C2C - Wonder Civs

Koshling said:

Tame ones get organisation and training. Anyway, the point is about game balance. The embassy isnt trivial to build. If its not worth skipping other stuff (bar in mind you tie up your only city at that point) nobody will build it.

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The "tame" one starts with Combat I (if I understand the XML correctly) and that unit is technically the earliest that has Str 3 I believe. So there IS some value in that. (And of course they can get promotions)

I think higher STR would be too much, so if you think it needs to be stronger, then maybe Shock or Woodsman?

EldrinFal said:

The "tame" one starts with Combat I (if I understand the XML correctly) and that unit is technically the earliest that has Str 3 I believe. So there IS some value in that. (And of course they can get promotions)

I think higher STR would be too much, so if you think it needs to be stronger, then maybe Shock or Woodsman?

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I think as they get used to your city during training, their city attack penalty should be a lot lower compared to their wild cousins.

AIAndy said:

I think as they get used to your city during training, their city attack penalty should be a lot lower compared to their wild cousins.

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'Ahhhh, he's domesticated...'
'...cuddle that and you'll never play the piano again'

I presume this is the thread for discussing the way we are implementing the new cultures?

I really like the way it works with the exception that it only affects the city the specialized cultures are built in. I would prefer that:

1) We qualified to build Specialized Cultural 'seeds' which spread that specialized culture (like a good) to each city it is currently engaged in trade with (including other nations).

2) That these Specialized Cultures were world wonders. The qualifications usually make sense but having them dispersed the way they are does not and it makes it very frustrating trying to get a particular one into your military production city where it makes it worth having access to a particular UU.

3) I like being able to qualify to build other Specialized cultures thanks to having access to another... makes some of the world cultural evolution make sense. But yeah... still needs to be more limited and based on World Wonders.

1. I think this defeats the purpose of having cultures linked to resources/terrains. Why have that if a culture can be in every city?

2. Again I feel that specialized cities is almost "power playing" the game. Not every elite unit should be possible to build in your military city. You may need more than one military city or choose better locations for them based on units the cultures can build there. There should never be a "silver bullet" that gives you everything in one city.

3. How do you mean? I have some that require other cultures such as Mexico requiring Culture (Spanish) and Native Culture (American).

1) Conversely, being able to build, say, Greek Culture in 4 of your cities while the rest cannot, while in addition all around the world the greek culture emerges in various cities with Marble etc... makes it completely irrational.

A culture is a founding feature of a civilization, the glue that binds people together. We want to make it a more 'biological' system wherein what culture we adapt is based on terrain features and other qualifiers that explains why WE became Greek and THEY became something else... but this dispersal of one city with such a culture here and one city with such a culture there is just madness.

While a culture may emerge because of particular conditions, say Egyptian because of the nile valley atmosphere, once established, its impact doesn't stop there... it spreads. We want it to spread across borders and show that a nation is more than one culture, sure, but not to appear happhazard where it emerges.

I'm not suggesting a culture can be immediately spread to every city, only those connected to the seed city by ACTUAL ongoing current trade.

2) The fact that this mod allows this sort of play is part of why I play it. Therefore we would normally need to consider a solution that allows for an option but my suggestion should be a workable compromise. It doesn't immediately preclude a culture founded in a far south city would be able to be adopted in your capital and you may wish to develop a secondary military center down that way if you really like the troops it can grant you. Keep in mind that included in this suggestion is a reliance on a factor you cannot control and that is what cities your city decides to trade with. It WOULD however make it more compelling to utilize a civic that closes your trade borders so that most of your trade routes become internal.

3) Byzantine culture said something about requiring Greek culture as one of its prereqs? There were other examples and I thought it interesting that one culture could become the prereq of another.

In reading my above post I see how confusing my suggestion must be expressed there.

So let me re-explain.

City A qualifies for building Greek Cultural Emergence (a world wonder) via the same qualifications we currently employ. It builds it. Now Greek culture cannot emerge from any other source. All cities that City A is then trading with may build Culture (Greek) (not automatically granted except to the city that built the wonder.) This may in fact unlock other Cultural Emergence wonders as Culture (Greek) may well qualify a city to found the Roman Cultural Emergence wonder or some other new culture. Once the Culture (Greek) building is built in a city, that city has taken full advantage of and has fully adopted into its fabric the Greek culture thanks to trading with the original Greek city. It cannot further spread from there but city trading changes as the game goes on and when City A stops trading with city B that built Culture (Greek), it does NOT lose the Culture (Greek) building. So its a take advantage of the situation when the situation is there kind of affair.

