Do you ever not take rationalism?

nemesis464

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I've been thinking, and while there is leeway between tradition/liberty starts, and patronage/commerce/etc... , I'm struggling to see why anyone wouldn't take rationalism?

Seems like exploration and aesthetics hardly ever get taken :(
 
rationalism does not have any happiness. I actually avoid it, exept if I am small.
 
rationalism does not have any happiness. I actually avoid it, exept if I am small.

But why? You get 10% science increase from the opener, and from the first policy (secularism?) with the specialists even a wide empire can gain a significant amount of science. Why would a little money be better? Unless you're in a state of perma-war, or REALLY need happiness, but most happiness problems are done by the time you're renaissance.
 
You get more science from scholaticism if you go heavy on city states. If you going culture then aesthetics finisher is a must. Rationalism is just a very boring tree and doesnt help with anything but science. There are other ways to get science.

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You get more science from scholaticism if you go heavy on city states. If you going culture then aesthetics finisher is a must. Rationalism is just a very boring tree and doesnt help with anything but science. There are other ways to get science.

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I get the issue that if I don't really heavily on science, my mates or AI completely out-tech me in units, and can easily smash through my cities.
 
But why? You get 10% science increase from the opener, and from the first policy (secularism?) with the specialists even a wide empire can gain a significant amount of science. Why would a little money be better? Unless you're in a state of perma-war, or REALLY need happiness, but most happiness problems are done by the time you're renaissance.

Gold is everything in this game. If you have a lot of gold, you can do anything at all because you can buy anything at all (units, buildings, tiles, city-states, bribes). Also, you need a very strong gold supply to maintain both infrastructure (buildings) and any defensive force (units) plus any offensive force (and if you don't have defense you will be attacked almost always). The boosts in Commerce are far more than a "little money". OTOH, the change to the tree so that the double Happy end SP requires the wasted Great Merchant SP is unfortunate.

Rationalism is overrated as there are other ways to get more science. For example, if you ally city-states (and you really need to do so if you are going wide or have a large population, let alone if you are dominating), the Patronage tree has a SP that boosts science far more than Rationalism. The last SP in Rationalism is pointless for anyone going wide or dominating because the AI isn't going to be friends and thus won't be signing any RAs, anyway (and won't do so if you are a tech leader, at least generally).

Happiness is definitely not resolved by Renaissance for anyone playing standard sized maps and going wide or dominating, or even if you are just going with a large population. The Unhappy from pop dwarfs the Unhappy from cities, even puppets, and population is another way of gaining science.

Part of the issue is that the map algorithms treat luxuries as "local" so that the one or two luxuries around your capital will also be pretty much the sole luxuries you'll have even after expanding to four cities. You may get one or two others as single resources, but there will only be the original one or two that you have duplicates of for trading. Since the AI gets very anal very easily if you really try to win (i.e., undermine anything the AI does in its attempts to win), trading usually falls apart and thus you can't get the luxuries (Happy) that you need in mid to late game.

Obviously, if you have Happy problems, the opener for Rationalism is pointless as it is only 10% and only if you are Happy.

This can also become a bigger problem after Ideologies hit.

So, bottom line is that Rationalism is far from the OP source that is often said here.

Note that these factors are mitigated by smaller maps or certain other changes from standard play settings. For example, an Archipelago map doesn't need Rationalism because it's all about Frigates and dominating prior to when Rationalism would even matter.
 
Gold is everything in this game. If you have a lot of gold, you can do anything at all because you can buy anything at all (units, buildings, tiles, city-states, bribes). Also, you need a very strong gold supply to maintain both infrastructure (buildings) and any defensive force (units) plus any offensive force (and if you don't have defense you will be attacked almost always). The boosts in Commerce are far more than a "little money". OTOH, the change to the tree so that the double Happy end SP requires the wasted Great Merchant SP is unfortunate.

Rationalism is overrated as there are other ways to get more science. For example, if you ally city-states (and you really need to do so if you are going wide or have a large population, let alone if you are dominating), the Patronage tree has a SP that boosts science far more than Rationalism. The last SP in Rationalism is pointless for anyone going wide or dominating because the AI isn't going to be friends and thus won't be signing any RAs, anyway (and won't do so if you are a tech leader, at least generally).

Happiness is definitely not resolved by Renaissance for anyone playing standard sized maps and going wide or dominating, or even if you are just going with a large population. The Unhappy from pop dwarfs the Unhappy from cities, even puppets, and population is another way of gaining science.

