Fair enough. Though I worded it that way for more or less the same reasoning. In my eyes, Greece's UA is mediocre, thus mediocre plus lackluster UU's ends up as a lower tier Civ. Even rating it as 5/5 (not giving it the extra boost past a 5 rating scale) would end up dropping this Civ quite a bit in the list.
An alternative Deity Tier List (a.k.a. 'Don't Forget About Conquest')
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Fair enough. Though I worded it that way for more or less the same reasoning. In my eyes, Greece's UA is mediocre, thus mediocre plus lackluster UU's ends up as a lower tier Civ. Even rating it as 5/5 (not giving it the extra boost past a 5 rating scale) would end up dropping this Civ quite a bit in the list.
Tyrannus29
Chieftain
- Joined
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First of all, check Filthy's tier list on youtube, it is the most proficient list ever. After abusing this game a lot and winning sciences victories on deity before turn 200 on quick speed consistently peaking at turn 184 with America on an isolated, easily defendable position, and after trying a lot of strategies, my thoughts on the tier list are as follows:
The game is easier on faster speeds since the main way to catch up with the AI is to take away his production by killing his units and cities. The AI already has a huge advantage in science, so your window of opportunity is bigger on slower speed, he replaces units slower, upgrading comps to crossbows a bit later, etc. On quick speed, it's impossible to rush an AI with tradition because you don't have enough production to build units fast enough and not cripple yourself afterwards. If you are lucky, you might do it with liberty, and having early game unique units helps a lot, and I'm not reffering to the Maori warrior, I'm reffering to Byzantium, Greece, Babylon, Rome etc. I can't understand why you underestimate Dromons. Yes they are situational, but if you have an opponent with a capital on the coast you can actually rush it with 5 dromons, which is very cheap. That's huge. You get double the land, you eliminate a neighbour. Also, if your capital is attacked you can defend with dromons, they stack with archer units. You can concentrate on something else, like getting a religion, and let the dromons defend your cap. This is not a situational bonus. I suggest you look at other people's ideas before starting to make tier list and stuff. This game might not seem so, but it's very complex and there are a lot of hidden things to learn about it still. My tier list is as follows, I will explain why for each civ. The settings are quick speed, pangaea, 6 players. Quick speed with 8 players is unbalanced, you can't kill enough AI's fast enough, the map is bigger, takes too much turns to get to them before they get to the next era units. Standard map is supposed to go with standard speed. Quick speed with small map. etc. No DIplomatic victory allowed, that will affect Venice's ranking. So here it goes:
Tier 1: Babylon, Korea, Poland, Maya, Inca, China, Persia, Arabia, Egypt
Tier 2: Venice, Huns, England, Austria,Shoshone, Ethiopia, Spain, Greece
Tier 3: India, Russia, Songhai, Siam, Germany, Rome, Aztecs, Siam, Zulu, Brazil, Mongolia( Keshiks obsolete too fast), Assyria, Byzantium
Tier 4: Denmark, Indonesia, Ottomans, America, Morroco, Portugal, France, Carthage, Sweden ( downside of having too many friends is that the AI will also be friends, hence no war between them)
Tier 5: Netherlands, Polynesia, Japan
The game is easier on faster speeds since the main way to catch up with the AI is to take away his production by killing his units and cities. The AI already has a huge advantage in science, so your window of opportunity is bigger on slower speed, he replaces units slower, upgrading comps to crossbows a bit later, etc. On quick speed, it's impossible to rush an AI with tradition because you don't have enough production to build units fast enough and not cripple yourself afterwards. If you are lucky, you might do it with liberty, and having early game unique units helps a lot, and I'm not reffering to the Maori warrior, I'm reffering to Byzantium, Greece, Babylon, Rome etc. I can't understand why you underestimate Dromons. Yes they are situational, but if you have an opponent with a capital on the coast you can actually rush it with 5 dromons, which is very cheap. That's huge. You get double the land, you eliminate a neighbour. Also, if your capital is attacked you can defend with dromons, they stack with archer units. You can concentrate on something else, like getting a religion, and let the dromons defend your cap. This is not a situational bonus. I suggest you look at other people's ideas before starting to make tier list and stuff. This game might not seem so, but it's very complex and there are a lot of hidden things to learn about it still. My tier list is as follows, I will explain why for each civ. The settings are quick speed, pangaea, 6 players. Quick speed with 8 players is unbalanced, you can't kill enough AI's fast enough, the map is bigger, takes too much turns to get to them before they get to the next era units. Standard map is supposed to go with standard speed. Quick speed with small map. etc. No DIplomatic victory allowed, that will affect Venice's ranking. So here it goes:
Tier 1: Babylon, Korea, Poland, Maya, Inca, China, Persia, Arabia, Egypt
Tier 2: Venice, Huns, England, Austria,Shoshone, Ethiopia, Spain, Greece
Tier 3: India, Russia, Songhai, Siam, Germany, Rome, Aztecs, Siam, Zulu, Brazil, Mongolia( Keshiks obsolete too fast), Assyria, Byzantium
Tier 4: Denmark, Indonesia, Ottomans, America, Morroco, Portugal, France, Carthage, Sweden ( downside of having too many friends is that the AI will also be friends, hence no war between them)
Tier 5: Netherlands, Polynesia, Japan
Acken
Deity
You realize some people on this forum have gotten some SV wins before 200 on standard speed right ? And even more regularly around 220. FilthyRobot being a multiplayer player, I'd expect his list to be about MP performances. It's an unspoken rule that S&T forum on CFC is mostly a SP forum. MP stuff are more popular in the MP forum.
It's largely agreed slower speeds (I guess you meant slower) speeds are easier (and Quick is harder then). But no the main way to catch up to the AI is not to kill it. This isn't necessary for non-domination victories.
While slower speed are easier, smaller maps are also easier. Who knows maybe Quick, small is similar to Standard, Standard in difficulty
Egypt tier 1 and Venice tier 2 on deity? Is this a joke?
Abraxis
☮
Why is OP so hard on Sweden Tundra bias? "-1"? I think he is trying to compensate for his positive bias toward them.
Granted it can sometimes conflict with their normal tall preference, but it also has a number of benefits.
1)The unoccupied fog provides you with a constant stream of barbarians to hunt for culture (since you probably took 2 points in Honor).
2)There are usually quite a few city states that also get relegated to the tundra due to real civs taking up the spots in other biases, and this just further compounds the tundra barb flood since they will always be wanting your help against them.
3)You do not have to worry about other civs encroaching as much near your capital, which is kind of a big deal on Deity, especially with a late blooming civ, and extra-especially with a civ which favours peaceful play.
4)You generally get a few more goodie huts than civs with say, a jungle bias, would probably get.
As for the lack of food on a default tundra tile... Most of the time you can take two extra moves at the start and slip right out of it to still have a great placement for making a super capital. Further, I don't think the food thing is a big deal until later in a city's development. You can until then grow just as well as anyone else on the highly efficient and abundant deer and fish tiles. After which you can just prioritize +food buildings or use internal trade routes (you may be isolated anyhow), or Maritime City States.
I think the fact that when you get a really bad one it just stings that much more because confirmation bias over tundra's unappealing primary attributes. You look around and think "yeah, of course, stupid tundra, I should have known better". However I find the reality is, most my games with Sweden on Deity it more often than not works to my favour. I would at least give it a positive rating. Not necessarily high, but at least positive. Do you know how many Deity games I play as other civs and happen into an awesome start which is immediately taken from me by everyone else? This happens way more than being given a truly bad tundra location. But I doubt anyone as often stops to think of how destructive that early competition is compared with the relatively minor food penalty. We are so biased toward potential rather than reality.
Granted it can sometimes conflict with their normal tall preference, but it also has a number of benefits.
1)The unoccupied fog provides you with a constant stream of barbarians to hunt for culture (since you probably took 2 points in Honor).
2)There are usually quite a few city states that also get relegated to the tundra due to real civs taking up the spots in other biases, and this just further compounds the tundra barb flood since they will always be wanting your help against them.
3)You do not have to worry about other civs encroaching as much near your capital, which is kind of a big deal on Deity, especially with a late blooming civ, and extra-especially with a civ which favours peaceful play.
4)You generally get a few more goodie huts than civs with say, a jungle bias, would probably get.