City C, trading with City B but is not trading with City A does not get enough of a dose of the original cultural seed and thus cannot also build Culture (Greek) there, even after City B has build Culture (Greek).

Very important to note the difference between 'connected by trade route' and 'currently trading with' when considering this system. The Culture (x) buildings would need to be 1 round builds at any time to select to capture the cultural influence while its there or we'd see a lot of frustrating notifications about 'cannot continue to build' issues.

Now, keep in mind that this means that larger cities with more trade routes would gain more access to more cultures and that would be a neat side effect benefit of having and developing out your trade routes!

This would not be entirely unlike the religious centers and how they spread except that we don't have missionaries and the spread is based on actively choosing to build a building that is available purely because your city is directly trading with the city that founded a particular culture.

This would certainly take a new XML field I think but that may not be too difficult as the game already considers this sort of trade route connection for its natural religion spreading. Might be more than could be done from a purely xml modders perspective though.

1. So basically we are back to the original concept of the civs being a wonder? And then we have it have it produce a free building (like a "good") that enables for the units and buildings of that culture?

3. Goods already spread via trade routes (like resources do). So I think we are on the same page here. My problem should i make them into a "wonder or a "good"? If I make the current culture building into a "wonder" and make a new "good" building then SO will have to reassign every unit and I every building to a new tag. But if I make all the existing buildings into a "good" then I will have change all their requirements and apply them to the new "wonders" which would need them.

Speaking of Mexico... how about making it also require Culture (Aztec) or Culture (Mayan), seeing as the majority of Mexicans are mestizos (culturally and ethnically mixed between Spanish and these groups) and Article 2 of the Mexican constitution defines it as a pluricultural nation. Or is that what the Native Culture (American) is meant to represent?

Praetyre said:

Speaking of Mexico... how about making it also require Culture (Aztec) or Culture (Mayan), seeing as the majority of Mexicans are mestizos (culturally and ethnically mixed between Spanish and these groups) and Article 2 of the Mexican constitution defines it as a pluricultural nation. Or is that what the Native Culture (American) is meant to represent?

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That's already covered with Native Culture (American). Its a bit harder to do with other countries such as what tribe for USA or Canada or Australia? Better just to use the known parent country and then the region they colonized.

Otherwise the city would need 3 resources in the city vicinity; Spanish, Aztec and Mexican. Right now all you need is Spanish + Mexican.

Thunderbrd said:

1) Conversely, being able to build, say, Greek Culture in 4 of your cities while the rest cannot, while in addition all around the world the greek culture emerges in various cities with Marble etc... makes it completely irrational.

A culture is a founding feature of a civilization, the glue that binds people together. We want to make it a more 'biological' system wherein what culture we adapt is based on terrain features and other qualifiers that explains why WE became Greek and THEY became something else... but this dispersal of one city with such a culture here and one city with such a culture there is just madness.

While a culture may emerge because of particular conditions, say Egyptian because of the nile valley atmosphere, once established, its impact doesn't stop there... it spreads. We want it to spread across borders and show that a nation is more than one culture, sure, but not to appear happhazard where it emerges.

I'm not suggesting a culture can be immediately spread to every city, only those connected to the seed city by ACTUAL ongoing current trade.

2) The fact that this mod allows this sort of play is part of why I play it. Therefore we would normally need to consider a solution that allows for an option but my suggestion should be a workable compromise. It doesn't immediately preclude a culture founded in a far south city would be able to be adopted in your capital and you may wish to develop a secondary military center down that way if you really like the troops it can grant you. Keep in mind that included in this suggestion is a reliance on a factor you cannot control and that is what cities your city decides to trade with. It WOULD however make it more compelling to utilize a civic that closes your trade borders so that most of your trade routes become internal.

3) Byzantine culture said something about requiring Greek culture as one of its prereqs? There were other examples and I thought it interesting that one culture could become the prereq of another.

In reading my above post I see how confusing my suggestion must be expressed there.

So let me re-explain.