Part of the issue is that the map algorithms treat luxuries as "local" so that the one or two luxuries around your capital will also be pretty much the sole luxuries you'll have even after expanding to four cities. You may get one or two others as single resources, but there will only be the original one or two that you have duplicates of for trading. Since the AI gets very anal very easily if you really try to win (i.e., undermine anything the AI does in its attempts to win), trading usually falls apart and thus you can't get the luxuries (Happy) that you need in mid to late game.

Obviously, if you have Happy problems, the opener for Rationalism is pointless as it is only 10% and only if you are Happy.

This can also become a bigger problem after Ideologies hit.

So, bottom line is that Rationalism is far from the OP source that is often said here.

Note that these factors are mitigated by smaller maps or certain other changes from standard play settings.

I'm gonna have to say I disagree with almost everything you say. I was talking from the perspective of what I'm pretty sure most people play - 4-6 cities - (when he said small I presumed he meant so small he needed rationalism to stay relatively competitive) and happiness is all but fixed by then. If you have no-one to trade with by the Renaissance, something seriously must be wrong. Normally I have my DoF's from the ancient/classical era until Industrial, but after that ideologies can muck it up.

And Patronage will never give you as much science as rationalism. Ignoring all RA's, and off the top of my head, rationalism gives you this:

+ 17% science from universities (that's 17% more in pretty much every city by the time you get it) and +1 science from trading posts (makes trading posts on jungle insanely powerful, but relatively minor)

+ 10% science in happiness

+ 2 science per specialist (that is an insane amount. That often gets me from 240 or 250 bpt to 350+ (I play on Quick if you're wondering)

+ 50% GS generation (or was it 25%?). That's also very major, as academies are just starting to wane in usefulness, so you can use that to save for bulbing at the end of the game

Compared to Patronage, unless you have tiny base science generation and have gone with every single CS on the map, that's massive. Normally with 5-6 of the available 12 city states I'm ally, and the patronage policy gets me a maybe... 20% increase max? Even with 1 policy in rationalism + opener I'm getting more than that.

I understand that you normally only have 2 or 3 duplicates, but call it 3. That's another 3 luxuries - I don't understand how everyone hates you at this point, even if you're warmongering just bribe them to DoW with you and your best buds forever - equivalent, you've got the happiness from tradition/liberty, you've got colosseums and circus maximus, etc. Then ideologies come in and they give so much happiness that I can't recall going into unhappiness in BNW after getting one, except when I had +2 tourism per turn and I was the only freedom.

The only point I half-agree with you is the importance of gold, but it's still secondary to science. Sure, you can afford a larger army with a massive economy, and you can rush-buy buildings. But I don't see why that's needed - if you get rationalism you'll often be at infantry vs riflemen, or at least GWI against riflemen. They don't stand a chance, you don't need the economy as you have the science. It's a major problem with all the Civ games - science is just way too important. Dunno how to change it.

I agree that the happiness policy at the end of commerce is crazy useful, but the opportunity cost is too high. Purchasing Landscneckts (spelling :p) is useless, the land trade routes are practically useless (as coastal trade routes are just better in almost every way), and that's already 2 useless policies. The others are mediocre, and the GM policy just wastes perfectly good GS or GE.


Note: I play completely standard settings, except Quick speed and often doing some non-normal maps like Continents Plus or archipelago to change things up. But what I'm saying is very similar to what the 'pros' say :)
 
Compared to Patronage, unless you have tiny base science generation and have gone with every single CS on the map, that's massive. Normally with 5-6 of the available 12 city states I'm ally, and the patronage policy gets me a maybe... 20% increase max? Even with 1 policy in rationalism + opener I'm getting more than that.

But with Patronage you don't only get Science, you also get all the other benefits from your city state allies: Culture, Food, Happiness, Faith, units, World Congress votes.
 
But with Patronage you don't only get Science, you also get all the other benefits from your city state allies: Culture, Food, Happiness, Faith, units, World Congress votes.

I wasn't trying to argue that :p I was simply meaning that the science doesn't compare to Rationalism's there, which is what AiTenshi was saying:

'For example, if you ally city-states (and you really need to do so if you are going wide or have a large population, let alone if you are dominating), the Patronage tree has a SP that boosts science far more than Rationalism'

But I would argue in 9/10 cases science is still more important, because it allows you to defend yourself more than those units could, get culture buildings and especially wonders first, get techs like agriculture more quickly, unlock happiness wonders, buildings and national wonders. The one thing science is useless at is faith, so that's one area that Patronage clearly wins at... but the others it gives more immediate boosts, but I would argue science is more important than them for wining in the long term.


