Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

Quite rightly too, if I had been depressed I would have seen it as a personal attack and "taken my ball and gone home". especially as you did not have a suggestion for substitute to fill the later hunter.:mischief:



Attack and Defense bonuses can be done in the unit infos but I a not sure about speed which is why I suggested the promotion.

If you can do the ones in the core unit infos file I will do the subdued ones and the ones in alt timeline and zExperimental. that way we wont be trying to change the same files at the same time.

@StrategyOnly/Koshling, Does this count as bug fixes for the SVN freeze or should we be waiting until the next release?

I will put a list of all the animals in the opening post.


As i understand it, the freeze goes off the evening of the 12th, morning of the 13th for you guys over there. Then get as much in as you can till noon the 14th, hows that for an answer?:p (Pls correct me if i am wrong)
 
Quite rightly too, if I had been depressed I would have seen it as a personal attack and "taken my ball and gone home". especially as you did not have a suggestion for substitute to fill the later hunter.:mischief:

With so much on your plate I figured I wouldn't bother you with the triviality of a minor XML change. But lesson learned :)

I can suggest values for the intermediary unit, I just don't have the experience to create a whole new unit yet. FFH has a Beastmaster unit that I believe comes post Ranger, but IIRC it's a dude with a black panther so not sure if that is fit for non-alternate timeline.


If you can do the ones in the core unit infos file I will do the subdued ones and the ones in alt timeline and zExperimental. that way we wont be trying to change the same files at the same time.

I will put a list of all the animals in the opening post.

Ok. Will do.
 
As i understand it, the freeze goes off the evening of the 12th, morning of the 13th for you guys over there. Then get as much in as you can till noon the 14th, hows that for an answer?:p

No the point of the freeze is to make sure we don't add anything unstable and untested before we release. Freeze comes off AFTER we release V18. So whenever that happens start putting in whatever you see fit. Until then just tweaks and fixes. I don't mind a reasonably liberal interrpetation of 'fix' but the question you need to ask yourself fundamentally is 'am I introducing any stability risk by doing this?' So by way of examples:

Low risk vs reward (fine to push before V18):
  • Small tweaks to values in existing XML (like Eldrin's civic balancing so long as it doesn't make huge and radical changes)
  • New units or buildings that are not themsleves depended on by other stuff, and only use existing items as dependencies (so existing promotions etc.)
  • Python or C++ fixes to things that are currently causing definate severe issues (such as CTDs)

Medium (borderline acceptable):
  • Fixes to non-critical bugs (like the way the tech score doesn't show up maybe)
  • New cultural units/buildings that use existing mechanisms

High risk (don't do it until after V18 is released):
  • Major new asset category stuff (like new civics, or radical changes moving civics between categories)
  • Entirely new promotions
  • New building chains
  • Entirely new mechanisms in the DLL or Python
  • Substantial enhancement to existing mechanisms
 
No the point of the freeze is to make sure we don't add anything unstable and untested before we release. Freeze comes off AFTER we release V18. So whenever that happens start putting in whatever you see fit. Until then just tweaks and fixes. I don't mind a reasonably liberal interrpetation of 'fix' but the question you need to ask yourself fundamentally is 'am I introducing any stability risk by doing this?' So by way of examples:

Low risk vs reward (fine to push before V18):
  • Small tweaks to values in existing XML (like Eldrin's civic balancing so long as it doesn't make huge and radical changes)
  • New units or buildings that are not themsleves depended on by other stuff, and only use existing items as dependencies (so existing promotions etc.)
  • Python or C++ fixes to things that are currently causing definate severe issues (such as CTDs)

Medium (borderline acceptable):
  • Fixes to non-critical bugs (like the way the tech score doesn't show up maybe)
  • New cultural units/buildings that use existing mechanisms

High risk (don't do it until after V18 is released):
  • Major new asset category stuff (like new civics, or radical changes moving civics between categories)
  • Entirely new promotions
  • New building chains
  • Entirely new mechanisms in the DLL or Python
  • Substantial enhancement to existing mechanisms

That is what I thought, but thought it best to ask. It is also why I did not ask when getting rid of all those audio errors, except for two they were just typos. With the last two being errors of omission - I had not included the definition XML.:blush:

So I reckon the strength and movement changes on the animals are OK to do with the promotions being added into the next version. Similarly I can add new wild animals but not new subdued animals and their buildings until the next release. Especially as I can't test any changes to the Python code at the moment. (I think I may need to reinstall BtS then C2C - I just can't get past turn 2 in C2C.)
 
