-vote even if toku would flip (and shaka and hatse would vote for her). The AI-team has the necessary population to safe us.

Cities:

Dehli: Lib (2t) >> Cat
Bombay: Lib (4t) >> spear
Vija: Forge (24t), continues to run specialists
Pata: Forge (1t) >> spear
Vara: Axe (8t)
Osaka: Granary (2t) >> Barracks
Kyoto: Continuing forge or switch to lib??
Tokyo: Switch to library

Workers:

W1 (near vija) - finish cottage -> cottage 1W of vara
W2 (near vija) - finish farm -> cottage 1W of vara
W3 (near bom) - cancel watermill -> (pre)chop forest on deer near dehli
W4 (near pat) - finish mine -> (pre)chop forest on deer near pat
W5 (near osa) - finish farm -> Chop 1SE of osaka
W6 (near osa) - finish cottage -> chop 2E1N of osaka
W7 (near osa) - finish chop -> mine hill 1NW of kyoto
W8; W9; W10 (near tok) - road 1NE of tokyo, then 2 join the stack to help quickroading if necessary. the other one moves towards kyoto to chop
The soon captured workers will improve tokyo.

Army:

Depending on our decision, our troops will either heal and then move towards satsuma or group up in tokyo to heal and then head towards hatshe.

Warrior from pat to vara for MP-duty.

If we sign peace with toku, i'd move medic-axe, spear and 3 cats out of kyoto to join the mainstack and pillage the coppermine on the way.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'll be playing in ~16h so there is enough time to get feedback, suggestions and make improvements.

Will either play until we capture satsuma or declaration against hatshe if we have a better view of her land. If something very important happens i'll stop.

Opinions please!

Cactus Pete · Mar 31, 2012

Undecided said:
Diplo:

-Options

1. Grabbing Satsuma + workers as fast as possible and negotiate peace We may get hit with war weariness next turn, which would make quick peace clearly preferable, as many of our cities are at max pop for happiness. Also, wouldn't taking Satsuma (and with it Toku's religion that is generating animosity) reduce the probability of AIs DOWing on him rather than us?
2. Grabbing the workers next turn and negotiate peace Probably optimal, as don't think we need Satsuma to go east (Egypt very likely to have nice coastal city or two). Satsuma would have value for the gold we'd capture with it and perhaps as a city to gift to Egypt after the war, but question whether that is worth turns and units at this point.

Don't think we want any of his cities in a peace deal. (kago or Sats) Concur. Rather have techs.

Couple AI's are in WHEOOHRN-mode but they might attack toku. Will keep a close eye on this. Nothing we can do at this point. Concur, and if they declare on each other, we might consider going in on one side (in word, if not action) to gain diplo points for eventual tech trading.

Research:

In any case, i'll try to get IW instead of HBR in the deal. That's premature. First try to substitute IW for Med, then for Med and Archery, then for Med and Sailing, then for Med and Archery and Sailing, before giving up the 390 beakers for HBR, which we will certainly want to have after the Egyptian war (conceivably even during it). Please note that if we get Med, a GS will have to bulb Phil once we get CoL, and that might well prove undesirable, so we don't want it now. If we get IW i'd lean towards Eng for a couple turns to get it bulbed in 1 turn. Makes sense.

Next target:

Hatshe, who has CBs if i'm not mistaken but misses Construction for cats and Construction+HBR for WEs.

Not really a choice i think. Concur.

Trading:

Because we don't need our stone in the near future (or is anyone a fan of fast-walls ) i'd sell it for 4 gpt to shakagawa. Concur.

Cities:

Dehli: Lib (2t) >> Cat
Bombay: Lib (4t) >> spear
Vija: Forge (24t), continues to run specialists
Pata: Forge (1t) >> spear Haven't seen a chariot to the west. We have a spear in the area already. Perhaps an axe would be better.
Vara: Axe (8t)
Osaka: Granary (2t) >> Barracks
Kyoto: Continuing forge or switch to lib?? Arguing that a library is premature here. Suggest a desperately needed second spear for the attack on Egypt be chopped there ASAP, then complete forge. (And still prefer barracks there after forge, but that decision can wait.)
Tokyo: Switch to library Rather chop the forest 2SE into a spear the turn Tokyo comes out of anarchy, if that forest has not already become part of Sat's culture. Then what about just building tech there? Long time to get a library built starting with just 3 pop.

Workers:

W1 (near vija) - finish cottage -> cottage 1W of vara Don't you mean Vij?
W2 (near vija) - finish farm -> cottage 1W of vara see above
W3 (near bom) - cancel watermill -> (pre)chop forest on deer near dehli
W4 (near pat) - finish mine -> (pre)chop forest on deer near pat What about moving both 3&4 to begin chopping forests SW of Bombay?
W5 (near osa) - finish farm -> Chop 1SE of osaka Farm can wait for wkr 6/7 to complete. Stop work on farm now and send worker next turn to chop forest on grass hill NW of Kyoto into spear
W6 (near osa) - finish cottage -> chop 2E1N of osaka
W7 (near osa) - finish chop -> mine hill 1NW of kyoto
W8; W9; W10 (near tok) - road 1NE of tokyo We don't need a road NE of Tokyo next turn. Two workers in the city should road the grass tile SE of the city next turn while the units (except for badly damaged cat) heal there, then one of them should go to the plains hill NW of Kyoto to help complete the spear chop., then 2 join the stack to help quickroading if necessary.
The soon captured workers will improve tokyo.