City A qualifies for building Greek Cultural Emergence (a world wonder) via the same qualifications we currently employ. It builds it. Now Greek culture cannot emerge from any other source. All cities that City A is then trading with may build Culture (Greek) (not automatically granted except to the city that built the wonder.) This may in fact unlock other Cultural Emergence wonders as Culture (Greek) may well qualify a city to found the Roman Cultural Emergence wonder or some other new culture. Once the Culture (Greek) building is built in a city, that city has taken full advantage of and has fully adopted into its fabric the Greek culture thanks to trading with the original Greek city. It cannot further spread from there but city trading changes as the game goes on and when City A stops trading with city B that built Culture (Greek), it does NOT lose the Culture (Greek) building. So its a take advantage of the situation when the situation is there kind of affair.

City C, trading with City B but is not trading with City A does not get enough of a dose of the original cultural seed and thus cannot also build Culture (Greek) there, even after City B has build Culture (Greek).

Very important to note the difference between 'connected by trade route' and 'currently trading with' when considering this system. The Culture (x) buildings would need to be 1 round builds at any time to select to capture the cultural influence while its there or we'd see a lot of frustrating notifications about 'cannot continue to build' issues.

Now, keep in mind that this means that larger cities with more trade routes would gain more access to more cultures and that would be a neat side effect benefit of having and developing out your trade routes!

This would not be entirely unlike the religious centers and how they spread except that we don't have missionaries and the spread is based on actively choosing to build a building that is available purely because your city is directly trading with the city that founded a particular culture.

This would certainly take a new XML field I think but that may not be too difficult as the game already considers this sort of trade route connection for its natural religion spreading. Might be more than could be done from a purely xml modders perspective though.

Click to expand...

some questions on this.what if i have conquered a foreign culture city.will m y culture spread

Neither the US, Canada nor Australia are majority mixed indigenous-European though, nor are the indigenous cultures of their homelands represented in any significant way in their culture.

Current game I'm playing as dutch, but after European the only other Cultures available for me are Celtic, Roman, and German. And the cities they 1st appear in need 70-90 turns initially to have That Culture. Seems Waay to long.

How do I get Dutch if I have to have so many preq resources for it to "happen"? I've got too much else going on to worry about where I need to place my city for a culture, when in the long run it's what Valuable resources can I get If I settle here. Not what culture I "might" get in this spot. And in the early stages of the Game not all the resources are exposed to help make that kind of decision. So in the long run it all boils down to "Luck". At least that's how it's working for me.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

How do I get Dutch if

JosEPh

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you cant its random. based on the map and its resources .for that reason i never liked this system even if it is a lot better that the previus thats why i cheat a bit using the in game editor to add the resource while deleting another

Hydromancerx said:

1. So basically we are back to the original concept of the civs being a wonder? And then we have it have it produce a free building (like a "good") that enables for the units and buildings of that culture?

Click to expand...

Yes but the "good" wouldn't spread the way goods currently do.

If you look in your city top left, just under the commerces, you'll see a list of cities that your city is currently trading with. These are not just all the cities you CAN trade with but are the cities you are ACTUALLY trading with. Now, if you are looking at the city screen from the city that built the world wonder for a particular culture, those cities in its trading list there would currently be able to CHOOSE TO BUILD the "good-like" culture building.

So it would be very different than just being connected by the opportunity to trade, aka the network of roads, rivers, and coastlines that allow for trade to take place with a given city. By this ability to trade with route establishment, you freely spread "good" buildings now, even freely build them in connected cities. Thus, cultures would not be so conveniently spread as goods.

On the other hand, this means that cultures can quickly spread ACROSS national borders too if international trading is being engaged in.

This CAN be a bit manipulated by clever players choosing who to adopt open borders and free trade agreements with in hopes that a culture access may suddenly appear where they wish it in their own cities.

Hydromancerx said:

3. Goods already spread via trade routes (like resources do). So I think we are on the same page here. My problem should i make them into a "wonder or a "good"? If I make the current culture building into a "wonder" and make a new "good" building then SO will have to reassign every unit and I every building to a new tag. But if I make all the existing buildings into a "good" then I will have change all their requirements and apply them to the new "wonders" which would need them.

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I got a little twisted around in the last part there so I can only answer what I think I'm answering here and let me know if it covers the question.

I would create new world wonder seed buildings for each culture, give those seed buildings the same qualifications to build as we currently have for the Culture (x) buildings we currently use, then remove the current requirements to build the Culture (x) buildings we are using now from those buildings.

