Civilizations

xmen510 · Aug 10, 2007

Any info on which Civs you will be representing in this Mod. That is something I am really looking forward to seeing. I have been keeping an Eye on this Mod since you first announced it and have been imatiently awaiting it's completing. Civ info has been one of the things I have really been waiting to find out.

Also will you have different Civs based on Eras or just the core groups?

Death900 · Aug 11, 2007

Copied from chamber of record, initial post by Elda King

Here are the planned civs of this mod. Feel free to discuss it.

HUMANS
We should have three divisions of humanity: the Edain, the Middle Men (peoples related to the Edain, but that haven't gone to Beleriand), and the Dark Men (the peoples that have served Morgoth or Sauron).
EDAIN
The Edain should be divided in the House of Hador - lead by HÃºrin (Aggressive, Organised) , Elendil (Wise, Seafaring) or Elessar (Expansive, Philosophical) - the House of BeÃ¶r - lead by Hyarmendacil (protective, Seafaring), Beren (Wise, Creative) or Elros (Industrious, Expansive)- and the House of Haleth - lead by Haleth (Protective, Creative), Ar-PharazÃ´n (Agressive, Seafaring), and Castamir (Expansive, Seafaring).
MIDDLE MEN
The Middle Men should be dividedin the ÃothÃ©od - lead by Eorl (Aggressive, Industrious), Helm (Protective, Expansive) or Ãomer (Aggressive, Wise) - and the Men of Rhovanion - lead by Bard (Financial, Creative) and Vidugavia (Agressive, Protective).
DARK MEN
The Dark Men shoul be the Haradrim - lead by Herumor (Aggressive, Financial), the Easterlings - lead by Ulfang (Aggressive, Creative), and the Dunlendings - lead by Freca (Expansive, Financial).

ELVES
The elves should be much more powerful than the Humans, but decay quickly with the past of the Ages. This could be done increasing the cost of their units in the later ages (so a elven unit in the first age might have the same cost of a human's one, but in the fourth age a elven unit should be much more expensive). We should divide them in the Sindar, the Avari and the Noldor:
NOLDOR
The Noldor should be divided in houses: the House of FÃ«anor - lead by Maedhros (Wise, Industrious), Caranthir (Aggressive, Expansive) or Celebrimbor (Industrious, Creative) - the House of Fingolfin - lead by Fingon (Organised, Wise), Turgon (Industrious, Protective) or Gil-Galad (Seafaring, Organised)- and the House of Finarfin -lead by Finrod (Protective, Wise), Orodreth (Expansive, Creative) or Galadriel (Philosophical, Wise).
SINDAR
The Sindar should be divided in: Nandor -lead by Denethor (Creative, Organised) - Falathrin -lead by CÃ*rdan (Seafaring, Financial) and Doriath - lead by Thingol (Protective, Philosophical) or Dior (Expansive, Organised).
AVARI
The Avari should be lead by Thranduil (Protective, Financial).

DWARVES
The dwarves should also decay, but much slower than the elves. We should divide the dwarves in the Longbeard Clan - Lead by Durin (Industrious, Philosophical) or DÃ¡in (Industrious, Organised) - and the Firebeard and Broadbeam Clans - lead by AzaghÃ¢l (Industrious, Financial).

THE SHADOW
The Shadow rpresents the Enemy, the forces of Morgoth (Destructive, Aggressive) and Sauron (Destructive, Protective). They should be very different from all others: a unstoppable horde, completely focused on destroying all the enemies, and uncapable of winning the game in any other way.

About Isengard and the Hobbits (that you didn't notice), I think they should not be included. By The Shadow, I have wanted to mean all the evil; Saruman and the orcs of the mountains weren't under direct control of Morgoth/Sauron, but they were all consequences of Morgoth lies and corruption, and they helped Sauron during the War of the Ring. The Dark Men aren't evil by they alone (they were Sons of IlÃºvatar), they only were corrupted by the Shadow, but in the end of the Third Age some made peace with the United Kingdom.
About the Hobbits, I don't think they are important enougth, and I'm thinking about making them units of the Humans.

About the Traits: I distributed them trying to don't repeat any pair of traits, so each leader is unique. The new traits are:
Destructive-> Combat II for all Melee and Archery units
Seafaring-> Navigation I for all sea units
Wise-> +50% Great People born rate and Wonder Production

thomas.berubeg · Aug 11, 2007

the opne change i can remember from that is that Saruman has been added as a Dunlending leader

xmen510 · Aug 11, 2007

Lots of good ideas there. Thanks.

thomas.berubeg · Aug 11, 2007

Just started, Replaced America with Dunlendings, and crashed the game

i'll try to figure out what i did wrong...

T_F · Aug 12, 2007

(Elda King's special characters mess up horribly in my browser...)

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Vanyar civ? They may have historically stayed with the Valar, but they wouldn't have to on a random map.

Elda King · Aug 17, 2007

T_F said:
(Elda King's special characters mess up horribly in my browser...)