I guess this is why Poland is so powerful, it can have both :p
 
Well if I do feel a slight lack of gold, I end up just getting the opener and maybe 1 or 2 commerce policies, but then fill rationism every time pretty much
 
I wasn't trying to argue that :p I was simply meaning that the science doesn't compare to Rationalism's there, which is what AiTenshi was saying:

'For example, if you ally city-states (and you really need to do so if you are going wide or have a large population, let alone if you are dominating), the Patronage tree has a SP that boosts science far more than Rationalism'

But I would argue in 9/10 cases science is still more important, because it allows you to defend yourself more than those units could, get culture buildings and especially wonders first, get techs like agriculture more quickly, unlock happiness wonders, buildings and national wonders. The one thing science is useless at is faith, so that's one area that Patronage clearly wins at... but the others it gives more immediate boosts, but I would argue science is more important than them for wining in the long term.


I guess this is why Poland is so powerful, it can have both :p

Patronage also is available two eras before Rationalism, so you'll be getting more science for a while and if you go for Rationalism you will have to catch up that science later.

Also, the main happiness wonders and national wonders are available before the Renaissance, or one tech in, Rationalism is not going to help you get them quicker.
 
Gold is everything in this game. If you have a lot of gold, you can do anything at all because you can buy anything at all (units, buildings, tiles, city-states, bribes). Also, you need a very strong gold supply to maintain both infrastructure (buildings) and any defensive force (units) plus any offensive force (and if you don't have defense you will be attacked almost always). The boosts in Commerce are far more than a "little money". OTOH, the change to the tree so that the double Happy end SP requires the wasted Great Merchant SP is unfortunate.

Rationalism is overrated as there are other ways to get more science. For example, if you ally city-states (and you really need to do so if you are going wide or have a large population, let alone if you are dominating), the Patronage tree has a SP that boosts science far more than Rationalism. The last SP in Rationalism is pointless for anyone going wide or dominating because the AI isn't going to be friends and thus won't be signing any RAs, anyway (and won't do so if you are a tech leader, at least generally).

Happiness is definitely not resolved by Renaissance for anyone playing standard sized maps and going wide or dominating, or even if you are just going with a large population. The Unhappy from pop dwarfs the Unhappy from cities, even puppets, and population is another way of gaining science.

Part of the issue is that the map algorithms treat luxuries as "local" so that the one or two luxuries around your capital will also be pretty much the sole luxuries you'll have even after expanding to four cities. You may get one or two others as single resources, but there will only be the original one or two that you have duplicates of for trading. Since the AI gets very anal very easily if you really try to win (i.e., undermine anything the AI does in its attempts to win), trading usually falls apart and thus you can't get the luxuries (Happy) that you need in mid to late game.

Obviously, if you have Happy problems, the opener for Rationalism is pointless as it is only 10% and only if you are Happy.

This can also become a bigger problem after Ideologies hit.

So, bottom line is that Rationalism is far from the OP source that is often said here.

Note that these factors are mitigated by smaller maps or certain other changes from standard play settings. For example, an Archipelago map doesn't need Rationalism because it's all about Frigates and dominating prior to when Rationalism would even matter.

No. Science is everything. Through science you get everything else, gold, production, food, more science. Every victory except domination requires you to tech to the end of the tech tree within about 300 turns or else the AI will win (at least on immortal). Domination is many times easier when you out tech your opponent, both because the more technologically advanced individual has better units, better infrastructure to support wars and probably more units too. Science is good above all else, rationalism gets you tons of science, therefore rationalism is good.
 
No. Science is everything. Through science you get everything else, gold, production, food, more science. Every victory except domination requires you to tech to the end of the tech tree within about 300 turns or else the AI will win (at least on immortal). Domination is many times easier when you out tech your opponent, both because the more technologically advanced individual has better units, better infrastructure to support wars and probably more units too. Science is good above all else, rationalism gets you tons of science, therefore rationalism is good.

Yes, science is king, and yes, rationalism is good. But being good shouldn't make it an auto-pick. Aesthetics will always be better for CV, and Patronage/Commerce for DV.
 
No. Science is everything. Through science you get everything else, gold, production, food, more science. Every victory except domination requires you to tech to the end of the tech tree within about 300 turns or else the AI will win (at least on immortal). Domination is many times easier when you out tech your opponent, both because the more technologically advanced individual has better units, better infrastructure to support wars and probably more units too. Science is good above all else, rationalism gets you tons of science, therefore rationalism is good.

No, as I said, gold is everything because you can buy anything with gold. Need science? Okay, buy the science and food buildings, buy city-states, etc. If all you have is science, you cannot do this and you cannot support your empire either within or from threats from the AI without.

Science does not lead to gold. Culture leads to gold through SPs. Trade also leads to gold... and you get trade via allying city-states, mostly. The only thing where science is related to gold is specific buildings and you'll get those no matter what because 1) you have to go through the techs in the tree anyway and 2) you have to build something every turn and will have turns where you need to build something at no cost of maintenance.