The new requirement on the Culture (x) buildings would be derived from an XML field I think we would need to develop still and I've been thinking on how to do that. It would be something along the lines of a field that states a prerequisite of: "can build when this building exists in a city we currently have a trade route with" (then we just put the world wonder cultural seed building in this slot.)

I was going to talk to our dll guys about this. I have a vague idea of how such a field could be derived but they might be able to code that in minutes where it could take me many hours to figure out. Still... it should be relatively easy to set up.

It should be important to note that there should be no change to the current 'continental' level cultural buildings, nor how they work to help to qualify for the development of other cultures (just that the development of another culture is a real achievement under this concept). These work nicely to set up some great game strategies and starting points and just makes having the Assimilation on a very fun option.

Speaking of Mexico... how about making it also require Culture (Aztec) or Culture (Mayan), seeing as the majority of Mexicans are mestizos (culturally and ethnically mixed between Spanish and these groups) and Article 2 of the Mexican constitution defines it as a pluricultural nation. Or is that what the Native Culture (American) is meant to represent?

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We could certainly give some more thought to cultural evolutions here and it could really help to 'build' to modern nations this way... the level of realism could really get nicely layered with such a system. In some ways, Aztec culture could be derived from Mayan culture which was derived from American culture. Mexican culture could thus be born where Aztec culture and Spanish culture exist in the same city.

some questions on this.what if i have conquered a foreign culture city.will m y culture spread

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'Your' culture is going to be a pretty subjective term in such a system. Due to this reason the answer is both yes and no.

Yes, provided that you have an immediate trade connection such as a road or a river or a coastline etc... to the newly taken city and its not cutoff from your trade network, you would immediately spread to that city your founding continental level culture (as these spread like goods). This would be freely placed in your newly conquered city.

But the culture(s) you have captured with world wonders are not so automatic. Only if by chance one of your cultural birthplaces begin direct trade with that newly captured city would you have the opportunity to build the Culture (x) building that would mean that cultural heritage has taken root there.

Neither the US, Canada nor Australia are majority mixed indigenous-European though, nor are the indigenous cultures of their homelands represented in any significant way in their culture.

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But we could certainly say that the US culture is only foundable where you have British and American culture overlapping, Canadian culture where you have French and American cultures (think of the founding Canadian culture, US culture has become so thickly imbued that original Canadian is greatly diluted throughout most of the nation today).

With such a system you could also reflect Kurds, Creol, and lots of other peoples that have never had a real nation to call their own. Example: Creol culture born in Haitti, Haitti is so small it only trades with New Orleans in the United States, thus only New Orleans has built Culture (Creol). If Haitti grows in future influence, the culture may spread a bit wider eventually.

Some cultural emergences may only be qualified to take place if a particular religion exists there, or even only in the holy city of a particular religion: Jewish Culture born only in the birthplace of Judasim, Creol only in the birthplace of Voodoo, etc...

I mean we could have a LOT of fun getting very accurate with real world evolutionary causes for each culture that really exists.

Current game I'm playing as dutch, but after European the only other Cultures available for me are Celtic, Roman, and German. And the cities they 1st appear in need 70-90 turns initially to have That Culture. Seems Waay to long.

How do I get Dutch if I have to have so many preq resources for it to "happen"? I've got too much else going on to worry about where I need to place my city for a culture, when in the long run it's what Valuable resources can I get If I settle here. Not what culture I "might" get in this spot. And in the early stages of the Game not all the resources are exposed to help make that kind of decision. So in the long run it all boils down to "Luck". At least that's how it's working for me.

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If we do our job right, the player that knows their 'Dutch history', that understands fundamentals about what it is to be Dutch and how the Dutch emerged, or the player who simply does his research in the civopedia, should be able to work themselves into becoming fully Dutch at some point.

It shouldn't be completely luck based or haphazard at all, but this system would benefit from having more than just Great Farmers to help give players the power to self determination on resource placement and thus foundational cultural achievments.

I've brought up discussion asking for more of these resource spreading agents (Great Prospector, Great Lumberjack, Great Fisherman) and with the way cultures are largely qualified for, such units would be critical to making it less a matter of Luck and more a matter of forethought and planning to accomplish the building of a desired Cultural Wonder.

Knowing what it will take to achieve a complex set of goals so as to bring about the emergence of the Dutch culture in your lands before its done by an AI player would be one of the greatly enjoyable challenges such a system would present.