Therefore I assume that "native" = bonus to attack/defend. Or are you meaning something else?

I assumed he ment attack/defend. That's what I ment.

Thanks for the vulture. As for the size of cassowary, I was trying for same size as the hunter.

Ah ok. However I think scale 30.0 is about the right scale for most of the creatures I am extracting from ZT2.


Glad someone finally defined what the freezes do.
 
I assumed he ment attack/defend. That's what I ment.



Ah ok. However I think scale 30.0 is about the right scale for most of the creatures I am extracting from ZT2.

Is there ANY way to have these NEW animals at least LOOK like they are attacking, as it is now they just stand there:sad:
 
I'm not sure who among us is an animator. I know I could probably figure it out but I know it would take me a long time... that's very tedious work to animate. There could be some shortcuts but yeah... its a bigtime patience game to animate especially with the crude tools at use in this engine.
 
I have tried applying animations from other units but the ones I have chosen have not worked. Most four footed animals use the horse animations which is why the animated camel, cow and giraffe look like the animal was made in a laboratory by some mad scientist.
 
@Koshling or @AIAndy

Would it require a lot of work to get the following tags available in the UnitInfos.xml ?

TerrainDoubleMoves : Halves the movement cost for the unit on this type of terrain.
FeatureDoubleMoves : Halves the movement cost for the unit on this type of feature.

These already exist in the Promotions XML.
 
@Koshling or @AIAndy

Would it require a lot of work to get the following tags available in the UnitInfos.xml ?

TerrainDoubleMoves : Halves the movement cost for the unit on this type of terrain.
FeatureDoubleMoves : Halves the movement cost for the unit on this type of feature.

These already exist in the Promotions XML.

No, but why not just give the promotion free to that unit type?
 
No, but why not just give the promotion free to that unit type?

There aren't separate promotions for each individual type. And I didn't see anything for Savanna (possibly others as well).
 
There aren't separate promotions for each individual type. And I didn't see anything for Savanna (possibly others as well).

I'm not following you. What's not separate in the promotions? Are you saying there is one promotion that gives the half cost for all terrains rather than one each for each separate terrain? If that's the case surely (since we already have aspects of it in promotions) we should just flesh out the promotions then solve the units by giving free promotions (why add a totally new mechanism?)
 
I'm not following you. What's not separate in the promotions? Are you saying there is one promotion that gives the half cost for all terrains rather than one each for each separate terrain? If that's the case surely (since we already have aspects of it in promotions) we should just flesh out the promotions then solve the units by giving free promotions (why add a totally new mechanism?)

Sorry, I'll try to clarify.

The promotions in place now are mostly centered around TERRAIN. There are a few exceptions such as WOODSMAN which is for the Features of Forest and Jungle. In that case, it's one promotion to gain benefit to BOTH.

Right now there is no promotion specific to Savanna, Sword Grass, Bamboo, or most of the Features (or Forest separate from Jungle). Since those Features can spawn on different types of Terrain, in order to ensure the animals always get the bonuses on those Features, I would need to use multiple Promotions for different Terrain. In doing so, that would also give them bonuses on different Features-- ones not laid out according to the list DH posted and/or the ones setup by myself, ThunderBird, and Hydro.

In the UnitInfos there is already tags for attack and defense (same tags that are in the Promotions XML). But the Movement bonus ones are "missing." Although they DO exist in the Promotions XML. I am assuming one tag that exists in one XML cannot simply be used in another XML without special coding.

So either promotions specific to those Features need to be made, the two tags need to be included in the Unit XML, or we just over/under promote the animals and accept a few inaccuracies.
 
Sorry, I'll try to clarify.

The promotions in place now are mostly centered around TERRAIN. There are a few exceptions such as WOODSMAN which is for the Features of Forest and Jungle. In that case, it's one promotion to gain benefit to BOTH.

Right now there is no promotion specific to Savanna, Sword Grass, Bamboo, or most of the Features (or Forest separate from Jungle). Since those Features can spawn on different types of Terrain, in order to ensure the animals always get the bonuses on those Features, I would need to use multiple Promotions for different Terrain. In doing so, that would also give them bonuses on different Features-- ones not laid out according to the list DH posted and/or the ones setup by myself, ThunderBird, and Hydro.