As for the lack of food on a default tundra tile... Most of the time you can take two extra moves at the start and slip right out of it to still have a great placement for making a super capital. Further, I don't think the food thing is a big deal until later in a city's development. You can until then grow just as well as anyone else on the highly efficient and abundant deer and fish tiles. After which you can just prioritize +food buildings or use internal trade routes (you may be isolated anyhow), or Maritime City States.
I think the fact that when you get a really bad one it just stings that much more because confirmation bias over tundra's unappealing primary attributes. You look around and think "yeah, of course, stupid tundra, I should have known better". However I find the reality is, most my games with Sweden on Deity it more often than not works to my favour. I would at least give it a positive rating. Not necessarily high, but at least positive. Do you know how many Deity games I play as other civs and happen into an awesome start which is immediately taken from me by everyone else? This happens way more than being given a truly bad tundra location. But I doubt anyone as often stops to think of how destructive that early competition is compared with the relatively minor food penalty. We are so biased toward potential rather than reality.
Mrdarklight
Warlord
This reminds me of a game I had where I ended up in a war against Byzantium. I went to attack a city with a force that was fully capable of it under normal circumstances, but every unit that got within range of the city was killed in one turn. The city, an archer (or CB, can't remember) and a Dromon in the city. The Dromon made it completely impossible to attack the city.
Now, I think the Dromon is not a great unit, but for very early defense, it is broken.
Mrdarklight
Warlord
OK, having just finished and won a game with Arabia, I'm inclined to agree with you. Assuming you can find the horses, the CA's are wicked. I knew that already, though. What makes them REALLY wicked is a carpet of landships with march, having been upgraded from CA's. I could have won a dom victory and it wouldn't even have been that hard, but I settled for science.
Yup. They're kind of like the poor man's keshik. Except that the "poor man" also gets a very good UB (the bazaar), a good starting bias (desert), a mildly useful bonus to petroleum resources, and a bonus to caravans which I've always found useless, but it's still a bonus.
Mongols, on the hand, get... a really good Great General to go along with their keshiks. Don't get me wrong... khans really are very very good. But compared to the other perks Arabia gets... well...
Poor Mongolia.
Tyrannus29
Chieftain
- Joined
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- 4
I mentioned in the post you didn't fully read that diplomatic victories are not allowed for being too easy. If they are allowed, Venice is tier 1. With Egypt you might get some game-winning wonders like the hanging gardens, collosus, great library( rarely) etc. Thanks for agreeing with everything else I said. Cheers.
Tyrannus29
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2015
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- 4
Yeah, I realize I am not a great civ player, but I think I'm good enough to have a relevant tier list, at least compared to that dude who said byzantium is tier 5.
Your tier list is pretty pointless since you have to mention quick speed 8 times in said post.
Quick isn't what this tier list, or the game is balanced on.
enslingkorp
Chieftain
I honestly don't think that Tyrannus29 is playing on Deity. Egypt is not going to help you get any wonder.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
of course Egypt will help you get wonders, just like increasing production will help you get wonders. I hope you're not being serious.
the Egypt bonus also works towards National Wonders by the way, don't forget that.
you might not get Great Library or Stonehenge in a Deity game, but I regularly get Petra, Chichen Itza, Hanging Gardens, Temple of Artemis, Sistine Chapel and Leaning Tower of Pisa (not all of course, at the most one or two), depending on which I am focusing on. those wonders are better than the heavily early game wonders anyway.
some wonders are even really easy to get: Oracle, Colossus, (because it's so easy to check how many AIs have the technology), Macchu Picchu, one of the Theology wonders, Ideology related wonders, everything in the late game.
they're better than Keshiks in my opinion. what makes the mongols so strong is the Khan in combination with the Keshik.
the strength difference between Keshiks and Camels is absolutely huge to the point where Keshiks get mauled by Knights on roads. we all know the AI has a tendency to mass Knights. Camels also take on Crossbows much, much better. same goes for longbows, the only unit that will really be a problem to the horse archer type units. also Keshiks go obsolote so much earlier than Camels do. Camels can even beat the first two Gunpowder units with ease. with the horse archer type units it's all about your window of opportunity (they don't upgrade well, loose their terrain boni) so being relevant for just 10 or 20 turns longer can and will win you games.