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Vanyar civ? They may have historically stayed with the Valar, but they wouldn't have to on a random map.

The characters were made on another forum, so they mess up because of different system, even in my own PC...

And the mod has a "historical" scope, and it's the ages of the sun. There were no Vanyar involved in the happenings of the world, as there were no Valar, and there is no reason for putting them (except perhaps in a special scenario, with different ages and context).

T_F · Aug 17, 2007

I guess that's true (except the Valar did get involved at the end of the First Age).

T_F · Aug 21, 2007

List of diplomacy music ideas:

EDAIN - Minas Tirith theme (perfect bit in mind)
MIDDLE MEN - Rohan theme
DARK MEN - I'll see if the ROTK soundtrack has any Harad bits, or maybe the Isengard theme
NOLDOR - the Lórien theme (the bit at the very beginning of the Lothórien bit)
SINDAR - no idea
AVARI - no idea
DWARVES - I'll see what I can pull out of the Moria bit
THE SHADOW - the Minas Morgul theme, or something else if it happens to be more suited.

I've also got the perfect small bit for the 'at war' music - you know, how when you contact someone you're at war with or zoom into one of their cities (or if you zoom into one of your unhappy cities), it plays a warlike music?

thomas.berubeg · Aug 21, 2007

List of diplomacy music ideas:

EDAIN - Minas Tirith theme (perfect bit in mind)

there's three houses to the edain.

MIDDLE MEN - Rohan theme

there's more than one group of middle men, the Rohirim, and the men of Dale. anything for Dale?

DARK MEN - I'll see if the ROTK soundtrack has any Harad bits, or maybe the Isengard theme

For Dunland, we can use isengard, and for Harad, see if you can find anything

NOLDOR - the Lórien theme (the bit at the very beginning of the Lothórien bit)

There's more than one Civ here

SINDAR - no idea

AVARI - no idea

me either

DWARVES - I'll see what I can pull out of the Moria bit

there's two groups of dwarves. for one of them i had the bit when they walk into the great hall of moria in mind

THE SHADOW - the Minas Morgul theme, or something else if it happens to be more suited.

good

I can't find a copy of the old mod. (the buggy one) maybe Elda king can upload it?

T_F · Aug 21, 2007

thomas.berubeg said:
there's three houses to the edain.

I figured we'd use the same for all of them, but I can try to get Aragorn's thing for him.

there's more than one group of middle men, the Rohirim, and the men of Dale. anything for Dale?

Nope!

For Dunland, we can use isengard, and for Harad, see if you can find anything

If there's not, we may have to settle for something else.

There's more than one Civ here

Since LOTR doesn't revolve around Noldor like Quenta Silmarillion does, I picked the theme for the one Noldo in LOTR.

there's two groups of dwarves. for one of them i had the bit when they walk into the great hall of moria in mind

Then for the other one, we can have the bit where they're just in the plain caverns right after they get in. The bit where Gandalf goes, 'Let us hope that our presence may go unnoticed.'

good

Thanks!

I may have to email you the music, CivFanatics doesn't allow mp3 uploads. (dang)

thomas.berubeg · Aug 21, 2007

good, thanks.

T_F · Aug 21, 2007

SINDAR - no idea

Go me, I totally forgot about Rivendell. I'll use something from there.

EDIT: May use that for the Avari - I have an awesome 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' poem/song from the Extended I would love to use.

I've got more music than places to put it!

Edit again: Using the poem-song for Galadriel, the Lórien bit for someone else.
I can also use Nazgûl bits for Númenóreans, specially Ar-Pharazôn.

And if we do hobbits, I've got the perfect bit as well.

Love · Aug 21, 2007

What about religon themes?

T_F · Aug 21, 2007

Do we even know what the religions are for sure?

xmen510 · Aug 21, 2007

Ideas for religions are posted elsewhere, Wonders pg. 3 I believe.

T_F · Aug 21, 2007

Right then.

Ilúvatar Worship - maybe something from the poem-song I have for Galadriel's diplo
Melkor Worship - Nazgûl bits: the singing in Adûnaic (maybe nothing more than 'Bârî n’kathârâd')
Dwarvishness -something from the early Moria bit I picked - it even says something about Durin the Deathless.
(any other religions, tell me)

Also, an idea for Beren's diplo: the extended soundtrack has a bit with Aragorn singing part of the Lay of Leithian (which in the movie he calls the lay of Lúthien - stupid movie makers :mad:

) - maybe we could use that.

Maybe we should have a mod split this off into a Music thread.

Pariah · Aug 22, 2007

EDAIN
The Edain should be divided in the House of Hador - lead by HÃºrin (Aggressive, Organised) , Elendil (Wise, Seafaring) or Elessar (Expansive, Philosophical) - the House of Beor - lead by Hyarmendacil (protective, Seafaring), Beren (Wise, Creative) or Elros (Industrious, Expansive)- and the House of Haleth - lead by Haleth (Protective, Creative), Ar-PharazÃ´n (Agressive, Seafaring), and Castamir (Expansive, Seafaring).