In the UnitInfos there is already tags for attack and defense (same tags that are in the Promotions XML). But the Movement bonus ones are "missing." Although they DO exist in the Promotions XML. I am assuming one tag that exists in one XML cannot simply be used in another XML without special coding.

So either promotions specific to those Features need to be made, the two tags need to be included in the Unit XML, or we just over/under promote the animals and accept a few inaccuracies.

Ah I see. It would be easy to duplicate any promotion tags on the units directly if that's the best thing.
 
Ah I see. It would be easy to duplicate any promotion tags on the units directly if that's the best thing.

I'm open to other suggestions, I just figured that would be the best way. The tags are there for attack/defense bonuses already, just not movement. Unless it IS already setup, but simply no unit has that in effect at the moment.

It seems like it would be easier than to create a promotion for every single feature separately.

Anyhow, let me know what you decide. I've made the number changes to the Movement and Combat Strength, but I'll hold off on the terrain/feature stuff until a decision is made. :)
 
I think a line of animal specific promotions for this purpose is an easier way to work it than adjusting the coding for units. If we're to adjust the coding for units, we could streamline that coding to an XML field that simply asks for 'Native Terrains' to be listed. Then we establish static beneifts for 'native terrains'.

But I think that could hedge us into irrational solutions so imo its much better to create a line of 'Native Terrain' promos that can be assigned or taken away from animals (as free promos) as we debate out their native habitats.

Once that line of promos is developed, it would give us a bit more simple building blocks to work with and would make it more visible to the player how to hunt or avoid being killed by a particular animal encountered in the field.

So in short, the promos are more visibly obvious and appealing in play I think. The other way suggests we need to really pay attention to move and combat bonuses listed (and this could suffer from a lack of streamlining and thus a lack of balance) on each individual animal.
 
I think a line of animal specific promotions for this purpose is an easier way to work it than adjusting the coding for units. If we're to adjust the coding for units, we could streamline that coding to an XML field that simply asks for 'Native Terrains' to be listed. Then we establish static beneifts for 'native terrains'.

But I think that could hedge us into irrational solutions so imo its much better to create a line of 'Native Terrain' promos that can be assigned or taken away from animals (as free promos) as we debate out their native habitats.

Once that line of promos is developed, it would give us a bit more simple building blocks to work with and would make it more visible to the player how to hunt or avoid being killed by a particular animal encountered in the field.

So in short, the promos are more visibly obvious and appealing in play I think. The other way suggests we need to really pay attention to move and combat bonuses listed (and this could suffer from a lack of streamlining and thus a lack of balance) on each individual animal.

I completely disagree. For one, we already hashed out their "native terrain" in this very thread on the previous page. That HAS to be determined for other things as well including spawn points and ANY kind of bonuses we give them for terrain.

Creating promotions requires buttons and other various things. We would need one for each feature if we're going to be exact in what we're doing here.

Also, keep in mind that the tags I'm talking about are ONLY for the Movement bonus. The Attack and Defense tags are already in place in the UnitInfos xml file. Having the tags available for the units specifically would mean we could assign a movement bonus to one animal and not to another, even if BOTH are getting terrain attack/defense benefits. With promotions it's all or nothing (since typically the attack/defense/movement are all wrapped up in one.)
 
The Attack and Defense tags are already in place in the UnitInfos xml file. Having the tags available for the units specifically would mean we could assign a movement bonus to one animal and not to another, even if BOTH are getting terrain attack/defense benefits. With promotions it's all or nothing (since typically the attack/defense/movement are all wrapped up in one.)
And that's actually, imo, the positive element in doing it this way. This is what I mean by streamlining. We can throw off our balance by overthinking and overcomplexifying. It would be easier and more 'game' appealing from the playing perspective if we simply know that all animals in their native habitat get say +25% combat benefit (both on attack and defense) and 1/2 mv penalties in their native terrain, while Predators (another stock free promo) get +25% on attack, Herbivores get a stock bonus retreat chance and Omnivores get +25% on defense.

The simplification makes it much more pleasing from the player's perspective and keeps us from developing headaches from overthinking the animals too much.
 
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