Army:

Depending on our decision, our troops will either heal and then move towards satsuma or group up in tokyo to heal Only the most severely damaged cat would heal more quickly in the city than it will by remaining in place and taking advantage of our supermedic. and then head towards hatshe. How they should head toward Hatshe will depend on how Egypt's culture re-asserts itself. Another reason to delay roading and unit movement. Concerned that Egypt will attack our stack with multiple chariots, first wounding and then eliminating our one spear, thereby making the stack rather vulnerable to addtional chariots followed up by crossbows.

Warrior from pat to vara for MP-duty. Good.

If we sign peace with toku, i'd move medic-axe, spear and 3 cats out of kyoto to join the mainstack and pillage the coppermine on the way. Even if we don't sign a peace treaty, that would seem the thing to do.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'll be playing in ~16h so there is enough time to get feedback, suggestions and make improvements.

Will either play until we capture satsuma or declaration against hatshe if we have a better view of her land. If something very important happens i'll stop.

Opinions please!

Until Tokyo expands, don't think we want any more roads towards Egypt that would faciltate AI movement.

What about trading tech for gold? Strongly advocate that.

leif erikson · Apr 1, 2012

Short on time atm. :eek:

Generally agree with CP's comments. A bit worried about heading into Hatse territory with an Axe and Cat army and the possibility of facing multiple Chariots. Attacking Hatse soonest, as long as we have counter to Chariots, is a really good idea. :thumbsup:

Trying to grab Japanese Workers before peace sounds like a good idea, especially since we have them trapped. Not sure he won't just delete them. Techs for peace as soon as we can is good. Like CP, giving up Meditation for Alpha and IW is good. We should really try to get Archery so we can build XBows as soon as we have Iron. :please:

Undecided · Apr 1, 2012

Thanks for your input CP and Leif.

I'll make the changes to the PPP, as long as nobody else has a problem with it.

Agree, that i didn't think about the tech-deals with toku enough. So i'd like to hear more opinions about the techs we want from toku because this has to implications for our grand strategy.

Vija is good on improvements, so the plan was to get W1 and W2 away from there building the cottage at vara which works unimproved grassland right now and it won't get better when it gets the MP unit.

Pata will build an axe after forge.

I think we can handle the loss of one hammer from the deer forests. Those two commerce we gain will save us 1 turn before going into strike if i'm not mistaken.
After that we could chop the forests SW of bombay. I'd see the point though, these are high yield tiles after all.

Will also build spears as proposed.

With regard to techselling. The best deal is 220 gold for MC to hammu. Should we do that or not? I will look for more opportunities, mainly selling priesthood to the Team-AI, but for more than only 20 gold, and mono to shaka, don't know if we should take the 60 gold or hope for more.

I'll not play on for now, waiting for more input on the research deal, as this is important.

The-Hawk · Apr 1, 2012

leif erikson said:
A bit worried about heading into Hatse territory with an Axe and Cat army and the possibility of facing multiple Chariots. Attacking Hatse soonest, as long as we have counter to Chariots, is a really good idea.

Leif raises a good point... I would hold off on Hatty until we have a couple of spears. Chopping/whipping might speed it up.

CP said:
What about trading tech for gold? Strongly advocate that.

I tend to shy away from tech trading for gold in military victories, unless I am getting pretty high value (more than 50%) or I can trade the same tech multiple times. Otherwise, I feel I am accelerating their research more than mine. However, given we have no other way to trade techs I agree we should be aggressive on trading for gold. I think 220 for MC is reasonable.

Undecided said:
I'll not play on for now, waiting for more input on the research deal, as this is important.

I agree with CP's proposed approach. Swap IW for Med, then Med/Archery, then Med/Sailing.

I don't understand why we are researching Alpha, doesn't seem important to me. I think Currency would be much better, especially given the state of our economy. Building wealth is better than building research.

leif erikson · Apr 1, 2012

The-Hawk said:
Leif raises a good point... I would hold off on Hatty until we have a couple of spears. Chopping/whipping might speed it up.

This could be a tough call. If we wait too long, Hatse will be getting War Elephants and Horse Archers. :eek:

If we go too soon, we stand the chance of being eaten alive by a stack of Chariots. :cringe:

There is a Spear in Kyoto that can move while we heal. Could chop/rush a Spear in Kyoto perhaps, as I think CP suggested?

The-Hawk said:
I agree with CP's proposed approach. Swap IW for Med, then Med/Archery, then Med/Sailing.

I don't understand why we are researching Alpha, doesn't seem important to me. I think Currency would be much better, especially given the state of our economy. Building wealth is better than building research.

Thinking Alpha would help for building some research but also giving us Spies.

Think the main tech we really need next is CoL's for Caste. Just need to get Kyoto up to speed.

Also, in the tech for peace, thinking Archery is more important to us than Sailing, although Sailing provides more value. If we get Sailing without Archery and find that we have Iron, need to get Archery quickly for XBows. Does Hatse have techs for Maces? :eek:

I have no idea what units Hatse has because we haven't seen anything but Scouts, have we?

Mad Professor · Apr 1, 2012

I'm agreeing on the attack Hatty soonest, but we need a couple more spears first comments.

For techs I think we need IW urgently - at this stage of the game we need to know where the iron is (surely we even have a mine on ours already? Toku had iron!) The swords (and especially xbows with archery) will be very helpful to us. If Hatty has xbows, we want to get our own xbows fast, or she'll chop us to bits as we advance, or at least make cities very expensive to capture.

For peace we get as many techs as possible, but I'd put IW near the top of the priority list, and archery up there also.

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