End of Empires - N3S III


Lurker's comment: Not to provoke you or anything, but how does the state pass any laws or decisions when they usually have to agree about a subject, not vote about it? People don't usually agree about their nation, especially not spoiled aristocrats.

It worked for Novgorod. And by worked I mean it eventually failed miserably and pathetically, but the boyars there sure had it good while everyone else was too weak to harm them. Poland-Lithuania did have voting and also the liberum veto, which is pretty awesome in that if you and you alone do not agree with the decisions (and are a member of the Sejm), you can just put your foot down and keep everyone from getting any work done out of sheer spite. It went well. Also: the British Cabinet, though that required giving the Prime Minister more and more power to force through a consensus.

Consensual oligarchy is a pretty awful way of actually running a state, but can be a very nice political compromise, and as long as there are some recognised common interests it is possible to make it work, if squeakily.

It actually did work in the case of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederation.

I honestly keep forgetting what country Kal'thzar was playing in the first place was called (Duroc?), but its language should do fine for this, if not quite as well as Arabic did for Islam or Latin for Catholicism.

Thearak. The issue is not that languages are hard to learn, the issue is that no one language is already spoken across a wide area. Christianity had an easy time because huge numbers of people spoke Greek and Latin, and thus translated texts could be rapidly disseminated. The Arabs were ruling the Muslim world, so people were picking up bits of Arabic already; the jump to learning the religious lingo wasn't that difficult. Otherwise, religions that face language barriers have a hard time traveling quickly: Zoroastrianism was confined to Persia; Buddhism took centuries to spread anywhere outside of Magadha, etc. Religions in this NES will probably follow that pattern.
 
Thearak. The issue is not that languages are hard to learn, the issue is that no one language is already spoken across a wide area. Christianity had an easy time because huge numbers of people spoke Greek and Latin, and thus translated texts could be rapidly disseminated. The Arabs were ruling the Muslim world, so people were picking up bits of Arabic already; the jump to learning the religious lingo wasn't that difficult.

It won't be easy, but I am going for a more Akkadian or Aramaic type of language spread here actually, for reasons that will become more apparent later if all works out well, but for now are limited to me hiring southerner teachers for my theological schools.

Religions in this NES will probably follow that pattern.

Well, they usually do anyway. Don't forget that Buddhism eventually did find an appropriate "host language", even if it never became as universal as Latin or Arabic were to their respective religions. And the Zoroastrians were more confined by not really getting the proselytism thing until it was too late (pre-Kartir Zoroastrianism is not a very organised religion anyway, being more of an umbrella state religious ideology hanging over many, many unstandardised cults that were not universal in character and so no good for a world church).
 
I'm fairly sure that in Magha and much of the western Sesh, a Satarized neo-Bahraic is the standard dialect. Given a good 50 years it will probably become its' own language, especially since the Satar of the river valley and those that remain on (or return to) the north will soon diverge considerably.
 
Ethnically, linguistically and religiously confused and socially and politically shaken regions actually tend to be nice and malleable, unlike more stable cultural areas. I'm sure we'll assimilate you all eventually. ;)
 
I'm fairly sure that the spread of Arabic was helped with the requirement for the Koran to be studied in arabic.

I know my girlfriend had to study it in arabic (swedish), and although she didn't study it for that long, she did proceed quite far.
 
Do you even have a canon holy text as opposed to a collection of writings? If not, then you had better make one, hint hint.
 
there was a collection of the Prophets life that was put out briefly after the death of the Prophet. Then there is of course the various writings.

So I suppose it should be collected; if you want you can add some input into what you think should be put in, you are all valuable members of the religion and the patriarchs in you region will tend to reflect your opinons...
 
Maybe if you could go over the ecclesiastical organisation (again?)? Anyway, if there are several regional patriarchs, now is as good a time as any to hold an ecumenical council.

EDIT: North King, no rush whatsoever, but did you get my PM yesterday?
 
Currently there is a Patriarch in Krato, one in Opios, one in your capital and one in the Kotthorn pass to the Hu'ut.

I am considering the promotion of one in the area of Duroc to better handle their...worries. And one for the East.

the general organisation is Patriarchs over the some defined area, and with priests at the churches/temples, generally with some inner hierarchy between the two, nothing strict yet mostly dependent on the region it acts within and what works.

