The Terrible History Thread

Yeah, I wasn't saying that it was remotely true, just that the argument usually references this practice. I suppose the argument isn't that the Serbs were the drivers of this process, but "Christianity" incorporated this tradition.
 
If you mean Christianity in all its variations builds upon older ideas then you are correct.

There is, however, a St. Vitus, whose name could be translated into St. Vid. It wouldn't surprise me if the particular customs of his veneration in Serbia retain some elements of pagan practice, but people who claim that the general practice of veneration of saints developed as backdoor polytheism really don't have anything to back it up from my experience.

Hero worship is a pretty ancient tradition I should think. At any rate, Christian theology developed intricate theories to match things like the veneration of saints, relics, icons and what not into what is theoretically supposed to be monotheistic religion. Personally I don´t see what worshipping bones, bits of cloth, pictures and other ´sacred´ objects has to do with God, but then I´m not a Christian.
 
Personally I don´t see what worshipping bones, bits of cloth, pictures and other ´sacred´ objects has to do with God, but then I´m not a Christian.

Neither do I and I'm Christian :)
 
I'm a Christian and I have engaged in veneration of saints and icons. This probably isn't the place to defend my religious practices, but my point is that tracing their origins to syncretism with Paganism is, at best, a gross oversimplification.
 
Wait, I'm confused. I thought it was pretty well established that Christianity built upon existing religious traditions when it came to a new area, which is why we have Easter and Christmas on major 'pagan' holidays, along with several other parts (I seem to remember LS writing something about a Bible produced under Charlemagne that sort of turned Jesus and his disciples into some sort of Saxon warband.)
 
(I seem to remember LS writing something about a Bible produced under Charlemagne that sort of turned Jesus and his disciples into some sort of Saxon warband.)

Really? That's awesome! If someone knows more, please share! :D
 
There can be no doubt that Pagan traditions influenced Christianity. But that is far different from saying Pagan traditions were the origin of those aspects of Christianity.
 
At any rate, Christian theology developed intricate theories to match things like the veneration of saints, relics, icons and what not into what is theoretically supposed to be monotheistic religion. Personally I don´t see what worshipping bones, bits of cloth, pictures and other ´sacred´ objects has to do with God, but then I´m not a Christian.

Christians don't worship those things - they venerate them - and that's not the same thing.

Still, it seems to me that monotheism has an inherent tendency to develop into something like a de facto polytheism. It happened in Judaism in the intertestamental period too. I don't see any reason to suppose that the development of icons, relics, and so on in Christianity had anything to do with pagan influence - I think it can be explained perfectly adequately in terms of Christianity's own internal logic, including the ideas it took over from Judaism.

(It's also the case that polytheism often seems to have an inherent tendency to develop into monotheism, too, which is equally interesting.)

Wait, I'm confused. I thought it was pretty well established that Christianity built upon existing religious traditions when it came to a new area, which is why we have Easter and Christmas on major 'pagan' holidays, along with several other parts

It is more complicated than that. First, sometimes Christianity has done that, and sometimes it hasn't. Different Christian missionaries have adopted very different attitudes to local traditions in different times and places. Compare e.g. the attitudes of Jesuit missionaries to China in the seventeenth century with those of British missionaries to Africa in the late nineteenth century.

In the case of the Christianisation of Europe, it's true that some pre-Christian traditions were incorporated into Christianity, such as the building of churches where temples had once stood (although I think this was less extensive than is often supposed). But others were not, such as the veneration of trees, which people like Boniface spent a lot of time cutting down. Festivals are a particularly difficult issue. I don't know of any good evidence that Christmas directly corresponded with any pagan festival, although it was obviously at around the time of Saturnalia and Yule. It coincided with Sol Invictus, but that itself was a late introduction to Rome and wasn't relevant to northern Europe. John Chrysostom says that he thinks Christmas was given the date it was so that the Christians had something to do while everyone else was recovering from Saturnalia and preparing for New Year, and that seems as good an explanation as any to me. Easter is even harder to pin down. It's often said that the very name "Easter" comes from a pagan goddess who was celebrated at this time - but what's less often said is that we know of the existence of that goddess only from a single reference in Bede, and we know pretty much nothing about her or the celebrations. I'm sure that a lot of pre-Christian elements got incorporated into the Christian festivals, but beyond that it's mostly speculation.
 
Easter has the most obvious explanation for its chosen date that is unrelated to pagan holidays - it's when Passover and the Crucifixion would have occurred.
 