Thunderbrd said:

If we do our job right, the player that knows their 'Dutch history', that understands fundamentals about what it is to be Dutch and how the Dutch emerged, or the player who simply does his research in the civopedia, should be able to work themselves into becoming fully Dutch at some point.

It shouldn't be completely luck based or haphazard at all, but this system would benefit from having more than just Great Farmers to help give players the power to self determination on resource placement and thus foundational cultural achievments.

I've brought up discussion asking for more of these resource spreading agents (Great Prospector, Great Lumberjack, Great Fisherman) and with the way cultures are largely qualified for, such units would be critical to making it less a matter of Luck and more a matter of forethought and planning to accomplish the building of a desired Cultural Wonder.

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On that note, I have to jump in and say that we've already been talking about LIMITING the Great Farmer. Dancing Hoskuld made a good point when he said that they destroy the point of a trade system since you can essentially get every resource in your empire and then never need to trade. They also tend to make your corporations VERY powerful. Finally, I don't think the AI uses the Great Farmer very well, if at all, and in addition to using it merely to give the bonus resource, teaching it to build them for the purpose of founding cultures is a whole other challenge.

Sure it's fun to be able to uber your nation up with additional resources, but I think that concept is OP as is and needs big limitations put in place.

Knowing what it will take to achieve a complex set of goals so as to bring about the emergence of the Dutch culture in your lands before its done by an AI player would be one of the greatly enjoyable challenges such a system would present.

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I made a similar suggestion in another thread awhile back to make cultures WW because I thought it was silly that the same culture could emerge in two different places in the world. Offhand I can't recall why Hydro didn't like them, but he didn't. Maybe because they are so hard to get as is? Or because the AI doesn't know their value or how to actively pursue them? I can't recall.

I'm fine with his decision on that, but I agree with Joseph that founding culture's is based more on luck than anything else. The resources have to be near you, they have to be visible, and there can't be a better founding spot for a city. Honestly, when I found cities I look at the resources available at the time, and also proximity of ocean and rivers. I will go to encapsulate the most I can and not really considering any particular culture.

There is a mechanism for spreading stuff via trade routes already, just not in C2C. In the "World Religions" mod religions and many diseases spread by trade route some like wild fire some slowly. Maybe we should consider that mechanism for cultural spread also. It is on my list for the unhealthiness mod but a generic solution would be better.

It was due to this taking place that I thought the coding might be possible to use that connection to qualify a city for building a building based on a prereq building being in a city its trading with.

@Eldrin: I really don't feel its overpowered or illogical what the great farmer currently is. It takes the guy forever and a day to do his job and you can only have one at a time. Furthermore, its completely rational when you look at real world spread of resources and grains and animals in use etc. In fact, to be more closely connected to reality, we'd have to ease up on the poor guy... I mean he really works hard to do what he does and since its not a reversable issue, you can sometimes end up making decisions you regret with him.

The problem is that we have a yes/no resource system, not a volumetric one. And if we start looking at it from that angle and looking for solutions there rather than trying to 'nerf' the farmer, I think we'll see what needs to be done eventually.

Without the farmer and units like him, we become at the mercy of chance for determining cultural foundations and I'd like to give us more strategic choice than less.

JosEPh_II said:

Current game I'm playing as dutch, but after European the only other Cultures available for me are Celtic, Roman, and German. And the cities they 1st appear in need 70-90 turns initially to have That Culture. Seems Waay to long.

How do I get Dutch if I have to have so many preq resources for it to "happen"? I've got too much else going on to worry about where I need to place my city for a culture, when in the long run it's what Valuable resources can I get If I settle here. Not what culture I "might" get in this spot. And in the early stages of the Game not all the resources are exposed to help make that kind of decision. So in the long run it all boils down to "Luck". At least that's how it's working for me.

JosEPh

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You can see all the Culture Civ requirements here or click on the tech tree link in my signature and then click the 2nd page.

Specifically for Culture (Dutch) you need Mercantilism tech + Forest terrain feature + Spices resource in City Vicinity.

@Thunderbrd
If you can help make it happen I am all for it. All I know its a a heck of a lot of work already, and if we are going to have such a complex system I will need help converting the existing culture buildings.

I think it would be a pretty straightforward affair once the xml field is established. (aka if I can find any time for the gold system audit I could most likely do it at the same time.)

Good. Just let me know what you are altering in my folder and I will leave it alone. Then updated it to the SVN and I can update my own copy. Note this would be after the "freeze period" is over of course.