The Patriarchs are subserviant to the Prime (who really needs a better name), who is also the Patriarch for Opios and Thearakian lands. Who organises things via councils and so forth
 
It actually did work in the case of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederation.

It is my impression that this is how early forms of common democracy (as in, common law, and also primitive rural community and its subsequent offshots) work anyway, before a more strict and formal system of voting is implemented; and it isn't always implemented, especially in places where such common (communal? I don't want to confuse it with the European medieval commune) traditions are particularly strong (i.e. the legalised egalitarian Iroquois communities, or Novgorod, which was based on a strong entrenched common aristocracy).

And ofcourse it can work just fine for a long time, there are just some inherent weaknesses that, when combined with additional internal and/or external complications, are likely to force a reform or a collapse.

one in your capital

The old one or the new one? The old one has the advantage of older theological schools and whatnot, plus it was the capital when you started sending your new wave of missionaries.

(who really needs a better name)

Archpatriarch? Grand Patriarch (informally, the Nonno :p )? Primarch?

The Patriarchs are subserviant to the Prime (who really needs a better name), who is also the Patriarch for Opios and Thearakian lands. Who organises things via councils and so forth

I would be happy to host a council if you will allow that. Where does the Prime reside, anyway?
 
The Prime resides in Opios, where the Prophets tomb is

Archpatriarch sounds nice, but so does the Nonno :p

I think the Patriarch resides in the new capital, I think I wrote a story that indicated that he wanted to be near the centre of "power", and the theological power would follow him anyway, hes their link to the Prime.

Sure host a Council, recent victory and so on, if anything i think that Irraliam faith would be helped with things NOT always being 'dictated' by someone who never moves around :p
 
but so does the Nonno

Or, uh, whatever the help the Thearak word for "grandfather" is.

Sure host a Council, recent victory and so on, if anything i think that Irraliam faith would be helped with things NOT always being 'dictated' by someone who never moves around

It would be a bit remiss if the Grandpa wasn't at least represented, though. Still, I'm all for me dictating things in his place. :p
 
It worked for Novgorod. And by worked I mean it eventually failed miserably and pathetically, but the boyars there sure had it good while everyone else was too weak to harm them. Poland-Lithuania did have voting and also the liberum veto, which is pretty awesome in that if you and you alone do not agree with the decisions (and are a member of the Sejm), you can just put your foot down and keep everyone from getting any work done out of sheer spite. It went well. Also: the British Cabinet, though that required giving the Prime Minister more and more power to force through a consensus.

Consensual oligarchy is a pretty awful way of actually running a state, but can be a very nice political compromise, and as long as there are some recognised common interests it is possible to make it work, if squeakily.

Great, just wanted to know.
 
I would advise against a patriarch in Duroc territory particularly Hala. He would face hatred from the Order and maybe violence, not approved violence if that makes it any better. You are held as the cause for the Kratoan attack on us. Maybe our two religions could work together as they seem similar. I am working on a piece about Duroc philosophy at the moment and then I will finally re-write their religious texts for all to see. We both believe that one true god exists and there is an evil god we must all struggle against.
 
OOC: *groans and shakes head*

Not related to the above, but interesting update. :) Power dynamics FTW.
 
North King said:
The Palmyrians found themselves again undergoing a rather peaceful period. The economy did not grow any further – it seemed to have reached its natural limit, and whenever the people attempted to cultivate new land they almost always found it too marginal to be of any lasting value.

Masada's Malthusian sense is tickling.
 
I would advise against a patriarch in Duroc territory particularly Hala. He would face hatred from the Order and maybe violence, not approved violence if that makes it any better. You are held as the cause for the Kratoan attack on us. Maybe our two religions could work together as they seem similar. I am working on a piece about Duroc philosophy at the moment and then I will finally re-write their religious texts for all to see. We both believe that one true god exists and there is an evil god we must all struggle against.

you realise that there are Duroc people who are part of the Iralliam faith? The update all those years ago mentioned it sweeping accross Krato, so yes he might face hatred from the Duroc people worshipping their own religion, but then he needs to protect the interests of the duroc people who DO worship Irraliam...
 
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