Calling civilizations "House of Beor," "House of Hador" etc. seems a bit cumbersome, especially when talking about their empires or adjectives. Those houses were only the starting points for long histories, after all. And linking Castamir (a rebel leader in 3rd Age Gondor) to the 1st Age wood-folk of Haleth is a tenuous connection at best.

I would suggest an alternative division:
*Numenorean Empire: lead by Tar-Aldarion (Seafaring, Imperialistic), Tar-Ancalime (Financial, Creative), or Ar-Pharazon (Aggressive, Seafaring).
*Arnor Empire: lead by Elendil (Wise, Seafaring) or Aragorn Elessar (Expansive, Philosophical).
*Gondor Empire: lead by Isildur (Aggressive, Imperialistic), Hyarmedacil (Protective, Seafaring) or Eldacar (Protective, Industrious).
*Maybe also Edain Empire (representing 1st Age Men): lead by Beor (Wise, Creative), Hador (Aggressive, Organised), or Haleth (Protective, Philiosphical).

Men like Hurin, Turin, Beren etc. were more Great Generals then leaders.

MIDDLE MEN
The Middle Men should be dividedin the Ã‰othÃ©od - lead by Eorl (Aggressive, Industrious), Helm (Protective, Expansive) or Ã‰omer (Aggressive, Wise) - and the Men of Rhovanion - lead by Bard (Financial, Creative) and Vidugavia (Agressive, Protective).

DARK MEN
The Dark Men shoul be the Haradrim - lead by Herumor (Aggressive, Financial), the Easterlings - lead by Ulfang (Aggressive, Creative), and the Dunlendings - lead by Freca (Expansive, Financial).

These sound good, though I'm not sure about Dunlendings; how about adding
*Druedain or Pukel Men Empire: lead by Ghan-buri-Ghan (Protective, Organised).
*Variag Empire: lead by Sangahyando (Aggressive, Industrious).

ELVES

NOLDOR
The Noldor should be divided in houses: the House of FÃ«anor - lead by Maedhros (Wise, Industrious), Caranthir (Aggressive, Expansive) or Celebrimbor (Industrious, Creative) - the House of Fingolfin - lead by Fingon (Organised, Wise), Turgon (Industrious, Protective) or Gil-Galad (Seafaring, Organised)- and the House of Finarfin -lead by Finrod (Protective, Wise), Orodreth (Expansive, Creative) or Galadriel (Philosophical, Wise).

Again, the names sound awkward - and it breaks things up a bit too much. The different civs would quickly run out of city names.
*A single Noldor Empire would be enough: lead by Feanor (Creative, Aggressive), Fingolfin (Protective, Imperialistic) or Galadriel (Philosophical, Wise).
The various other Noldorin princes would help make up the numbers of Great People.

SINDAR
The Sindar should be divided in: Nandor -lead by Denethor (Creative, Organised) - Falathrin -lead by CÃ*rdan (Seafaring, Financial) and Doriath - lead by Thingol (Protective, Philosophical) or Dior (Expansive, Organised).

These were actually splinter groups from the TELERI. "Sindar" was only one of them. How about the following:
*Teleri Empire: lead by Olwe (Seafaring, Creative).
*Sindar Empire: lead by Thingol (Protective, Philosophical) or Melian (Creative, Protective).
*Nandor Empire: lead by Denethor (Creative, Organised) and
*Falas Empire: lead by Cirdan (Seafaring, Financial), just as you suggested.

I'd agree with T_F that the Vanyar should be included: they were important culturally, and did take part in the defeat of Morgoth. Saying that they don't count is like excluding the Khmer or Koreans from BTS, just because they never extended their influence as much as the Chinese or Japanese.

*Vanyar Empire: lead by Ingwe (Creative, Wise) or Indis (Industrious, Financial).

One shouldn't exclude the Hobbits, either. They were at least as significant as Dunlendings - in fact, I'd exlude the latter tribe if it's a question of sticking to a set number of civs. Most importantly, Hobbits feature so prominently in Tolkien's books that they undeniably vital to the overall flavour of Arda as a world.

*Hobbit Empire: lead by Gerontious Took (Philosphical, Industrious) or Bilbo Baggins (Protective, Financial).

I hope these ideas are of some use. :king:

thomas.berubeg · Aug 22, 2007

we'll let elda king decide on most of those...

however, we'er using Saruman and freca as dunlending leaders, so the Earlier units will be the Dunlending men, and later the Uruk-Hai.

Hobbits will be used as spies...

Pariah · Aug 22, 2007

I could provide city lists for each of the civs, if Elda King hasn't done so already.

Civilizations

Emperor

Chieftain

Wandering the World

Emperor

Wandering the World

Reynardine the Great

Prince

Reynardine the Great

Reynardine the Great

Wandering the World

Reynardine the Great

Wandering the World

Reynardine the Great

Deity

Reynardine the Great

Emperor

Reynardine the Great

Outside Influence

Wandering the World

Outside Influence

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