the Egypt bonus also works towards National Wonders by the way, don't forget that.
you might not get Great Library or Stonehenge in a Deity game, but I regularly get Petra, Chichen Itza, Hanging Gardens, Temple of Artemis, Sistine Chapel and Leaning Tower of Pisa (not all of course, at the most one or two), depending on which I am focusing on. those wonders are better than the heavily early game wonders anyway.
some wonders are even really easy to get: Oracle, Colossus, (because it's so easy to check how many AIs have the technology), Macchu Picchu, one of the Theology wonders, Ideology related wonders, everything in the late game.
they're better than Keshiks in my opinion. what makes the mongols so strong is the Khan in combination with the Keshik.
the strength difference between Keshiks and Camels is absolutely huge to the point where Keshiks get mauled by Knights on roads. we all know the AI has a tendency to mass Knights. Camels also take on Crossbows much, much better. same goes for longbows, the only unit that will really be a problem to the horse archer type units. also Keshiks go obsolote so much earlier than Camels do. Camels can even beat the first two Gunpowder units with ease. with the horse archer type units it's all about your window of opportunity (they don't upgrade well, loose their terrain boni) so being relevant for just 10 or 20 turns longer can and will win you games.
enslingkorp
Chieftain
That's my point. The wonders you can get are those that the computer players don't want anywhere near as much, or come later when you caught up or overtake. Those can be got easy without any boost. Sometimes there is competition for Pisa, Petra, Sistine and Itza, but in these cases 20% won't make the difference MOST of the time.
The best wonders are Pyramids, Machu Pichu, and Great Wall. The first two are part of the standard Liberty game, and the third is usually not possible to get.
If you're playing as Egypt, and want to make use of Chariots, you wont build ny wonders, and if you play tall and peaceful then the units and tombs become sort of worthless. Their benefits are therefore mixed. They can't be Tier 1.
vivalamexico
Prince
wat..
You usually don't need extra happiness buildings for tradition, it's only necessary on liberty games. Usually Pagodas and circus can cover it. Faith is good, but really +8 isn't all that useful, most of it will come from dirt or religious CS. Usually I never build temples or even shrines as tradition, there are more important buildings to be building.
If you don't have your own religion you can't be guaranteed to get Pagodas (or Mosques). Then again on Deity this may be a moot point because getting religion is tough, let alone a good one.
If you don't have high faith generation even if you do get that religion you'll be forced to wait a while to get enough faith to build it in all your cities. And there's a penalty attached as the eras roll on. You have to either generate enough for a GP to plant, or manage to keep your pantheon to generate faith. Not unreasonable in either situation.
If you can get away in Tradition w/ just Circuses you're not building tall enough.
If by chance you do have a religion then you can build a Grand Temple for another +8 Faith.
Now, building Temples in BNW is usually not the thing you want to do. But when they have free maintenance and +2 Happiness. That's a huge bonus. It's a big enough bonus to go from 4 City Tradition to 6 City Tradition.
If you don't have high faith generation even if you do get that religion you'll be forced to wait a while to get enough faith to build it in all your cities. And there's a penalty attached as the eras roll on. You have to either generate enough for a GP to plant, or manage to keep your pantheon to generate faith. Not unreasonable in either situation.
If you can get away in Tradition w/ just Circuses you're not building tall enough.
If by chance you do have a religion then you can build a Grand Temple for another +8 Faith.
Now, building Temples in BNW is usually not the thing you want to do. But when they have free maintenance and +2 Happiness. That's a huge bonus. It's a big enough bonus to go from 4 City Tradition to 6 City Tradition.
vivalamexico
Prince
If you're building tall you're most likely going culture or science, where buying GPs is vital. So maximizing your faith output when going tradition is very important, and it's often necessary to build temples
Regarding religious cs, a better investment is science buildings or other types of CS. So burial tombs are very useful for tall play as well
Regarding religious cs, a better investment is science buildings or other types of CS. So burial tombs are very useful for tall play as well
Assuming you do not found, and faith buildings and faith dirt meager at best, without Temples (at Deity) are you able to faith purchase any GP? In my faithless games I still tend to build Temples by the time I unlock factories, and even starting that early I can barely afford two GS before the end of the game.