The point is that gold will automatically allow you to "outtech" anyone as well as do anything else, but only focusing on science only allow tech. On higher difficulties or many specific circumstances, that isn't enough.

I never said "ignore science." I said you do not need to focus on science and you certainly do not need Rationalism. Gold is far more important because it gets you everything else you need, including science (if you happen to need it at any point).

Rationalism does not get you "tons of science" in many cases. As I mentioned, there are many cases where Patronage can get you far more Science than Rationalism ever will. It depends on how you play as well as specific settings. Evidently, you play to maximize Rationalism returns, but there are other approaches that work fine but need other SPs (Patronage). As I also said, you don't even need to consider Rationalism on an Archipelago map because you should be done with the game before Rationalism would even be a factor.

Finally, people here need to stop offering strategy based on Immortal or Deity exploits of the game mechanics (e.g., science overflow slingshot) or selecting specific civs to play. The game is balanced around Prince as standard settings and is meant to be playable regardless of which civ you prefer to play (i.e., do not select a civ to play based on desired VC but rather because you want to play that civ). The higher difficulty settings actually undermine any playing of the game for strategy aside from strategies against the game mechanics (as opposed to actual strategy of dealing with the specific environment, resources, and AIs you meet, which is what a "strategy game" is supposed to be about, not figuring out how to exploit game mechanics that only work at due to high level AI bonuses).
 
Rationalism, always and ever!!!!!!!
Just cant imagine a single game without rationalism!!!!
Aesthetics, Commerce are a rare ways for me!!!!
 
You know.... Rationalism has gold right? It actually has MORE base city gold (to attract trade routes) than any other tree besides tradition.

Its not just science. And if you have no friends, you're not playing your wide diplo right.

Scholascitism is only good on deity, and for small civs (less science penalty). Its total output is also less than Rationalism, but it is more efficient than any single Rationalism policy. It also works counter to rationalism, in that the two +% rationalism policies don't apply to CS science.

But the biggest kicker for rationalism is the faith bought great scientists. You can't compete with that.

For conquest/diplo, it can be overkill, but it's hard to reach internet or spaceship in a timely manner without it.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
No jungle, low number of specialists, no friends for research agreements, if i have a situation like this, i must grab the rationalism opener. If I am low on faith per turn, i have less reasons to go full rationalism
 
Gold is everything in this game.
...
Rationalism is overrated as there are other ways to get more science.
...

Haha, good one there!!

In this game, science is by far the most important aspect of the game. With all the bouses from rationalism you get more than 50% extra science with the same empire, plus extras like bonuses for RAs, bonuses for GS generation and a free tech.

Unless you are far ahead on tech, is the best option.
 
You know.... Rationalism has gold right? It actually has MORE base city gold (to attract trade routes) than any other tree besides tradition.

Its not just science. And if you have no friends, you're not playing your wide diplo right.

Scholascitism is only good on deity, and for small civs (less science penalty). Its total output is also less than Rationalism, but it is more efficient than any single Rationalism policy. It also works counter to rationalism, in that the two +% rationalism policies don't apply to CS science.

But the biggest kicker for rationalism is the faith bought great scientists. You can't compete with that.

For conquest/diplo, it can be overkill, but it's hard to reach internet or spaceship in a timely manner without it.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

The OP posed a question and I answered it. Rationalism has some gold, and so does Exploration and other SPs. So? It doesn't have "more" because it depends on circumstances and I posted various examples where Rationalism is inferior to other choices. Faith isn't important if you don't focus on faith, and many circumstances do not have good FpT, so it's very easy to beat the finisher of buying GSes with Faith, especially since it requires wasting an SP on the RA boost policy (wasted in many circumstances, that is). My trade routes are normally to city-states, not other civs, and this works perfectly well for various play styles (and the game includes specific support for this approach as there is no "right" way to play wide diplo, only "right" for specific approaches).

Again, I never said "ignore science altogether" and the OP simply asked if there are times when Rationalism isn't needed, or at least is not the first choice for boosting science. Yes, there are many times when it is not needed, and not even preferred compared to what you get from other choices.

No jungle, low number of specialists, no friends for research agreements, if i have a situation like this, i must grab the rationalism opener. If I am low on faith per turn, i have less reasons to go full rationalism

Well, not really "must" get the opener because there are other options, especially Patronage, but the other contextual elements are good examples why Rationalism is way overrated here and inferior to other choices in many contexts. The opener is only okay if you manage to maintain positive happiness and there are many contexts where you won't do this, or you won't do it consistently. Plus, it's only 10%, and there are other ways to get far more science than the opener.
 
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