What Easter is most probably related to is the vernal equinox (well, kind of). But that was only made a church formality at the Counsil of Nicaea. At what exact date it was celebrated in the preceeding almost three centuries, before the Counsil decided it should be on the first Sunday after the first full moon of spring, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet some money that it was smack in the middle of the equinox. After all, the line between the Resurrection and the beginning of spring is not exactly hard to draw.
 
There's also the fact that sometimes, a date will in fact just land on a pre-existing holiday. For example, All Saint's Day (and eve) is usually assumed to just have been a thin layer of paint over Samhain. But in the Middle Ages, All Saint's Day in Ireland was celebrated in April. It was only well, well, after any pagans were gone from Ireland that All Saint's Day landed on the same day as Samhain.
 
What Easter is most probably related to is the vernal equinox (well, kind of). But that was only made a church formality at the Counsil of Nicaea. At what exact date it was celebrated in the preceeding almost three centuries, before the Counsil decided it should be on the first Sunday after the first full moon of spring, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet some money that it was smack in the middle of the equinox. After all, the line between the Resurrection and the beginning of spring is not exactly hard to draw.

Why wouldn't it just be to celebrate an event that would have occurred literally right around Passover? I know there's some discrepancies between the two so they don't always line up, but isn't that just a quirk of switching between lunar and solar calendars?
 
Why wouldn't it just be to celebrate an event that would have occurred literally right around Passover? I know there's some discrepancies between the two so they don't always line up, but isn't that just a quirk of switching between lunar and solar calendars?

In 325 at Nicaea they fixed Easter according to the presumably obsolete lunar calendar. Or so it seems. The first Sunday after the first full moon after the first day of (astronomical) spring. If you read the last sentence again out loud you'll notice that they actually fixed this particular feast according to both the lunar and solar calendars. What I was getting at in my previous post, even if it might sound as a conspiracy theory (which it is), is that this decision was made consciously in order to "christianize" Easter. Instead of celebrating it on the first full moon after the equinox, or on the equinox itself, you celebrate it on the first Sunday after the full moon, the holy day. Also the celebration is no longer about Earth's fertility and the new harvest, but about the absolution of one's sins and soforth. The whole pagan "rebirth of nature" thing is transformed into a metaphorical "resurrection of the saviour" with all of its morally-superior perks...

What I really want to know now is what significance did the vernal equinox hold for the pre-Christian agricultural societies of the Middle East and the Mediterranean (I bet it was quite important), and if they were celebrating it by walking around town with palm leaves even before Christ? Also, did they use the solar or lunar calendar to plan their sowing?
 
Mize said:
Instead of celebrating it on the first full moon after the equinox, or on the equinox itself, you celebrate it on the first Sunday after the full moon, the holy day.

It seems like a compromise between a bunch of different calculations, which returned dates that were broadly similar.

Mize said:
The whole pagan "rebirth of nature" thing is transformed into a metaphorical "resurrection of the saviour" with all of its morally-superior perks...

You can't talk about 'pagans' as a coherent group, as a fair number of them would have snorted at the suggestion that 'pagans' were big into the 'rebirth of nature' or, hell, even 'nature'.
 
Masada, technically you're right, but I did ask some concrete questions. I'll rephrase them: was the spring equinox (or the full moon thereafter) important to the Middle Eastern and Mediterranean societies before they converted to Christianity? In what way? Had it anything to do with fertility and the new harvest? How did they celebrate it?

If you or anyone else here knows the answers to these, maybe we can connect some more dots and we'll see whether Easter is a genuine original Christian feast or just one more adapted earlier... custom. I'll refrain from the word pagan. :p
 
How does the mere fact that Eastern happens to fall at or near a given astrological event inevitably make it 'pagan'? (The lunar calender used to fix the data of Easter was Jewish for one thing.)

Actually, for that matter, why can't it have been borrowed from Zoroastrianism, which celebrates Nowruz, the New Year, on the Spring Equinox.
 
How does the mere fact that Eastern happens to fall at or near a given astrological event inevitably make it 'pagan'? (The lunar calender used to fix the data of Easter was Jewish for one thing.)

You're answering my questions with questions. I'm not saying it's inevitably pagan. I'm saying it's most probably... ancient, not even pagan. And I'm insinuating that it was incorporated in Christianity, not just by Christians saying "hey, let's steal those guys' holiday", but also by many other societies who were like: "Man, this Jesus guy is alright, but can I still slaughter a goat on X day?"

EDIT: Oh, and was it really Jewish? I know that even after the Julian reforms most of the Roman empire still used their own lunar calendar. Was it different from the Jewish one?
 
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